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Why is sexism such a difficult topic?
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hatrickpatrick wrote: »Really?
Take a look at this article.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/875448-topman-pulls-t-shirts-with-sexist-and-offensive-slogans-from-uk-stores
Now take a look at these, which are openly sold in tons of girls' clothes shops.
http://www.crazydogtshirts.com/catalog/boysarestupid.bmp
Once again, double standards.
Why should men tolerate being told to watch what they say, if vice versa is not also applied?
I agree it's a double standard, and I think both the male and female t-shirts should have been withdrawn simply because they're really stupid and childish and people shouldn't be encouraged to be stupid and childish.
But I think the reason there was more backlash against the men's t-shirts was because the slogans are coming from the mouths of men, who are still slightly more privileged than women in our society, and often physically stronger, so the slogans could be seen as intimidating and as discrimination by those with more power against those with less.
I personally agree with you to an extent and think that because the gender divide has lessened somewhat, those arguments against the male slogans are less valid than before, and both types of t-shirts are sexist.
If I saw someone of either gender wearing them I'd think them silly and question why they'd want something so stupid emblazoned across their chest.
I will say though, that this is not really a big deal overall, and there are bigger examples of sexism to be tackled. Though I guess casual sexism could be a gateway to greater sexism.hardbackwriter wrote: »Marge is an angel , delightful , she's certainly not shrill and I think most feminists would agree , definatley not a feminist, Lisa is the liberal and feminist character and is quite overbearing and shrill
I wish youtube had a clip of the montage of annoyed harrumphs played when Marge denies nagging Homer in the Brad Goodman episode.
She's inconsistently characterised to be honest: sometimes she is the voice of reason, but sometimes she's a boring nagger.0 -
Can someone from the feminist camp outline how their or others lives have been negatively effected by sexism?Feisar, if this thread is still open when I get home from work, I will give you a detailed response to how sexism has affected my life.
Feisar, as promised, I'll give you that reply now. I am going to appeal to anyone reading this to be gentle with their responses. Much of this is extremely personal and still painful, so I would appreciate if people would treat it kindly. Thank you in advance.
So *deep breath* on to mega post!
I'm not exactly sure where to begin with it all so I guess I'll start from the beginning. I was a smart child. Inquisitive, curious and always reading. From the start of my life, I can remember getting hassle for it from family members, based solely on the fact that I was a girl. I lost count of the number of times I was told, "It's possible to be too smart", by both aunts and uncles. The same assertion was never levelled at my male cousins or siblings.
It was made apparent to all the girls in our family that they would have to pull their weight. The girls ironed, cleaned, cooked, washed dishes from a very young age (maybe 7 or 8) while the boys were off playing. Cries of "Why isn't he helping?" were roundly ignored or sometimes shouted at. The girls were taught to shut up and get on with it or face anger or disdain.
This translated into a brother who demanded that his sisters cook for him or clean up: the gender roles were set.
As I grew, I was labelled a tomboy. I used to be quite proud of the term until I realised that this was just because I liked to play in the dirt or climb trees or playing with pets. I hadn't much interest in dolls and looking at the skinny, big-chested Barbies or over-sexualised Bratz dolls, I'm kind of glad of that now.
I was very creative and liked to work with my hands. I even had this crappy little woodworking kit that wouldn't cut a thick slice of paper but I loved it. When I was deciding on a secondary school, I asked to go to the only mixed secondary school, which offered woodworking, metalwork and the most amazing science lab that I had ever seen. The boy's school also offered all these subjects. Pig foetuses in jars, big vials and bottles of chemicals and people performing simple experiments were shown to us on the open day. I was in nerd heaven. I begged to go, so excited to get my hands dirty and was told, no. I would only be chasing boys. It seemed exceptionally cruel that my parents would allow me on the open day only to say no for a reason that made no sense to me. I had no interest in boys at the time. (In fact, I didn't have my first boyfriend till I was 17 -- makes sense in light of the next part of my post.) Anyway, off I was sent to the girl's school to do "female" subjects like home economics and languages. That was less than 15 years ago.
The biggest motivation for my feminism is what came at a young age.
When I was about 7 or 8 was when the sexual abuse started. An older male figure saw me as property because of my gender and abused me for two, maybe three years. It shattered my innocence and sent me into a depression that took me 20 years to get over. It also set up another understanding very early on that my rights over my own sexuality were not my own decision and the pattern of a (much) older male taking advantage of my vulnerability and gender, which would repeat twice more before I was a teenager.
One man was a family member; two, who sexually assaulted me when I was 14 and 15 (one of those after plying me with drink), were not related to me or each other in any way. As I entered late teens/early twenties, I had blossomed into a body that I had no idea what to do with and feared my own sexuality as it had never brought good things before. It again made me vulnerable for predatory men, who took any excuse to grope me, make lewd comments or treat me like an object. I began to drink to cope and self harm. As a result of being very drunk one night, I have a vague recollection of a close "friend" walking me home. On the steps on a hill in public, he proceeded to have sex with me while I fell asleep. I was so drunk I could barely speak, but that didn't seem to bother him. I don't know if he wore a condom. I no longer drink.
I am very aware that men and boys are abused and am just as horrified by that as by assault and abuse of girls, but there is no denying that sexually motivated violence is a gendered crime. Far, far more women are abused or raped than men and I wish I could say I had it worse than other girls I knew, but the fact of the matter is, I could reel off a very long list of women I know who have suffered sexual abuse and violence.
When my parents separated, despite saying I wished to stay with my dad who was the better caregiver at the time, custody was given to my mother as the court system assumed that because of her predefined gender role, she was the better custodian. I am aware that is also sexist against my dad, but shows how deeply engrained the "woman as nurturer" stereotype goes.
Thus began my interest in feminism and the realisation that I had some power over my life. My role was not defined by what I had been taught a girl should be like, nor should I ignore the disturbing fact that I was not the only girl, not by a long shot, who had faced sexual violence or been taken advantage of.
There are many other reasons -- the fact that the legislation of the X Case has still not been enacted and I could still have to travel to England if carrying a child would kill me; the increasing questioning of when I will be getting married and having kids and the horror when I say I want neither (incidentally, my brother is six years older, single and childless, and fields far, far less of these questions than I do); the fact that boyfriends and male friends have frequently tried to tell me that they are smarter than me, apropos of nothing; the fact that my heavy metal/alt/grunge tastes were treated with derision and suspicion by male fans and friends, who did their best to trip me up with the third degree on my tastes; the fact that it was assumed I was lesbian because I didn't dress a certain way or have too much interest in men (understandably, IMO, given my history); the list goes on.
My interest in feminism does not negate my interest in the rights or issues of other groups--races, ethnic groups, fathers, people with disabilities or anyone else discriminated against. It simply forms the basis of my understanding of my own gender and the issues facing it.
TLDR; I am not a single ideology. I am a person with facets and interests and am not defined but merely influenced by the feminist ideology.0 -
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Feisar, as promised, I'll give you that reply now. I am going to appeal to anyone reading this to be gentle with their responses. Much of this is extremely personal and still painful, so I would appreciate if people would treat it kindly. Thank you in advance.
So *deep breath* on to mega post!
I'm not exactly sure where to begin with it all so I guess I'll start from the beginning. I was a smart child. Inquisitive, curious and always reading. From the start of my life, I can remember getting hassle for it from family members, based solely on the fact that I was a girl. I lost count of the number of times I was told, "It's possible to be too smart", by both aunts and uncles. The same assertion was never levelled at my male cousins or siblings.
It was made apparent to all the girls in our family that they would have to pull their weight. The girls ironed, cleaned, cooked, washed dishes from a very young age (maybe 7 or 8) while the boys were off playing. Cries of "Why isn't he helping?" were roundly ignored or sometimes shouted at. The girls were taught to shut up and get on with it or face anger or disdain.
This translated into a brother who demanded that his sisters cook for him or clean up: the gender roles were set.
As I grew, I was labelled a tomboy. I used to be quite proud of the term until I realised that this was just because I liked to play in the dirt or climb trees or playing with pets. I hadn't much interest in dolls and looking at the skinny, big-chested Barbies or over-sexualised Bratz dolls, I'm kind of glad of that now.
I was very creative and liked to work with my hands. I even had this crappy little woodworking kit that wouldn't cut a thick slice of paper but I loved it. When I was deciding on a secondary school, I asked to go to the only mixed secondary school, which offered woodworking, metalwork and the most amazing science lab that I had ever seen. The boy's school also offered all these subjects. Pig foetuses in jars, big vials and bottles of chemicals and people performing simple experiments were shown to us on the open day. I was in nerd heaven. I begged to go, so excited to get my hands dirty and was told, no. I would only be chasing boys. It seemed exceptionally cruel that my parents would allow me on the open day only to say no for a reason that made no sense to me. I had no interest in boys at the time. (In fact, I didn't have my first boyfriend till I was 17 -- makes sense in light of the next part of my post.) Anyway, off I was sent to the girl's school to do "female" subjects like home economics and languages. That was less than 15 years ago.
The biggest motivation for my feminism is what came at a young age.
When I was about 7 or 8 was when the sexual abuse started. An older male figure saw me as property because of my gender and abused me for two, maybe three years. It shattered my innocence and sent me into a depression that took me 20 years to get over. It also set up another understanding very early on that my rights over my own sexuality were not my own decision and the pattern of a (much) older male taking advantage of my vulnerability and gender, which would repeat twice more before I was a teenager.
One man was a family member; two, who sexually assaulted me when I was 14 and 15 (one of those after plying me with drink), were not related to me or each other in any way. As I entered late teens/early twenties, I had blossomed into a body that I had no idea what to do with and feared my own sexuality as it had never brought good things before. It again made me vulnerable for predatory men, who took any excuse to grope me, make lewd comments or treat me like an object. I began to drink to cope and self harm. As a result of being very drunk one night, I have a vague recollection of a close "friend" walking me home. On the steps on a hill in public, he proceeded to have sex with me while I fell asleep. I was so drunk I could barely speak, but that didn't seem to bother him. I don't know if he wore a condom. I no longer drink.
I am very aware that men and boys are abused and am just as horrified by that as by assault and abuse of girls, but there is no denying that sexually motivated violence is a gendered crime. Far, far more women are abused or raped than men and I wish I could say I had it worse than other girls I knew, but the fact of the matter is, I could reel off a very long list of women I know who have suffered sexual abuse and violence.
When my parents separated, despite saying I wished to stay with my dad who was the better caregiver at the time, custody was given to my mother as the court system assumed that because of her predefined gender role, she was the better custodian. I am aware that is also sexist against my dad, but shows how deeply engrained the "woman as nurturer" stereotype goes.
Thus began my interest in feminism and the realisation that I had some power over my life. My role was not defined by what I had been taught a girl should be like, nor should I ignore the disturbing fact that I was not the only girl, not by a long shot, who had faced sexual violence or been taken advantage of.
There are many other reasons -- the fact that the legislation of the X Case has still not been enacted and I could still have to travel to England if carrying a child would kill me; the increasing questioning of when I will be getting married and having kids and the horror when I say I want neither (incidentally, my brother is six years older, single and childless, and fields far, far less of these questions than I do); the fact that boyfriends and male friends have frequently tried to tell me that they are smarter than me, apropos of nothing; the fact that my heavy metal/alt/grunge tastes were treated with derision and suspicion by male fans and friends, who did their best to trip me up with the fifth degree on my tastes; the fact that it was assumed I was lesbian because I didn't dress a certain way or have too much interest in men (understandably, IMO, given my history); the list goes on.
My interest in feminism does not negate my interest in the rights or issues of other groups--races, ethnic groups, fathers, people with disabilities or anyone else discriminated against. It simply forms the basis of my understanding of my own gender and the issues facing it.
TLDR; I am not a single ideology. I am a person with facets and interests and am not defined but merely influenced by the feminist ideology.
Millicent. I am in awe of your courage, strength, openness and honesty.0 -
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The King of Moo wrote: »hatrickpatrick wrote: »Really?
Take a look at this article.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/875448-topman-pulls-t-shirts-with-sexist-and-offensive-slogans-from-uk-stores
Now take a look at these, which are openly sold in tons of girls' clothes shops.
http://www.crazydogtshirts.com/catalog/boysarestupid.bmp
Once again, double standards.
Why should men tolerate being told to watch what they say, if vice versa is not also applied?
I agree it's a double standard, and I think both the male and female t-shirts should have been withdrawn simply because they're really stupid and childish and people shouldn't be encouraged to be stupid and childish.
But I think the reason there was more backlash against the men's t-shirts was because the slogans are coming from the mouths of men, who are still slightly more privileged than women in our society, and often physically stronger, so the slogans could be seen as intimidating and as discrimination by those with more power against those with less.
I personally agree with you to an extent and think that because the gender divide has lessened somewhat, those arguments against the male slogans are less valid than before, and both types of t-shirts are sexist.
If I saw someone of either gender wearing them I'd think them silly and question why they'd want something so stupid emblazoned across their chest.
I will say though, that this is not really a big deal overall, and there are bigger examples of sexism to be tackled. Though I guess casual sexism could be a gateway to greater sexism.hardbackwriter wrote: »Marge is an angel , delightful , she's certainly not shrill and I think most feminists would agree , definatley not a feminist, Lisa is the liberal and feminist character and is quite overbearing and shrill
I wish youtube had a clip of the montage of annoyed harrumphs played when Marge denies nagging Homer in the Brad Goodman episode.
She's inconsistently characterised to be honest: sometimes she is the voice of reason, but sometimes she's a boring nagger.
One thing that really worries me about all this obsessing over every single equality issue is that it makes life terribly sober and serious , if you can't laugh at peculiar female or male traits, comedy as we know it is dead0 -
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Feisar, as promised, I'll give you that reply now. I am going to appeal to anyone reading this to be gentle with their responses. Much of this is extremely personal and still painful, so I would appreciate if people would treat it kindly. Thank you in advance.
So *deep breath* on to mega post!
I'm not exactly sure where to begin with it all so I guess I'll start from the beginning. I was a smart child. Inquisitive, curious and always reading. From the start of my life, I can remember getting hassle for it from family members, based solely on the fact that I was a girl. I lost count of the number of times I was told, "It's possible to be too smart", by both aunts and uncles. The same assertion was never levelled at my male cousins or siblings.
It was made apparent to all the girls in our family that they would have to pull their weight. The girls ironed, cleaned, cooked, washed dishes from a very young age (maybe 7 or 8) while the boys were off playing. Cries of "Why isn't he helping?" were roundly ignored or sometimes shouted at. The girls were taught to shut up and get on with it or face anger or disdain.
This translated into a brother who demanded that his sisters cook for him or clean up: the gender roles were set.
As I grew, I was labelled a tomboy. I used to be quite proud of the term until I realised that this was just because I liked to play in the dirt or climb trees or playing with pets. I hadn't much interest in dolls and looking at the skinny, big-chested Barbies or over-sexualised Bratz dolls, I'm kind of glad of that now.
I was very creative and liked to work with my hands. I even had this crappy little woodworking kit that wouldn't cut a thick slice of paper but I loved it. When I was deciding on a secondary school, I asked to go to the only mixed secondary school, which offered woodworking, metalwork and the most amazing science lab that I had ever seen. The boy's school also offered all these subjects. Pig foetuses in jars, big vials and bottles of chemicals and people performing simple experiments were shown to us on the open day. I was in nerd heaven. I begged to go, so excited to get my hands dirty and was told, no. I would only be chasing boys. It seemed exceptionally cruel that my parents would allow me on the open day only to say no for a reason that made no sense to me. I had no interest in boys at the time. (In fact, I didn't have my first boyfriend till I was 17 -- makes sense in light of the next part of my post.) Anyway, off I was sent to the girl's school to do "female" subjects like home economics and languages. That was less than 15 years ago.
The biggest motivation for my feminism is what came at a young age.
When I was about 7 or 8 was when the sexual abuse started. An older male figure saw me as property because of my gender and abused me for two, maybe three years. It shattered my innocence and sent me into a depression that took me 20 years to get over. It also set up another understanding very early on that my rights over my own sexuality were not my own decision and the pattern of a (much) older male taking advantage of my vulnerability and gender, which would repeat twice more before I was a teenager.
One man was a family member; two, who sexually assaulted me when I was 14 and 15 (one of those after plying me with drink), were not related to me or each other in any way. As I entered late teens/early twenties, I had blossomed into a body that I had no idea what to do with and feared my own sexuality as it had never brought good things before. It again made me vulnerable for predatory men, who took any excuse to grope me, make lewd comments or treat me like an object. I began to drink to cope and self harm. As a result of being very drunk one night, I have a vague recollection of a close "friend" walking me home. On the steps on a hill in public, he proceeded to have sex with me while I fell asleep. I was so drunk I could barely speak, but that didn't seem to bother him. I don't know if he wore a condom. I no longer drink.
I am very aware that men and boys are abused and am just as horrified by that as by assault and abuse of girls, but there is no denying that sexually motivated violence is a gendered crime. Far, far more women are abused or raped than men and I wish I could say I had it worse than other girls I knew, but the fact of the matter is, I could reel off a very long list of women I know who have suffered sexual abuse and violence.
When my parents separated, despite saying I wished to stay with my dad who was the better caregiver at the time, custody was given to my mother as the court system assumed that because of her predefined gender role, she was the better custodian. I am aware that is also sexist against my dad, but shows how deeply engrained the "woman as nurturer" stereotype goes.
Thus began my interest in feminism and the realisation that I had some power over my life. My role was not defined by what I had been taught a girl should be like, nor should I ignore the disturbing fact that I was not the only girl, not by a long shot, who had faced sexual violence or been taken advantage of.
There are many other reasons -- the fact that the legislation of the X Case has still not been enacted and I could still have to travel to England if carrying a child would kill me; the increasing questioning of when I will be getting married and having kids and the horror when I say I want neither (incidentally, my brother is six years older, single and childless, and fields far, far less of these questions than I do); the fact that boyfriends and male friends have frequently tried to tell me that they are smarter than me, apropos of nothing; the fact that my heavy metal/alt/grunge tastes were treated with derision and suspicion by male fans and friends, who did their best to trip me up with the third degree on my tastes; the fact that it was assumed I was lesbian because I didn't dress a certain way or have too much interest in men (understandably, IMO, given my history); the list goes on.
My interest in feminism does not negate my interest in the rights or issues of other groups--races, ethnic groups, fathers, people with disabilities or anyone else discriminated against. It simply forms the basis of my understanding of my own gender and the issues facing it.
TLDR; I am not a single ideology. I am a person with facets and interests and am not defined but merely influenced by the feminist ideology.
You would have to have a heart of stone to read that and not feel your pain.
Now I see you as vulnerable and I'm sure that's not what you want at all.
I understand why you are so passionate about your beliefs, I might not agree with them all but life experience is what makes us what we are.:)0 -
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You would have to have a heart of stone to read that and not feel your pain.
Now I see you as vulnerable and I'm sure that's not what you want at all.
I understand why you are so passionate about your beliefs, I might not agree with them all but life experience is what makes us what we are.:)
Thank you very much. That's a truly lovely post.
I'm not vulnerable these days at all though, and I credit taking gender studies classes and learning more about feminism for much of that. It's a tool, same as any ideology -- liberalism, conservatism, egalitarianism -- with which to make sense of the world. It's only destructive if used in a negative way, but a few bad apples shouldn't rot the barrel. There are many moderate, empassioned but ultimately compassionate and reasonable people, just like me, who use feminist theory and studies to help them interact better with the world.0 -
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Thank you very much. That's a truly lovely post.
I'm not vulnerable these days at all though, and I credit taking gender studies classes and learning more about feminism for much of that. It's a tool, same as any ideology -- liberalism, conservatism, egalitarianism -- with which to make sense of the world. It's only destructive if used in a negative way, but a few bad apples shouldn't rot the barrel. There are many moderate, empassioned but ultimately compassionate and reasonable people, just like me, who use feminist theory and studies to help them interact better with the world.
thanks for your post and yes very brave of you and i applaud you for it bravo sad to say though that their are very few woman who could not relate to most of what you posted0 -
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Eric Cartman wrote: »millicent - very brave for posting that , cheers , Im going to leave this thread now before i get banned. beliefs reinforced...
Because of my post or others'?
And thank you. I think! :pac:
ETA: Well definitely not thank you! 0 -
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