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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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    #1982
    channnels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭channnels


    It makes more sense for Saorsat to be a low key FTA option for those who can't get Saorview. That an 80cm dish MAY be required will undoubtedly put a fair few people off putting up a dish when a small UHF aerial would work as well if not better is a factor too.

    I have no doubt TV3/3e will be on Saorsat and at RTEs expense.

    The real demand for RTE by satellite really would be for expats in GB and Europe. Wonder what they think.


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    #1983
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    channnels wrote: »
    I have no doubt TV3/3e will be on Saorsat and at RTEs expense.
    I'd agree with this, unless TV3 actually go out of their way to block it. If one of the proposed aims is backing up the transmitter network, and TV3 are paying from DTT (whether they are already, but surely by ASO), then couldn't they argue it should already be covered? If the costs are as low as we've heard, not having the full channel line up would appear to me to be cutting off their nose to spite their face...


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    #1984
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    RTENL will never give anyone a free ride. They can't. The people paying would sue. TV3 is / was content to break licence terms and be missing for 15% to 17% of Analogue viewers. They won't care to pay for Backup feed or the 2% to 5% that can't get Saorview (officially only 2% vs 20%+ that don't get Analogue TV3).

    RTENL certainly won't and can't give Oireachtas TV a free ride on DTT, but I'd imagine that when the Government get round to allowing FTA Broadcast access (instead of just the online streams there for years and recent UPC PayTV) they will pay the small amount extra for Satellite.

    RTENL is legally obliged to do everything on a Commercial Basis (That's what the comment about Saorsat meant in July 2012, not that there would be pay TV). Every service they offer has to be separately charged for.
    What's the source for this statement? [80cm dish]
    Someone that knows. It will no doubt be in the official low key statement soon. A 44cm dish is technically possible. But since it's not a service for the bulk of population it makes sense to limit costs and coverage.


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    #1985
    channnels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭channnels


    So you have access to a deep throat at RTE Transmission? Or you work for RTE NL? Is it fair to say you are their unofficial spokesman since I take it you seem to take the official RTE line on all things digital?


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    #1986
    channelsurfer2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    does that mean an 80cm dish will still pick up 28.2(astra for itv and bbc) or do rtenl intend to make this a non-runner as well as a 1 metre dish would now be needed? surely as a public service broadcaster rte should not be allowed to limit or indeed specify such retrograde solutions without any public comment or actually having to ask the Minister for permission to do this?


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    #1987
    Peter Rhea
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    channelsurfer2 wrote: »
    does that mean an 80cm dish will still pick up 28.2(astra for itv and bbc)

    Not while it's pointed at 9E . . .


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    #1988
    channnels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭channnels


    Irish planning regulations state that no more than one dish with a diameter of 1 metre can be installed. That dish cannot be installed either on the front of the house, the front roof slope or higher than the highest part of the roof of the house.

    If as now seems likely Saorsat requires a 80cm dish then there might well be issues with adding another dish for UK channels unless that 80cm dish can support an extra LNB pointed at 28 east.

    With those restrictions in place Saorsat sounds like RTE intend it to be the last resort option for reception, to be used only if a Saorview signal cannot be obtained under any circumstances.


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    #1989
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    my 90 x 95 cm dish is pointed at 16E
    134102.png
    But it's multi-feed.
    Left 28
    19E -|- 13 - 9 right

    An 80cm pointed at 10E may work for 28, 19, 13 & 9E, especially in Southeast.

    In Donegal or SW Cork you might need 90cm to 110cm for 9E and 28E. Probably the Triax in the picture (which is 90cm wide and 95cm tall, but I don't know which model it is).

    A new hole needs drilled about 3cm to 4cm off centre on the Triax bar to allow 9E to be close to Arm of dish and 28E more offset.


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    #1990
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    channnels wrote: »
    RTE intend it to be the last resort option for reception, to be used only if a Saorview signal cannot be obtained under any circumstances.

    That's what they have been saying since the day (in July 2010 I think) they first presented the solution to the Oireachtas Communications Committee.

    In the S.E. of Ireland a 50cm Dish is big enough for Sky/Freesat. as you go to extremes of North or South of the West Sky/Freesat (esp. the Eurobird beam) need a larger dish. So you make the 9E LNB close to dish arm and 28E LNB weaker by further from Arm on dish size according to location (for Sky/Eurobird/Freesat variation more than Ka-Sat)


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    #1991
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    Someone that knows. It will no doubt be in the official low key statement soon.

    It this the same "someone who knows" who previously led you to believe a 65cm dish would suffice?


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    #1992
    channnels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭channnels


    Hmm. I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have avoided Metalwork classes in school. Looks like Saorsat will be a great opportunity for blacksmiths to fashion locality-specific dish brackets to allow 9e and 28e on one 1m dish.


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    #1993
    channnels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭channnels


    Apogee wrote: »
    It this the same "someone who knows" who previously led you to believe a 65cm dish would suffice?

    Either Watty has a RTE NL deep throat or Watty is part of RTE NL. Party line and all that.


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    #1994
    Ronnie Raygun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Ronnie Raygun


    Are you one of our "closed account" friends signed up again?


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    #1995
    Astro7
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Astro7


    Just got a Ka-Sat LNB from Onwave....testing on a 36x42 cm dish
    here in Bray....84% on Level and 65% on Quality with a Technomate 6900 HD


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    #1996
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    See http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76871867&postcount=435
    84% on Level and 65% on Quality

    FORGET level, irrelevant.

    Quality without knowing sky /weather is meaningless.

    Reports of quality vs No cloud, overcast, heavy dark cloud, mist, drizzle, light rain, heavy rain and downpour. A screen clip of the radar on met.ie at the time too.

    (Alt Prt Scrn, paste into edit program, crop, save and upload).

    Ka-Band changes greatly with weather.


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    #1997
    martin12
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭martin12


    Astro7 wrote: »
    Just got a Ka-Sat LNB from Onwave....testing on a 36x42 cm dish
    here in Bray....84% on Level and 65% on Quality with a Technomate 6900 HD

    What size dish Zone 1 or 2


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    #1998
    Peter Rhea
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    36 x 42cm isn't a Sky dish zone anything.


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    #1999
    Deep diver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Deep diver


    Are sky zone dishes designed for 10-12ghz, as Soarsat is 20 ghz approx, so saorsat antenna should be more precise ? And would the holes in the sky dishes not cause problems in rain, as it could alter the surface accuracy of the antenna, so signal level tests should be done in poor weather conditions! And with a professional metre.


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    #2000
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sky dishes are no use:
    1) Not accurate enough for 20GHz
    2) Apparently too small.
    3) Definitely two small for reliable dual feeds of anything in Ireland.

    Rain isn't the problem for a perforated dish (or a mesh dish in fibreglass), but the size of holes and the distortion of the dish. They are not even very good 11GHz dishes, built down to a price.


    No. you don't need poor weather. You do need to know what the BER should be for clear sky, drizzle and heavy rain so you have the required margin if doing a non-standard multiple feed. But if you use the Approved size of dish you just align properly with the meter as the dish size takes account of margin needed for heavy rain.

    A Wavefrontier T90 may be suitable for multifeed as the LNBF for Ka-Sat can be set to opposite polarity. The smaller Wavefrontier is too small.


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    #2001
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Peter Rhea wrote: »
    36 x 42cm isn't a Sky dish zone anything.

    Sounds like a Camper van or Caravan dish for mainland Europe. Too small for reliable ANYTHING in Ireland in the rain.


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    #2002
    moro_original
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭moro_original


    Hi Watty,

    Just wondering, and I understand we don't know yet, but would you think a 65 cm dish is sufficient. I would intend only using it for Ka-Sat (no offsets).

    However, complicating matters I'd be putting it up on the outskirts of Belfast in Co. Down. :S

    Thanks :)


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    #2003
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    This is likely NOTHING LIKE the RTE Announcement to be made shortly!

    Summary:
    1. Saorsat is an infill and backup service (we knew that from RTE statement at the Committee hearing July 2010 I think)
    2. It's on 9E Ka-Sat. (I said that on the day it was announced, based on my remembrance of meetings about Ka-Sat with the people people providing it for Internet. But only now RTE admit this is true!)
    3. The service is going ahead (I never believed it would not, but that's "official")
    4. RTENL and RTE are "happy" with Coverage (But we don't know what their goals are!), testing completed.
    5. The Service might not be "live" when the "Announcement" is made. It may be live later, but will be live before ASO, 24th October 2012.
    6. The Onwave LNBFs are the real thing (But they "jumped the gun" selling them already).
    7. Everyone that sells Sat gear in Ireland ought to have the Ka-band LNBFs before the service is live.
    8. There might be only 20,000 LNBFs (But there might be 25,000 households that can't get Saorview, but 10,000 to 15,000 of those might have Irish TV via Sky so won't bother)
    9. The dish is 80cm for a single feed! (44cm is technically possible, it sort of makes sense what they are doing! The south east can likely offset LNB for 28E and point at 9E, larger dishes needed esp for Eurobird channels from 28E in North West and far South West. The Ka-Sat Irish Spot footprint better than Eurobird for Donegal.
    10. It's likely at launch and maybe indefinitely no TV3 or 3E (As they are not going to pay even a small amount for maybe 1% to 2% more viewers when DTT has already added 3E and given them nearly 20% more than Analogue)
    11. You need a DVB-S2 box with MHEG5 and HD. (A Freesat box with Diseqec and "other channels" will at least tune the stations. There is 3rd party SW for Humax to semi-integrate the channels into "freesat mode" and keep Diseqc active)
    12. You need dual feed or two dishes to get Sky/Freesat and Saorsat. A Diseqc switch is only good for one tuner. For a PVR you need 2 x Diseqc switches or a Multiswitch. A multiswitch can do 8 x PVRs and even Sky boxes (but only for Sky, sub or not). Multiswitches can be extended to 1000 rooms and four satellites.
    13. A good meter is needed for Alignment as setting up an 80cm dish Ka-Band is about as hard as perfectly aligning a 1.1m dish on Freesat (x4 harder than 65cm on Sky/Freesat!), but no Skew adjustment.


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    #2004
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    moro_original wrote: »
    Just wondering, and I understand we don't know yet, but would you think a 65 cm dish is sufficient. I would intend only using it for Ka-Sat (no offsets).

    However, complicating matters I'd be putting it up on the outskirts of Belfast in Co. Down.

    see point (9)

    80cm is minimum for "Ireland". Belfast may need 90cm to 110cm. I don't know for sure. Maybe 80cm might work.

    Remember effect of heavy overcast can be as much as a light drizzle. Heavy rain has a big impact.


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    #2005
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    watty wrote: »
    There might be only 20,000 LNBFs (But there might be 25,000 households that can't get Saorview, but 10,000 to 15,000 of those might have Irish TV via Sky so won't bother)

    On the other hand......

    Some Freesat users may opt for a dual Freesat/Saorview setup and not bother with Saorview even where Saorview is available ?

    Or they might have no interest in Irish TV

    Or they might have no interest in any TV
    watty wrote: »
    80cm is minimum for "Ireland". Belfast may need 90cm to 110cm. I don't know for sure. Maybe 80cm might work.
    I can see a big political issue being made out of this.


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    #2006
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No, because crazily there will be RTE /TG4 funded transmitters IN N.I.


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    #2007
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    No, because crazily there will be RTE /TG4 funded transmitters IN N.I.

    RTÉ/UK Government funded transmitters, TG4's share of the costs will be paid by British Government.


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    #2008
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Saorsat pages updated
    http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/
    http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/


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    #2009
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Box:
    box.jpg

    Contents:
    side.jpg

    Specs:
    boiler.jpg

    The LNBFs have a different LO to the Hughes units (21.2GHz vs 18.75GHz).

    So to scan into a receiver without changing LO settings and assuming a Universal LNBF:

    21200MHz - 20185MHz = 1015MHz and 9750MHz + 1015MHz = 10765MHz.

    The 80cm dish is also Inverto branded:
    dishcont.jpg

    And not bad value for €30 at all:
    dish.jpg


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    #2010
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    What diameter is the Horn? Will it sit closer to a common Ku horn than a pair of Ku LNBs?
    (Looks similar diameter to the dielectric Alps Ku LNBs that are "pointy" rather than metal horn) In theory it can be about 30% less diameter than similar aperture Ku Horn.


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    #2011
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    watty wrote: »
    No, because crazily there will be RTE /TG4 funded transmitters IN N.I.

    Yes but the proposed transmitters will not give complete coverage which was supposed to be the whole point of Saorsat in the first place ?
    The Cush wrote: »
    RTÉ/UK Government funded transmitters, TG4's share of the costs will be paid by British Government.

    I wonder how long it will be before RTE start arguing that it should recieve a share of Northern Irish TV licence revenue :eek:


This discussion has been closed.
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