RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

We don't know when they say Ireland if they mean the Country or the Island.
We don't know what saorsat will be like in Ballycastle. On the first published "spots" the North East Scotland was different, now the same. I don't know exactly where the point of interference is reached. Absolute signal level isn't an Issue in Ballycastle, only relative level of Irish and NE Scotland spot.

Well, some people expect the Irish Gov to get all of it eventually, but let us keep that for Politics sites.

You could argue why are there ANY RTE /TG4 terrestrial transmitters in N.I. and not something for Carlingford?

Major trade supplier (the one based in Magherafelt) is now stocking these inverto, KA band LNB , don't like revealing trade prices but coming in cheaper than onwave.

Dish up:


Inverted spectrum:


On the basis of the above, 80cm seems to be plenty and more than likely 60cm will be sufficient, unless there is a futher drop in power or they fiddle with the FEC.

Both ports of the LNBF are independent outputs designed for connection to 2 tuners.


Switching from 13 Volts to 18 Volts changes the polarity:


22KHz tone makes no difference.

Without changing the LO on the receiver, TP scan parameters are 10765MHz, SR 25000, Vertical, FEC 1/2, DVB-S2 QPSK:

darth_maul wrote: »

Major trade supplier (the one based in Magherafelt) is now stocking these inverto, KA band LNB , don't like revealing trade prices but coming in cheaper than onwave.

http://www.vanjak.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=33187 £19.59 according to the site. Is VAT and delivery extra?

Onwave price €35 (€25+VAT+courier delivery)

@The Cush

Isn't that the same price with currency exchange?

Apogee wrote: »

On the basis of the above, 80cm seems to be plenty and more than likely 60cm will be sufficient, unless there is a futher drop in power or they fiddle with the FEC.

You KNOW how much margin you need for Rain?

That's a very very brave statement when RTE say 80cm is minimum, Ka-Band has HUGE increase in attenuation as water in air increases. It's very dry air right now.

But we don't know how heavy, from what altitude or how widespread to SSE of you. Nor do we know where you are on the Footprint.

I'd originally estimated 44cm was Ok, which is technically possible. But when RTE claim you need 80cm for a single feed it's a bit unreasonable, especially when there is no official service to claim "65cm will do". I know you are expert, but RTE/RTENL have to be the ones setting the standards.

Almost all reports here are anecdotal, and many from people that are only hobbyists. RTENL have a contract with Eutelsat and real Communications Engineers.

Where do you draw the line? Will we ignore Saorview Certification?


That is a spectrum. It's only a partial story about signal quality. (Moving marker just to side of peak and then calculating simple analogue SNR in dB would be a start. The peak level on screen on it's own is no use)

What BER have you?
What is the recommended BER limit?

How do you know what carrier Power they are going to run in 2013?

Admit that 65cm is purely a guess. We can only go on what RTE or RTENL or Saorview publish. They have not published yet, but HAVE verbally confirmed that 80cm is minimum recommended for single feed.

I'll of course be delighted if they when they publish in print revert back to the claim of 65cm. There must be some good reason why they said 65cm before and now say 80cm.

tomslick,

Just wondering what type and size of dish you are using?

moro_original wrote: »

tomslick,

Just wondering what type and size of dish you are using?

It is a Triax 110 dish. The Ku LNB is an inverto ultra single. When the Ka was in prime position signal was up in the 90%

Signal is irrelevant!
Only quality (BER) counts. or at least Signal vs the background level not on the carrier.

Apogee wrote: »

I'll rely on what I see in front of me rather than hearsay.

What you see is irrelevant.
Spectrum Analysing is futile.
Loquitos has spoken.
You shall be assimilated.

channnels wrote: »

Some speculation follows. Maybe RTE have reduced the power of the Saorsat transmission for one or any number of the following reasons:

1: Saorsat power had to be reduced to cut down the leakage of highly valuable RTE material to Britain. Otherwise the all-powerful rights holders would ritually disembowel Conor Hayes and that, well that would be terrible.

2: Saorsat power is to be reduced because RTE is bust. They can't afford the cost of a higher power transmission so have cut a "St Vincent de Paul deal" with Eutelsat. Saorsat will be radiated on increasingly reduced power until RTE NL determine how big a dish people will tolerate. Expect an influx of 1.8m Channel Masters at your local Peats.

3: Demand for Ka-band LNBs has been worryingly strong in mainland Europe. Two Ka LNBs are rumoured to be sold to a couple of German Radio Hams. Watty and Saorview:Brian from RTE NL have been despatched to an unnamed village in the Rhine-Westphalia province to track them down and liquidate them in an effort to send a message to enthusiasts to back off attempting to pick up Irish TV abroad.

4: RTE NL have noticed that there is a worrying trend of insubordination by the enthusiast community and therefore have launched an attack - get Watty to enforce obedience by dismissing all Saorsat reception reports unless fully certified by Marconi himself. Since Marconi has been dead since 1937 it is regretted that no reception reports can be entertained.

Finally I can announce that I have a contact in RTE NL who tells me they are pleased to announce the Saorsat logo. It will consist of a satellite dish modelled on the Jodrell Bank earth station with a friendly white coloured elephant called Des Mac who will be Tommy and PJ's new friend in the upcoming TV ads for the service.

Hilarious!!! :D:D:D

There are too many narky smart alecks. I'm not trying to mess anyone's fun or stop anyone anywhere watching RTE.

I only want that people get more educated, and don't buy the wrong stuff. Apogee's claims are not backed up by anything EXPLICIT he posted. We don't know the scaling of the spectrogram (10dB, 6dB, 2dB or Linear) or what equipment it represents.

The absolute level is MEANINGLESS. It always has been and always will be on an LNB unless it's a very long cable run, faulty or feeding a splitter.

The Signal to (noise + Interference) Ratio is what counts (On digital systems BER isn't a true measure of digital SNR but similar).

spectrum_noise.jpg
Green bar is important part
Below Red line is mix of local thermal noise, Cosmic noise and Electronics noise.
Purple line is roughly level of interference. Only BER really tells you the effect of Interference and noise.

On the supplied photo we can roughly see the Analogue levels only. The "marker" on the Saorsat peak is 62.9dBuV. We have no idea how "good" that is without comparing with totally clear sky and worst rain attenuation the link designed for. We can roughly see the analogue SNR and S(N+I)R. We should have been told the dBuV at levels of red and purple lines by the marker moved to those two points. Impossible to estimate from screen shot.

Any Ka signal report needs

1. Dish model and size,
2. test equipment used (a domestic sat box isn't test gear)
3. www.met.ie Rain radar snap (available on their site, but may not be up to date)
4. Several readings over several hours
5. Time of day
6. rough location of reception
7. Type of LNBF or LNB and feed
8. Amount of any offset from Arm.

adaptive_fail.jpg
Screen capture needed from www.met.ie to show extent and density of rain

Apogee is pretty expert. He should know better than to put up that screen shot and assert "65cm" is fine. Perhaps if he explains the logic with worked figures?

RTE really did say my 44cm was wrong and 65cm was the size. They recently after Cairan99/Onwave posts confirmed that 80cm is size for a single feed. Not Dual feed.

Yes, we have not yet got the "official announcement". But at this stage anyone claiming 65cm is fine needs

• proper worked figures and test gear
• know exactly what carrier power will be used
• know exactly what FEC will be used
• Actual contours for spot over Ireland

To back up the claim.

I'm a qualified communications engineer and at this stage I'd not make any claim on dish size based on any observation I make or Apogee makes unless it's got a lot more information. If RTE /RTENL wanted this to be a mass market product I still think a 44cm dish is technically possible. Obviously they really only want those that can't get Saorview to install. Though no-one is going to care what a few hobbyists and PVR owners do.