England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

kevohmsford · 17-03-2012 8:50pm

I thought it was crazy to bring on O'Gara for D'Arcy especially with McFadden available. O'Leary was just brutal when he came on, so many poor passes and kicks. Credit to England though they used their scrum to devastating effect.

nerd69 · 17-03-2012 8:51pm

kevohmsford wrote: »

I thought it was crazy to bring on O'Gara for D'Arcy especially with McFadden available. O'Leary was just brutal when he came on, so many poor passes and kicks. Credit to England though they used their scrum to devastating effect.

o gara i didn't hav an issue with i have to agree with you on o leary tho just shouldn't be playing at this level

17-03-2012 8:51pm

porterbelly wrote: »

Hagan should have stayed put, or signed and loaned back to Connacht for the year and he'd be further down the line of his development, with big games under his belt.

This day was coming, we've just been lucky that Mike Ross has been so durable to paper over the obvious cracks

The IRFU will now be adamant to put in place the new rules regarding NIQ's given todays circumstances. The sad thing is that we would probably have a viable alternative in Hagan to Ross if the foresight of the IRFU didn't stretch as far as Connacht

Completely disagree re Hagan.

Bit drunk now, but happy to discuss it during the week. Hagan's in a place now to make him a star. If the level he came to Leinster at wasn't good enough, then another year at Connacht wouldn't help.

nerd69 · 17-03-2012 8:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Completely disagree re Hagan.

Bit drunk now, but happy to discuss it during the week. Hagan's in a place now to make him a star. If the level he came to Leinster at wasn't good enough, then another year at Connacht wouldn't help.

if he's not playing he's not going to become a star and he's not going to start over Healy and ross

17-03-2012 8:54pm

nerd69 wrote: »

if he's not playing he's not going to become a star and he's not going to start over Healy and ross

Just like McFadden was never gonna get any games with D'Arcy in the team?

Tox56 · 17-03-2012 8:54pm

nerd69 wrote: »

if he's not playing he's not going to become a star and he's not going to start over Healy and ross

He started over Ross for the HEC game against Montpellier, and he's getting plenty of gametime whenever Ross goes on international duty, and even when Ross is home the rotation of players keeps him on the pitch often. I don't think he is ready to play full-time at the level of Ross, but he is developing well.

nerd69 · 17-03-2012 8:57pm

Tox56 wrote: »

He started over Ross for the HEC game against Montpellier, and he's getting plenty of gametime whenever Ross goes on international duty, and the rotation of players keeps him on the pitch often. I don't think he is ready to play full-time at the level of Ross, but he is developing well.

i cant argue to much iv not seen a lot of him just heard good things we should have more than 2 tight heads it this country tho

porterbelly · 17-03-2012 9:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Completely disagree re Hagan.

Bit drunk now, but happy to discuss it during the week. Hagan's in a place now to make him a star. If the level he came to Leinster at wasn't good enough, then another year at Connacht wouldn't help.

He had taken major strides last year in Connacht and should have been called up to the squad for the Autumn internationals and again for the 6 nations, such was his form.

He has gone backwards this year, I'm not saying he won't reach his potential at Leinster but he needed to kick on playing HC rugby and take it to the next level. Perhaps one step back to make 2 forward, but I'm disappointed because at this stage, give the rate of progression I saw of him at Connacht, I certainly thought he'd be a viable alternative to Ross

thomond2006 · 17-03-2012 9:08pm

Why was TOL brought on so early? Did Reddan get hurt?

That was an utter shambles of a performance, and once again they bring on ROG for D'Arcy (who was average again), what gives?!

I feel for Tom Court, the guy just isn't a tighthead.

And our next 3 games are......3 games vs New Zealand.

You gotta give credit to England, they are a decent side and will go places. Lancaster has got to get the job at this stage, although he would be without Andy Farrell because Saracens won't release him any further.

Auvers · 17-03-2012 9:13pm

soundly and deservedly beaten today, but I do think it was bridge to far after the French replay

one or more of the front row must of been carrying some kind of injury today as the capitulation of the Irish scrum was shocking

Anyway on the the Heineken

irishbucsfan · 17-03-2012 9:17pm

How are we looking in terms of ranking points?

mfceiling · 17-03-2012 9:21pm

touts wrote: »

This is the players not the coach. It will finally give him the ammo to dump the dead weight like DOC Heaslip Court Reddan and TOL

Sorry but the coach had a chance to get rid of the dead weight months ago.

DOC was kept out of the Munster team by Ryan but yet made the national team ahead of him.

TOL shouldn't be near a international team but is repeatedly called upon.

D'Arcy has been a great servant but no player was looked at in that position to replace or rotate him.

Players like tuohy, Henry and to a lesser extent Marshall couldn't get within an asses roar of the team even if they agreed to play for free.

So to say a coach can get rid of dead weight now is ridiculous...he had opportunity to do it, but barring death no one can be dropped from this team.

fryup · 17-03-2012 9:23pm

well done England,

but first try wasn't one

Benny Cake · 17-03-2012 9:25pm

mfceiling wrote: »

TOL shouldn't be near a international team but is repeatedly called upon.

Do we really need to explain the TOL selection again???

Richard Hillman · 17-03-2012 9:26pm

Irish rugby has changed so much in the last number of years that when games turned into a forward battle in wet conditions it used to be in our favour. Now when it happens its a huge handicap to us. It wasnt just the scrum our forwards were beaten in, it was rucking and mauling. Something that we used to revel in. We are now a flare team. Even Munster have turned into a flare team. Im not saying its a bad thing (I like that we are a flare team) its just the way it is.

Todays game reminded me of last years 6 nations with countless penalties and knock ons. We have eradicated the knock ons of late but today it came back with a vengeance. It was frustrating to see.

doomed · 17-03-2012 9:27pm

We were humiliated. I don't fault the effort - every man played his heart out but some of our guys are nowhere near as good as we think they are and some of the others are so far over the hill that they can't see it even on a clear day.

Its pretty clear that Kidney has nothing more to offer. Well done with Munster and grand slam but its time to step aside

Judgement Day · 17-03-2012 9:28pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why was TOL brought on so early? Did Reddan get hurt?

That was an utter shambles of a performance, and once again they bring on ROG for D'Arcy (who was average again), what gives?!

I feel for Tom Court, the guy just isn't a tighthead.

And our next 3 games are......3 games vs New Zealand.

You gotta give credit to England, they are a decent side and will go places. Lancaster has got to get the job at this stage, although he would be without Andy Farrell because Saracens won't release him any further.

I don't think Reddan was injured and certainly TOL had his usual impact - box kicks straight out and passes thrown about like confetti. Himself and D'Arcy should never appear for Ireland again. There seemed to be no game plan at all and once the scrum came apart it was game over. A dismal spectacle except for some good work by Kearney and Earls. Time now for a new coach - never thought I'd say it - although it might be better to let Deccie take the flak for the impending tour down under rather than a new boy.

dougieruggie · 17-03-2012 9:29pm

Here is my analyis. Brutally honest and free from bias.

Front Row

Cian Healy - You can't really fault Healy at all this tournament. Hes been excellent and one of our stand out performers in most of the games. At 23 he genuinely has a chance of being world class at loosehead.

Rory Best - He has also had an excellent tournament. He has been excellent around the park but he does need to work on his throws. Great leadership, lots of aggression and excellent in defence. He will never be world class but he can certainly become a Lions tourist.

Mike Ross - Solid and unspectacular. He has done well in the scrums until today. While he is normally solid he was awful today. Perhaps he was injured for most of the time he was on but either way, we need to be developing a back up. Hes never going to be world class, hes average by international standards but he does a job.

Obviously theres Jamie Hagan, who we could develop but he seems to have his own issues at scrum time. I am just wondering if it would be a good idea to revert McGrath back to tighthead. McGrath seems to relish scrummaging and also gets around the park. Perhaps he should move to Munster where he might get more opportunities.

Second Row

O'Callaghan - He should never have been there in the first place. On his way out and completely ineffective. Offers no carrying threat and doesn't seem to do anything. The 'unseen' work justification is as ridiculous as the 'lifting' justifcation for Hayes. He simply has to go.

Dan Touhy is the obvious replacement. Behind Touhy you'd have to look at Toner who is massive at the lineout and has begun to carry with much more threat. Both are streets ahead of O'Callaghan in my opinion. In the background you have Copeland recently signing for Cardiff Blues who oozes class. I've seen this guy play and hes incredible.

Touhy is definitely international class already, Toner is young but he was excellent against NZ and already has a MOTM to his name for Ireland - lots of potential but it remains to be seen whether he'll be international class. Copeland looks amazing at AIL but we'll have to see if he can make the jump up (though to be top try scorer in the AIL as a second row is insanely impressive).

Ryan - Ryan has really come into his own and taken his chances. Hes aggressive, hes a work horse and hes proficient in the lineout without being exceptional. Hes never going to be world class but hes definitely international class.

At 27 hes young, himself and Touhy should be the future. Right now however I'd have him behind POC for the sole reason that we need more ball carriers in the pack and Ryan isn't as good a ball carrier as Touhy.

Backrow

Ferris - One of our best players all tournament. Hes world class and can't get enough praise. But on a day when Heaslip was criticized for being anonymous and outplayed by his opposite number, I havent seen anyone mention Ferris who was more anonymous and more outplayed by his opposite number, Croft. Anyway, no issue there as hes not superman and one average game doesn't change that.

Sean O'Brien - Brilliant today and really played the role of 7 well. However this season while hes been very good he hasn't been world class like he was last season. Hes still the best 7 by a long shot, but hes definitely regressed a little. The fact is, Ireland were much more effective when he was breaking tackles for fun. He can still do that at 7, he did it all world cup.

Heaslip - Very quiet these days. Not poor by any stretch of the imagination despite what many will say here but hes just been solid. Not spectacular. Once again Heaslip is world class but hes been playing like someone at international level. Hes still excellent for Leinster and my personal feelings are he is not happy with the Irish set up (though that is just a hinch)

Scrumhalf

Reddan - The best scrum half of the lot and the right choice but still nowhere near world class and very average by international standards. Did well today and it was a disgrace he was taken off but hes nowhere near the standard of most of the top scrumhalfs. International class, just about.

Murray - Too raw. Poor decision making, slow passing and just doesn't seem to justify the hype. Could become brilliant but more than likely another TOL in my opinion. Not international class, yet.

TOL - Wouldn't even start him for a top AIL team.

Outhalf

Sexton - Did everything right today. His garryowens were perfect, he had flawless passing depsite the conditions, 90% success rate for entire 6N in kicking and was excellent in defence. He is world class but not consistently for Ireland. The best OH in the 6N but that isn't saying too much.

O'Gara - Useless when he came on today. Offers nothing to the Irish team and unfortunately the game has long since moved on. Its time for him to move aside and let players like Madigan get their chance. Was once international class, now its debateable to be honest.

Centres

D'arcy - Finished. Not even international class anymore. His tackling and ability to make yards is gone something which he used to excell at. Its an utter disgrace that McFadden wasn't given a shot at 12. However McFadden will never be more than solid at international level.

I don't think JJ or Macken are our answer either unfortunately. There seems to be a lack of 12s and I'm wondering what ever happened to that big Ulster centre Marshall? To be honest I really don't think Spence is all that good either. McSherry looks like he could be ok but none of the young lads really fill you with confience.

I would genuinely love to see Madigan at 12. I think he has all the attributes but unfortunately the game seems to have moved on to big 12s and he certainly isn't big.

12 will be a big problem for Ireland it seems. Luke Fitzgerald possibly though once again he doesn't have the bulk (although hes a ferocious tackler)

Earls - Did well all tournament but like McFadden will only ever be solid at international level. Hes never going to be world class and to be honest I dont think we have any 13s coming through who could be world class. Cave, Griffin, O'Malley, none seem to fit that bill. One option is to try D.Kearney at 13 (hes played a lot there)

Wings
Bowe - Excellent wing, just short of world class. Quiet today but good overall tournament.

Trimble - Poor tournament overall for him. Really offered nothing all tournament. Fitzgerald deserved to be in the squad at least. Fitzgerald on form is world class but how long ago was that?

Full Back
Kearney - World class. Our best performer all tournament. Hes young, hes a leader and hes excellent.

Behind Kearney we have Jones who wont be world class but looks like he could be international class and Layden coming up looks good. D.Kearney is another option at full back.

World Class Players
Rob Kearney
Stephen Ferris
Paul O'Connell (though injured at the moment)

World Class but not playing World Class
Jamie Heaslip
Sean O'Brien
Jonathan Sexton (not consistently)
Luke Fitzgerald
Brian O'Driscoll (dont think he's getting back to that standard to be honest)

Potential to be World Class
Cian Healy
Dan Touhy
Donnacha Ryan
(I'm being a bit generous to Touhy and Ryan here)

Players who must be Abandoned:
ROG
TOL
Court
DOC
D'arcy

Players who must be Given a Chance
Dan Touhy
Ian Madigan
Marhsall
McFadden
D.Kearney
J.McGrath/Hagan (more chances with Leinster first though)

Kidney must go
I can't stress that enough.

Quint2010 · 17-03-2012 9:30pm

So our season ends with 2 home wins over the Scots and the Italians, a draw against a sub standard French team in a match where we contrived to throw away an eleven point half time lead, a home defeat against Wales and a trouncing at the hands of England. No excusing the performance but the four games in four weeks took its toll. But we were terrible today. I would like a new coach brought in with fresh ideas. But we are stuck with Kidney. Why o why did the IRFU give this guy a fresh new contract before the World Cup? Ridiculous.

washman3 · 17-03-2012 9:34pm

Full credit must go to England on a devastating performance. coming from such a low base after the shambolic world cup under the egomaniac Martin Johnston,Lancaster has done a great job.
some posters here too harsh on Tom Court,many of whom were praising him to the hilt a short few weeks ago. same posters who lambasted Buckley calling for him to be replaced by Court..

for all the talk of this golden generation,we've just won 1 Grand Slam, thanks mainly to the incredible BOD coupled with the fact that Wales didnt have a place kicker to kick a simple 40yd penalty directly in front of the posts on that famous day.
Wales have won 3 G/S in 7yrs,without a tenth on the media hype and general bulls###t talk.
after today we now know that Scotland and the worst team in 6N, Italy marginally better,Ireland marginally better than an improving Italy.
then the gap becomes much bigger,Wales on top followed closely by an emerging England. we look forward to some titanic battles between these two over the next few years.
The 6N results tell us little or nothing about France, who seemingly didnt give a hoot about this years competition, much in the same way that French clubs treat H/Cup. But we can be sure of one thing,they will be contesting the 2015 semi-final. Along with their TOP14, this is where their priorities now lie.
Irelands present shortcomings are the sum of the last few yrs efforts to appease the provincial bandwagon expectations. While now our problems are lack of props,in 3-4yrs it may be at outhalf,fullback,flankers. who knows.? The bigger picture must be looked at. Otherwise we will be wooden spoon contenders in the near future.;)

Monty Burnz · 17-03-2012 9:36pm

dougieruggie wrote: »

Here is my analyis. Brutally honest and free from bias.

Excellent assessment. I agree with every point.

jayteecork · 17-03-2012 9:38pm

washman3 wrote: »

Full credit must go to England on a devastating performance. coming from such a low base after the shambolic world cup under the egomaniac Martin Johnston,Lancaster has done a great job.
some posters here too harsh on Tom Court,many of whom were praising him to the hilt a short few weeks ago. same posters who lambasted Buckley calling for him to be replaced by Court..
for all the talk of this golden generation,we've just won 1 Grand Slam, thanks mainly to the incredible BOD coupled with the fact that Wales didnt have a place kicker to kick a simple 40yd penalty directly in front of the posts on that famous day.
Wales have won 3 G/S in 7yrs,without a tenth on the media hype and general bulls###t talk.
after today we now know that Scotland and the worst team in 6N, Italy marginally better,Ireland marginally better than an improving Italy.
then the gap becomes much bigger,Wales on top followed closely by an emerging England. we look forward to some titanic battles between these two over the next few years.
The 6N results tell us little or nothing about France, who seemingly didnt give a hoot about this years competition, much in the same way that French clubs treat H/Cup. But we can be sure of one thing,they will be contesting the 2015 semi-final. Along with their TOP14, this is where their priorities now lie.
Irelands present shortcomings are the sum of the last few yrs efforts to appease the provincial bandwagon expectations. While now our problems are lack of props,in 3-4yrs it may be at outhalf,fullback,flankers. who knows.? The bigger picture must be looked at. Otherwise we will be wooden spoon contenders in the near future.;)

Wales were haunted.

England were the best team in this year's 6N and deserved the GS.

I cannot stress how lucky Wales are. Poor outfit, should have lost to both Ireland and England. And France even though they were s hit had a great chance to deprive them of the GS.

Hardin..(I can't spell him) had a great chance to level matters and taking 3 points? WTF? And Tran Duc throwing the ball away - what a f tool.

My name is Mud · 17-03-2012 9:40pm

Dougieruggie.... Darren cave???

porterbelly · 17-03-2012 9:45pm

My name is Mud wrote: »

Dougieruggie.... Darren cave???

+Eoin Griffin and Tiernan O Halloran

washman3 · 17-03-2012 9:45pm

jayteecork wrote: »

Wales were haunted.

England were the best team in this year's 6N and deserved the GS.

I cannot stress how lucky Wales are. Poor outfit, should have lost to both Ireland and England. And France even though they were s hit had a great chance to deprive them of the GS.

Hardin..(I can't spell him) had a great chance to level matters and taking 3 points? WTF? And Tran Duc throwing the ball away - what a f tool.

dont agree, Wales were the best team overall. they "made" their luck.
remember, they could/should have led us by 20pts at halt time in L/road.
they stepped up to the mark V England wnen it mattered most.
Harinordiquy(spell??) made a split second decision,watch it again,dont think the player outside him would have made it anyway.??
like a said,France didnt give a hoot about this years 6N

Sean Kinsella · 17-03-2012 9:48pm

Worst (and most wretched) defeat I've seen for many a long year.

Dismantled in the tight and dissected in the loose.

Disgraceful.

Kidney should consider his position, (while the IRFU pack his bags and whistle up a taxi), but there's more chance of Connacht winning the HC, unbeaten.

Sean

Judgement Day · 17-03-2012 9:49pm

Having scoffed at George Hook last week for prematurely announcing Owen Farrell as being better than Jonny Wikinson, I take it all back. After his performance today, I am official anointing Owen Farrell as the successor to the 'Chosen One' aka Jonny Wilkinson. There have been other pretenders to the throne but Owen is the real deal. Who knows, if can stay injury free he may even equal Jonny's achievements.

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thomond2006 · 17-03-2012 9:51pm

So you're ditching your man love for Wilko JD? Foreshame.

Typical fairweather man love.

jayteecork · 17-03-2012 9:52pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Having scoffed at George Hook last week for prematurely announcing Owen Farrell as being better than Jonny Wikinson, I take it all back. After his performance today, I am official anointing Owen Farrell as the successor to the 'Chosen One' aka Jonny Wilkinson. There have been other pretenders to the throne but Owen is the real deal. Who knows, if can stay injury free he may even equal Jonny's achievements.

I think he's a disgrace. A bastard who was spawned by his father when he was only 16.

17-03-2012 9:52pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Having scoffed at George Hook last week for prematurely announcing Owen Farrell as being better than Jonny Wikinson, I take it all back. After his performance today, I am official anointing Owen Farrell as the successor to the 'Chosen One' aka Jonny Wilkinson. There have been other pretenders to the throne but Owen is the real deal. Who knows, if can stay injury free he may even equal Jonny's achievements.

Thought he was ****ing brilliant.

What a start to the 6N for the lad. Scary for us

England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

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