Why is sexism such a difficult topic?

Dudess

hondasam wrote: »

Millicent wrote: »

It can be, especially when people are trying to paint me as some sort of man hater, because it's simply not true. Because for all those horrible assholes I have encountered who made me feel like nothing, there are wonderful amazing men like my boyfriend, my brothers, my dad, my friends, who enrich my life on a daily basis. I don't hate all men, or even the ones who treated me horribly. I want to foster better communication with them so they can understand the issues facing my gender as I try to do with theirs.

This is not meant to offend you but you do come across as always defending the woman. It is understandable after reading your post why it seems that way.
Can you see why it would come across as you are a man hater? I know I have changed my opinion after reading your post and I'm sure others will also.

Defending women when provoked looks like man-hating? Lol. And from a woman too... :rolleyes:

Eric Cartman

Millicent wrote: »

Because of my post or others'?

And thank you. I think! :pac:

I have certain beliefs about the past of people who become feminists that encourages them to do so and your post revealed that you tick most of the boxes, I dont want to get banned so i wont go into further detail as you have been fair enough to answer most questions and Id rather not upset you or others by derailing this thread in a way , if a mod whos on wants to let me know who to PM just to make sure I get a green light before I post ill explain all but until then im not taking the risk

Seomra Mushie

Eric Cartman wrote: »

millicent - very brave for posting that , cheers , Im going to leave this thread now before i get banned. beliefs reinforced...

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have certain beliefs about the past of people who become feminists that encourages them to do so and your post revealed that you tick most of the boxes, I dont want to get banned so i wont go into further detail as you have been fair enough to answer most questions and Id rather not upset you or others by derailing this thread in a way , if a mod whos on wants to let me know who to PM just to make sure I get a green light before I post ill explain all but until then im not taking the risk

ffs :mad:

Millicent

hondasam wrote: »

This is not meant to offend you but you do come across as always defending the woman. It is understandable after reading your post why it seems that way.
Can you see why it would come across as you are a man hater? I know I have changed my opinion after reading your post and I'm sure others will also.

Genuinely, I don't think I come across as a man hater or I should hope I don't. That is never my intention. Sometimes I think the fact that I say I am a feminist colours people's perspective of me. Not because of the content of my posts but because of what people perceive feminism to mean.

I may be prolific in threads with a feminist bent to them, but I have also posted on Boards about issues relating to men, including fathers' rights, male suicide rates, the ludicrous Romeo and Juliet law, which annoys me both as someone who has some lovely men in her life and as a feminist who thinks it ridiculous that the law thinks that girls need to be protected from boys and are not complicit in sexual activity with boys their own age.

I may be a little more sensitive to female issues because I have been fighting all my life for them, but that doesn't mean that that's all there is to my posts. I am active on many, many more topics than feminism or women's issues.

stupidusername

Dudess wrote: »

Defending women when provoked looks like man-hating? Lol. And from a woman too... :rolleyes:

This attitude annoys me. what difference does it make that she's a woman? :mad:

Dudess

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Millicent wrote: »

Because of my post or others'?

And thank you. I think! :pac:

I have certain beliefs about the past of people who become feminists that encourages them to do so and your post revealed that you tick most of the boxes, I dont want to get banned so i wont go into further detail as you have been fair enough to answer most questions and Id rather not upset you or others by derailing this thread in a way , if a mod whos on wants to let me know who to PM just to make sure I get a green light before I post ill explain all but until then im not taking the risk

Using your logic it appears your anger towards women would indicate you had a bad experience with women in your post.
But as has been said repeatedly, feminism doesn't always mean anger towards men, so why think it?

Micky Dolenz

You really should have stopped there

Eric Cartman wrote: »

millicent - very brave for posting that , cheers , Im going to leave this thread now before i get banned. beliefs reinforced...

You really should have known better to post in here in the first place.

As per opening post, do not post in this thread again please.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have certain beliefs about the past of people who become feminists that encourages them to do so and your post revealed that you tick most of the boxes, I dont want to get banned so i wont go into further detail as you have been fair enough to answer most questions and Id rather not upset you or others by derailing this thread in a way , if a mod whos on wants to let me know who to PM just to make sure I get a green light before I post ill explain all but until then im not taking the risk

Dudess

stupidusername wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Defending women when provoked looks like man-hating? Lol. And from a woman too... :rolleyes:

This attitude annoys me. what difference does it make that she's a woman? :mad:

Being a member of a group yet distancing yourself from them is illogical.

Millicent

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have certain beliefs about the past of people who become feminists that encourages them to do so and your post revealed that you tick most of the boxes, I dont want to get banned so i wont go into further detail as you have been fair enough to answer most questions and Id rather not upset you or others by derailing this thread in a way , if a mod whos on wants to let me know who to PM just to make sure I get a green light before I post ill explain all but until then im not taking the risk

But what's the difference what encouraged me to do so? The fact is that feminism played a useful role in my life when gender-specific issues affected me. Even if I tick those boxes, it doesn't mean that my feminist viewpoint is incorrect but rather impacted by my experience, does it not? I'm not sure what is wrong with that.

Maybe PM that mod, or you can post it if you like. I have no problem in answering it.

Dudess

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Eric Cartman wrote: »

millicent - very brave for posting that , cheers , Im going to leave this thread now before i get banned. beliefs reinforced...

Said in a passive-aggressive style so people would wonder what he meant - under the guise of pretending he doesn't want to offend anyone. The usual.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

terms like "man hater" creeping in. no more please.

i'm just waiting for "women are only lesbians because they had a bad exp with and now hate men"
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


edit: ehm didnt see mod warning

hondasam

Dudess wrote: »

Defending women when provoked looks like man-hating? Lol. And from a woman too... :rolleyes:

Really Dudess there is no need for that. I'm a woman, does that mean I have to always agree with all women?

Millicent

stupidusername wrote: »

This attitude annoys me. what difference does it make that she's a woman? :mad:

Apparently, if I defend women's issues as a woman, I'm a man hater. If I were a man, I might be a white knight. To be honest, I'm not sure how all this works exactly. :pac:

Micky Dolenz

bluewolf wrote: »

i'm just waiting for "women are only lesbians because they had a bad exp with and now hate men"
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


edit: ehm didnt see mod warning

How does this move the discussion forward?

Dudess

bluewolf wrote: »

i'm just waiting for "women are only lesbians because they had a bad exp with and now hate men"
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


edit: ehm didnt see mod warning

Shur one "genius" once said Beth Ditto is a lesbian because no man would go near her - better comedy than Saturday Night Live in its hey day.

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

How does this move the discussion forward?

that was meant to be an apology in my edit

stupidusername

Millicent wrote: »

Apparently, if I defend women's issues as a woman, I'm a man hater. If I were a man, I might be a white knight. To be honest, I'm not sure how all this works exactly. :pac:

btw I wasn't agreeing with the post, I just hate this attitude that if you're a woman you must be all for feminism etc, and you're a traitor if you're not.

also, you know I like you milli, I never viewed you as a man-hater at all.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

See this is part of the problem, off the cuff smart remarks and ill placed smiley faces. It's called flaming, it sets a tone. It does not invite open discussion and causes people to go on the defensive.

Report posts.

Dravokivich

Millicent wrote: »

Apparently, if I defend women's issues as a woman, I'm a man hater. If I were a man, I might be a white knight. To be honest, I'm not sure how all this works exactly. :pac:

I think Hondasam's response to Dudess covers what SUN was saying.

Millicent

stupidusername wrote: »

btw I wasn't agreeing with the post, I just hate this attitude that if you're a woman you must be all for feminism etc, and you're a traitor if you're not.

also, you know I like you milli, I never viewed you as a man-hater at all.

I got that. I don't think anyone is a traitor if they don't subscribe to the feminist ideology. It just happens to be the one for me.

And aw! Thank you kindly. I like you too! Glad you didn't perceive me as a man hater either.

Millicent

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Mod

See this is part of the problem, off the cuff smart remarks and ill placed smiley faces. It's called flaming, it sets a tone. It does not invite open discussion and causes people to go on the defensive.

Report posts.

Was that me? Sorry if so. Wasn't intended.

hondasam

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Mod

See this is part of the problem, off the cuff smart remarks and ill placed smiley faces. It's called flaming, it sets a tone. It does not invite open discussion and causes people to go on the defensive.

Report posts.

sorry I know I mentioned the man hater word.

Dudess

hondasam wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Defending women when provoked looks like man-hating? Lol. And from a woman too... :rolleyes:

Really Dudess there is no need for that. I'm a woman, does that mean I have to always agree with all women?

No? I didn't say anything remotely like that.

If a woman defends women when provoked, how the fuk does that look like man-hating?
It surely just looks like defending women when provoked. Millicent defends anyone if she finds what's being said about them really uncalled-for, including men. Pity there aren't more like her. Yet you see man-hating... :rolleyes:
What, remotely, in her manner is aggressive enough to warrant such a vile slur? She's really calm and level-headed and reasonable and fair and balanced from what I see.

And yeah, I do object to women objecting to women defending women, seeing as they're actually also being defended - and would be grateful for it if they needed it.

stupidusername

Dudess wrote: »

And yeah, I do object to women objecting to women defending women, seeing as they're actually also being defended - and would be grateful for it if they needed it.

Nope, I can stand up for myself thanks.

Dudess

stupidusername wrote: »

Millicent wrote: »

Apparently, if I defend women's issues as a woman, I'm a man hater. If I were a man, I might be a white knight. To be honest, I'm not sure how all this works exactly. :pac:

btw I wasn't agreeing with the post, I just hate this attitude that if you're a woman you must be all for feminism etc, and you're a traitor if you're not.

Care to point out where I said women should be all for feminism? Oh yeah, I didn't.
Definitely don't see anything wrong with women not being interested or always in agreement with feminism - I'm actually not that interested in it myself, I just hate the abuse of those who are.

Millicent

Dudess wrote: »

No? I didn't say anything remotely like that.

If a woman defends women when provoked, how the fuk does that look like man-hating?
It surely just looks like defending women when provoked. Millicent defends anyone if she finds what's being said about them really uncalled-for, including men. Pity there aren't more like her. Yet you see man-hating... :rolleyes:
What, remotely, in her manner is aggressive enough to warrant such a vile slur? She's really calm and level-headed and reasonable and fair and balanced from what I see.

And yeah, I do object to women objecting to women defending women, seeing as they're actually also being defended - and would be grateful for it if they needed it.

stupidusername wrote: »

Nope, I can stand up for myself thanks.

Stupi, I know you can, and very well too. I'd still defend you or any group you might happen to belong to, same as I would anyone I perceived as being treated unreasonably or aggressively. I can't help myself.

benway

Not gonna trawl through the rest of this thread right at the moment - hope no-one's offended. But I'm glad the topic has been re-opened, the tail end of the last thread made me sad. I still have a few genuine questions I'd like answered, if anyone's got a moment.

First up, there are three concepts that a couple of (ex UCD Womens' Studies) friends have brought up:

"The global sisterhood" - the idea that there's a more profound connection between women all over the world that men can never understand or be part of. That a western middle class woman has more in common with another woman living in an African village than with a man from her own class and cultural background.

"Human history has primarily been defined by gender based oppression". We're gender roles not as much a function of the division of labour as of willful oppression? And isn't a male serf at least equally oppressed to a lady of the manor?

"There would be no war in a world ruled by women", I give you Margaret Thatcher, Elizabeth I, etc.

Are these mainstream feminist opinions? Like, do people really believe this stuff? Not being hostile in any way, just want to get other perspectives.

Also, why do we need to cling on to feminism, when a broader more inclusive approach could be more effective? As you have seen, lots of men won't support feminism, not through misogyny or anything like it, but because of feminism's adversarial approach, but would broadly support many "feminist" aims. Why not inclusive egalitarianism? Or is identity politics rather than equality the main thing?

Replies would be appreciated, thankee.

hondasam

Dudess wrote: »

No? I didn't say anything remotely like that.

If a woman defends women when provoked, how the fuk does that look like man-hating?
It surely just looks like defending women when provoked. Millicent defends anyone if she finds what's being said about them really uncalled-for, including men. Pity there aren't more like her. Yet you see man-hating... :rolleyes:
What, remotely, in her manner is aggressive enough to warrant such a vile slur? She's really calm and level-headed and reasonable and fair and balanced from what I see.

And yeah, I do object to women objecting to women defending women, seeing as they're actually also being defended - and would be grateful for it if they needed it.

It was not a vile slur, I used the word because millicent used it, I was just saying why people might think it.
There is no need for you to defend her, as you said she can defend herself.
I'm not getting into a debate over it. I can defend myself and don't expect anyone else to do it for me.
I don't think millicent took offence to my post, I hope she did not anyway.