Why is sexism such a difficult topic?

Bigtoe107

catthinkin wrote: »

pay woman in the same jobs are generally paid less than their male counterparts

glass ceiling less than 3% of all major coperations have a woman at the helm

Which ways are men specfically discrimnated against ?

I think most people who want to see that sexism exists will those who dont wont simple

I will encourage you to read this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055849345

also what most people don't realise is that per minute worked women are on average paid more than men, the gender pay gap only occurs due to males doing longer hours.

foxyboxer

what is that phrase that get's bandied about by advertising and marketing type people?


Hmmm


Oh yeah................SEX SELLS!!!!!


The cynic in me believes that the ryanair ad was deliberately that way.
They probably knew that it would cause concern and if it was banned then quids in! More publicity! Which is how I saw the ad in the first place, by following a headline stating "Ryanair sexist ad banned"

smash

stovelid wrote: »

Sexism and the objectification of women is disgusting.

I change nappies. I cook. I'm in tune with my feelings. I wish that women made the same salary as I do. I'm a sensitive yet forceful lover. I've worn pink shirts on occasion, despite the boorish laughter of other "men". I take pleasure in asking (female) shop assistants where the tampons are in a loud and unabashed voice. I love The Ladies Longue even more than Soccer and Motors.

Sisters please, please PM me (with pics) to discuss how we can march respectfully forward together to a new dawn of gender harmony.

Tell me how that works out for you!

Bannasidhe

hondasam wrote: »

This story works the other way round as well, plenty of women marry men who are financially better of than them.
From your description it would seem your cousin bought a husband.

Nope - and that is an insulting assertion to make about a complete stranger. He had a sales job when they married, she was a secretary. She gained university qualifications while working full-time and raising the kids. He lost his job due to being drunk. She started a very successful business as a result of which was head hunted. She kept her business going while working full-time.


Where the roles are reversed - do those men buy their wives?

My point was - women can and do pay alimony in Ireland. So to claim they do not is simply not true.

Feeona

stovelid wrote: »

Sexism and the objectification of women is disgusting.

I change nappies. I cook. I'm in tune with my feelings. I wish that women made the same salary as I do. I'm a sensitive yet forceful lover. I've worn pink shirts on occasion, despite the boorish laughter of other "men". I take pleasure in asking (female) shop assistants where the tampons are in a loud and unabashed voice. I love The Ladies Longue even more than Soccer and Motors.

Sisters please, please PM me (with pics) to discuss how we can march respectfully forward together to a new dawn of gender harmony.

It's interesting that you saw the word sexism in a thread (started by a man by the way) and you've taken the stance that the thread is about sexism against women.

Why aren't you having a dig at all the male posters here who have spoken about what men have to put up with re sexism?

Bannasidhe

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

i have to laugh when women complain that there isnt enough women in government, well of the few that are there or were there many of them had very high positions within government, Mary Robinson, Mary McAlese, Mary Harney, Mary White, Mary Hanafin, Mary Coughlin (whats with all the Marys :???:, Joan Burton, to name a few.

if ye want more women in government either get into politics and run for office or vote them in.

the fact that men still massively outnumber women in government is because not enough women run for office and of the few that do not all women vote for them.

I posted this in the 'other' thread but it is worth repeating here:

Women over the age of 30 and men aged over 21 were granted the vote in 1918 by Westminster. The Irish Parliamentary party led by John Redmond had tried to prevent women in Ireland being granted. By 1918 Sinn Fein has eclipsed the IPP and campaigned on an equality platform - directly appealing to women voters.

1918: First woman elected to Westminister : Constance Markievicz returned for Dublin St. Patricks.

1919-1922: 1st Irish woman to be given a portfolio -Constance Markievicz Minister for Labour in Dáil Eireann. (2nd woman in the world 1st was Alexandra Kollontai: People's Commissar (Minister) for Social Welfare of Soviet Russia from 1917 to 1918.)

1921: 6 women elected to Dail Eireann - all opposed the Treaty.

1922 Constitution granted voting rights to all men and women aged over 21.

1973: Voted extended to all men and women over the age of 18.

1979 : 2nd Irish woman to be given a portfolio:Máire Geoghegan-Quinn Minister for the Gaeltacht. (To put that into context, the same year Ireland got its second ever female cabinet minister Margaret Thatcher was elected Prime Minister in the UK.)

1981: 3rd Irish woman to be given a portfolio: Eileen Desmond Minister for Health and Social Welfare.

1990: Mary Robinson elected President.

2011: A record 23 TDs elected to a Dail Éireann - total number of TDs 166.

At this rate my granddaughter might live to see a female Taoiseach...

smash

Would you it rather they (both sexes) gain independence and stop living off someone else's fortune?

I'd hazard a guess that most people who marry for money are women. Hell there's even been threads here where women have stated financial security as a reason for going out with someone.

catthinkin

token101 wrote: »

If that's true, and I'd doubt it, maybe there just aren't enough capable women in the other 97%? Maybe the guy was just better? It shouldn't be about quotas, it should be about who's best in every walk of life.


http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2009/12/women_ceo_why_so_few.html

taking the words of another poster as i wouldnt be so patrionising myself i would encourage you to read this

--Kaiser--

Bannasidhe wrote: »

At this rate my granddaughter might live to see a female Taoiseach...

Since this is a a) democratic government b) women have the right to vote and c) women have the right to run for election

...to whom are you ascribing the blame for the lack of female TDs?

Ickle Magoo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

1973: Voted extended to all men and women over the age of 18.

:eek: 1973? Just...wow....explains a lot...

foxyboxer

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I posted this in the 'other' thread but it is worth repeating here:

Women over the age of 30 and men aged over 21 were granted the vote in 1918 by Westminster. The Irish Parliamentary party led by John Redmond had tried to prevent women in Ireland being granted. By 1918 Sinn Fein has eclipsed the IPP and campaigned on an equality platform - directly appealing to women voters.

1918: First woman elected to Westminister : Constance Markievicz returned for Dublin St. Patricks.

1919-1922: 1st Irish woman to be given a portfolio -Constance Markievicz Minister for Labour in Dáil Eireann. (2nd woman in the world 1st was Alexandra Kollontai: People's Commissar (Minister) for Social Welfare of Soviet Russia from 1917 to 1918.)

1921: 6 women elected to Dail Eireann - all opposed the Treaty.

1922 Constitution granted voting rights to all men and women aged over 21.

1973: Voted extended to all men and women over the age of 18.

1979 : 2nd Irish woman to be given a portfolio:Máire Geoghegan-Quinn Minister for the Gaeltacht. (To put that into context, the same year Ireland got its second ever female cabinet minister Margaret Thatcher was elected Prime Minister in the UK.)

1981: 3rd Irish woman to be given a portfolio: Eileen Desmond Minister for Health and Social Welfare.

1990: Mary Robinson elected President.

2011: A record 23 TDs elected to a Dail Éireann - total number of TDs 166.

At this rate my granddaughter might live to see a female Taoiseach...

Fair points all but don't forget you're talking about a country that banned Curly Wurleys

Corruptable

Keywords from my earlier post: "discuss such issues sensibly"

Dravokivich

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Since this is a a) democratic government b) women have the right to vote and c) women have the right to run for election

...to whom are you ascribing the blame for the lack of female TDs?

The voters surely.

But then again, I don't vote based on Skirts / Pants. If I'm assured someone is going to do what I feel like is the right thing to to, I'll vote for them regardless of gender.

I'd also expect them to represent me and everyone else regardless of our genders too...

hondasam

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nope - and that is an insulting assertion to make about a complete stranger. He had a sales job when they married, she was a secretary. She gained university qualifications while working full-time and raising the kids. He lost his job due to being drunk. She started a very successful business as a result of which was head hunted. She kept her business going while working full-time.


Where the roles are reversed - do those men buy their wives?

My point was - women can and do pay alimony in Ireland. So to claim they do not is simply not true.

You said SHE had the money, SHE had to buy him a house. It's all about Her in your post, it's obvious he is wrong in your eyes. I can only read what you typed.
If the roles were reversed and the man owned the house before the marriage then she should not be entitled to it if they separated imo.

catthinkin

Bigtoe107 wrote: »

I will encourage you to read this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055849345

also what most people don't realise is that per minute worked women are on average paid more than men, the gender pay gap only occurs due to males doing longer hours.

I would encourage to read this then i prefer to deal with the facts or maybe they are making it all up ?;)

smash

catthinkin wrote: »

http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2009/12/women_ceo_why_so_few.html

taking the words of another poster as i wouldnt be so patrionising myself i would encourage you to read this

That's really an article about fashion. It has nothing to do with someone capabilities. If a woman doesn't get a job as a CEO it's not because of what she's wearing. It's because the person who will make the company the most profit will get the job!

That article is rubbish to be honest.

pickarooney

Do you not normally become CEO by starting a company?

Bigtoe107

catthinkin wrote: »

token101 wrote: »

If that's true, and I'd doubt it, maybe there just aren't enough capable women in the other 97%? Maybe the guy was just better? It shouldn't be about quotas, it should be about who's best in every walk of life.


http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2009/12/women_ceo_why_so_few.html

taking the words of another poster as i wouldnt be so patrionising myself i would encourage you to read this

I wasn't being patronising I genuinely wanted people to read what is in my opinion one of the best and most informative threads on boards.

The problem with this kind of debate is everybody whether they like it or not has a vested interest in their own gender. I personally feel men are disadvantaged in both societal terms and legislative terms in Ireland today, but I try not to let this cloud my own judgement and can appreciate that there are some areas where men hold the upper hand.

The challenge is in a sense to disregard your own gender bias and work toward an egalitarian future, a task which in my opinion feminism in all it's form's baulks at; and instead clings on to the "we are oppressed, we want women's rights" position.

token101

catthinkin wrote: »

token101 wrote: »

If that's true, and I'd doubt it, maybe there just aren't enough capable women in the other 97%? Maybe the guy was just better? It shouldn't be about quotas, it should be about who's best in every walk of life.


http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2009/12/women_ceo_why_so_few.html

taking the words of another poster as i wouldnt be so patrionising myself i would encourage you to read this

Says 7.4% overall here

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2009-01-01-women-ceos-increase_N.htm

The King of Moo

Basically, it's because a lot of people are still incredibly immature about gender. I don't know if it's a particularly Irish separate-schools-and-separate-sides-of-the-dancefloor thing or if it's more widespread.

It's also probably widespread across both genders, but I've more knowledge of the male mindset.
I know so many apparently intelligent, rational adults who have a very immature, combative attitude towards the opposite sex.
I know some women who treat their boyfriends like crap and feel they should be entitled to be treated like a princess.
I know more men who see women as scary, mysterious objects to be feared and conquered. Some of them just really seem to hate women and have a very angry attitude towards them.

I know people of both genders who buy into the tired old gender stereotypes.
Some men laugh at me for the very reason I cook, let alone that I actually enjoy it, and would cook for my girlfriend.
I know some women who automatically assume that they have to get married and have kids, even if they're not experiencing any direct outside pressure to do so.

By the way, I'm not saying that there are more sexist men than women in Ireland as I can't know that for certain. I can only say that I've observed more sexist men, but I know that's because I would generally spend more time around men, having more male friends.

I think the main problem is that too many people retain the immature "us against them" attitude towards the opposite sex from school, and reinforce their belief by surrounding themselves with like-minded individuals.

I don't believe, however, that sexism is naturally wired into us. That just sounds like an excuse to be sexist.

I also have stopped bothering getting into discussions about gender here as there's simply too much bollocks being bandied about (mostly from men) and the predictable accusations of "white knight" or "pussy-whipped wimp" would come up any time a man said that perhaps women ought to be allowed more of a role in life than designated sammich-maker.
I did enjoy the time someone told me I think like a girl though. I'm still not sure exactly what they meant .

smash

pickarooney wrote: »

Do you not normally become CEO by starting a company?

Not always.

Bigtoe107

catthinkin wrote: »

I would encourage to read this then i prefer to deal with the facts or maybe they are making it all up ?;)

What?

Bipolar Joe

In response to the original question, you have your answer!

Party time!!!!

Feeona

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

In response to the original question, you have your answer!

Party time!!!!

Where did all the liquor come from? And who's playing that music?

token101

pickarooney wrote: »

Do you not normally become CEO by starting a company?

Not always, but usually. If you look at all the top companies in the world; their founders are almost always men. Facebook, Microsoft, Nike, Adidas, Apple, etc,etc. All white males. So it would make sense to have a majority of white male CEOs in the Fortune 500s and the likes. But let's not let sense get in the way.

smash

token101 wrote: »

Not always, but usually. If you look at all the top companies in the world; their founders are almost always men. Facebook, Microsoft, Nike, Adidas, Apple, etc,etc. All white males. So it would make sense to have a majority of white male CEOs in the Fortune 500s and the likes. But let's not let sense get in the way.

You're right... half of them should resign and give women their positions!

Bannasidhe

hondasam wrote: »

You said SHE had the money, SHE had to buy him a house. It's all about Her in your post, it's obvious he is wrong in your eyes. I can only read what you typed.
If the roles were reversed and the man owned the house before the marriage then she should not be entitled to it if they separated imo.

I see no reason why an adult should be financially supported by another adult simply because they had been married. Gender doesn't come into it.

I do think if one partner removed themselves from the job market to raise the children - and I know both men and women who have done this - thereby negatively impacting on their career/income prospects then that should be factored in to any final settlement.

Where both partners worked - any joint property should be split 50/50 - as should custody of children. If they wish to come to a different, private arrangement that is a matter for individuals.

However - may I say this one last time - my point is women can and do pay alimony in Ireland.

token101

smash wrote: »

You're right... half of them should resign and give women their positions!

Yeah that'll solve it alright :rolleyes:

hondasam

pickarooney wrote: »

Do you not normally become CEO by starting a company?

token101 wrote: »

Not always, but usually. If you look at all the top companies in the world; their founders are almost always men. Facebook, Microsoft, Nike, Adidas, Apple, etc,etc. All white males. So it would make sense to have a majority of white male CEOs in the Fortune 500s and the likes. But let's not let sense get in the way.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=women%20ceo&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catalyst.org%2Fpublication%2F322%2Fwomen-ceos-of-the-fortune-1000&ei=5uA7T7OoOISAhQfBqPTpCQ&usg=AFQjCNHiLlz-fn2LJOAhXDe3unIDmSRUtA

There are some women in this position in large companies.

Chuck Stone

The King of Moo wrote: »

Some men laugh at me for the very reason I cook, let alone that I actually enjoy it, and would cook for my girlfriend.

QFT.

I think most men cook these days though. I have three brothers and we all can do a bit of cooking.

I'd be embarrassed if I wasn't able to cook personally.