RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

dmm1000

Hi All
just curious are any of you experimenters using any recommendable low cost signal meters to line up Saorsat at 9 degrees east - looking to try and soon set this up here in Donegal - any signal meter recommendations ?

I assume Saorsat is aligned on the "Clarkes Belt" arc of satellites

watty

copacetic wrote: »

Is it better/cheaper than the current use of Sky as a backup?

Sky can't be used for the Digital channels economically as a backup. It would require transcoders at every site. That's 10 x the HW cost of rebroadcasting Saorsat, which at worst only needs a cheap re-multiplexer.

As to Saorsat cost compared to existing Sky boxes feeding Analogue? I don't know. We are unlikely to know.

zg3409

dmm1000 wrote: »

Hi All
just curious are any of you experimenters using any recommendable low cost signal meters to line up Saorsat at 9 degrees east - looking to try and soon set this up here in Donegal - any signal meter recommendations ?

Any sat meter will work. Even cheapo lidl models. However an 80cm dish will be quite difficult to point as it is so directional. If you have never setup a dish before, mount it so it can face south, then pay a professional about 50 quid to visit and point it. If you are only aligning one dish then you will end up spending more than that on a meter and with a cheapo meter you may end up for 3 or 4 hours in the cold. I know many people that gave up, and I had great problems at the start.

If you are going to do it yourself setup a TV outside right beside the dish. The satellite box will need to be tuned in advance, best to do this at someone's house who has Saorsat already setup. A box and TV outside is better than a cheap meter. Box MUST be pre-tuned.

Yes. It is more south than Sky/Freesat Dishes. About 20 degrees more south

dmm1000 wrote: »

I assume Saorsat is aligned on the "Clarkes Belt" arc of satellites

Yes. 9 East. Have you read the thread, got the right box, DiSEqc switch etc?

If it is your first time, video yourself from the start to the end and put it online! Take photo's too.

copacetic

watty wrote: »

Sky can't be used for the Digital channels economically as a backup. It would require transcoders at every site. That's 10 x the HW cost of rebroadcasting Saorsat, which at worst only needs a cheap re-multiplexer.

As to Saorsat cost compared to existing Sky boxes feeding Analogue? I don't know. We are unlikely to know.

10x the HW costs at the sites but no actual cost to get the signal there, so €1million or so saving a year compared to Saorsat? Would that not mean that at the very worst you have the same cost in year one, then it's be a million cheaper a year from then on to continue to use sky feeds to back up saorview?

10x sounds very expensive also? A simple hdmi to sdi from a few sky boxes, into a basic static mpeg4 mux would be cheap enough?

That way you can also back up the TV3 and 3E service, if you are using Saorsat as a backup the fact they aren't on it is quite a problem. I.e they pay a million a year each to be on Saorview but every time there is a problem you move to a backup that doesn't have them present? There will need to be a backup for them also anyway, which presumably will continue to be Sky?

satwyn

zg3409 wrote: »

Any sat meter will work. Even cheapo lidl models. However an 80cm dish will be quite difficult to point as it is so directional. If you have never setup a dish before, mount it so it can face south, then pay a professional about 50 quid to visit and point it. If you are only aligning one dish then you will end up spending more than that on a meter and with a cheapo meter you may end up for 3 or 4 hours in the cold. I know many people that gave up, and I had great problems at the start.

If you are going to do it yourself setup a TV outside right beside the dish. The satellite box will need to be tuned in advance, best to do this at someone's house who has Saorsat already setup. A box and TV outside is better than a cheap meter. Box MUST be pre-tuned.

Yes. It is more south than Sky/Freesat Dishes. About 20 degrees more south



Yes. 9 East. Have you read the thread, got the right box, DiSEqc switch etc?

If it is your first time, video yourself from the start to the end and put it online! Take photo's too.

you would be better off using 9e ku to find the sat then all you need tp do is swap the lnb for the ka band

watty

copacetic wrote: »

10x the HW costs at the sites but no actual cost to get the signal there, so €1million or so saving a year compared to Saorsat? Would that not mean that at the very worst you have the same cost in year one, then it's be a million cheaper a year from then on to continue to use sky feeds to back up saorview?

10x sounds very expensive also? A simple hdmi to sdi from a few sky boxes, into a basic static mpeg4 mux would be cheap enough?

That way you can also back up the TV3 and 3E service, if you are using Saorsat as a backup the fact they aren't on it is quite a problem. I.e they pay a million a year each to be on Saorview but every time there is a problem you move to a backup that doesn't have them present? There will need to be a backup for them also anyway, which presumably will continue to be Sky?

Do you know how much a set of realtime MPEG4 encoders with statistical Multiplexing costs compared with a simple Multplexer with no re-encoding?
RTE would not get the signal from Sky "free". They would have to pay.
TV3 & 3E have to pay for backup if they want it.

Why do you think BBC & Five use Intelsat 907 for feeds to sites instead of Freesat?

Also the quoted costs for Saorsat are almost certainly not comparing apples with apples costs. With Saorsat a single satellite receiver per carrier with SDI into the transmitter gear is all that's needed. The Sky route needs an setbox, viewing card and MPEG4 encoder per channel, plus ongoing payments to Sky. Also ALL your feeds need to be on Sky. Sky pays for all Irish 28E carriage and encryption, but only for the channels they want to transmit. RTE can't make Sky take RTE news now or RTEjr/RTE1+1 if Sky aren't interested.

Currently there will be no back up for TV3 & 3E DTT as obviously they are too broke and penny pinching to pay for it. It's likely the per channel cost excluding uplink and and infrastructure costs for Saorsat is less than Sky's EPG charge OR 28.2E carriage. I'm sure using Sky to provide a backup feed for 3E and TV3 on DTT on every site would be more expensive than putting TV3 and 3E on Saorsat.

If TV3 thought the cost of DTT is more than the revenue they could simply pull out of DTT and be only on Satellite and cable. It's a risk and I don't think BAI can stop them doing it. All they need to do is feed UPC and Sky from outside Ireland.

channnels

How reliable are the existing fibre links?

MarkK

watty wrote: »

Currently there will be no back up for TV3 & 3E DTT as obviously they are too broke and penny pinching to pay for it. It's likely the per channel cost excluding uplink and and infrastructure costs for Saorsat is less than Sky's EPG charge OR 28.2E carriage.

Could RTE and TV3 do a deal whereby RTE would temporarily add TV3 to Saorsat whenever there is a problem with the fibre link to a major transmitter, saving TV3 the ongoing bandwidth costs, but still meaning there is a form of backup?

channnels

Sounds a reasonable suggestion.

Macy0161

It'd be better if TV3 would just pony up instead of playing the poor mouth the whole time. This is the type of carry on that makes licence fee funded broadcasting a necessity.

watty

TV3 would still have to pay more. These are the people than in in contravention of their licence refused to pay for full Analogue coverage to save money (extra cost vs amount of advert revenue lost).

The charge to be on Saorsat is unlikely to be much. It's TV3 is the problem. DTT coverage I think will be costing them less than full analogue coverage. But people (especially BAI and Government) like to Bash RTE. In terms of content, presenter salaries and some of their management practices they of course invite a good "bashing". BAI and Government "bash" them for the wrong things.

watty

channnels wrote: »

How reliable are the existing fibre links?

Fine till someone with a JCB digs them. Some sites use Microwave. But no matter how good, equipment fails.

channnels

TV3 are under no obligation to pony up for Saorsat. Their obligation is purely to Saorview. Saorsat is an RTE initiative and is a commercial venture. Why should TV3 line RTEs pockets any further?

Macy0161

channnels wrote: »

Why should TV3 line RTEs pockets any further?

Line RTE's pockets, or actually pay for a service that they will benefit from? It's role as back up provides a service to TV3's existing terrestrial customers. The role as an in fill actually gives them more customers, with less competition compared to the pay TV options.

btw I expect the weak arse BAI to cave into TV3, again, and make RTE put them on the service in the end.

Elmo

channnels wrote: »

TV3 are under no obligation to pony up for Saorsat. Their obligation is purely to Saorview. Saorsat is an RTE initiative and is a commercial venture. Why should TV3 line RTEs pockets any further?

Why don't TV3 provide their own Saorsat so? 3Sat. If it is a commercial venture they should have no problem doing it.

watty

TV3 are under no obligation to be on Saorview either in reality.

watty

Elmo wrote: »

Why don't TV3 provide their own Saorsat so? 3Sat. If it is a commercial venture they should have no problem doing it.

That would cost more than sharing RTENL's carrier/virtual transponder. Not much more.

dmm1000

this is the meter i have - its not a DVB-S2 meter - I guess it wont do the job for Saorsat alignment?

excollier

If you use an ordinary Ku lnb and align the dish to Eurobird 9 at 9E then swap out for the Ka lnb, see what you have then.
It might/should work on the Ka as it only gives a signal strength reading.
Roughly where do you live?

dmm1000

thanks Excollier
this will be attempted for a friend on the outskirts of Glenties (little area called meenavale) where there is poor saorview coverage probably using an 80 cm dish standalone initially just to see if we can pick up Saorsat

maybe the 80cm might not be large enough to pull in anything off 9E Ku band but i'll have a play

excollier

80cm should be ok to locate 9e Ku.
Just from interest, try using a group C/D aerial and aiming for Truskmore, Sligo.
I did this for a house near you 12 months ago and got Saorview, no problem

zg3409

dmm1000 wrote: »

this will be attempted for a friend on the outskirts of Glenties (little area called meenavale)

I see a big white spot on the coverage map for Meenavale. This is the point of Saorsat. That finder should work fine for both KU and KA LNB. It might end up actually being easier just using the KA LNB as there is so little out there at 20Ghz.

The usual recommendations:
Solid dish, not perforated
HD Sat box with DVB-S2, powercity walker probably best.
Pre-tune box if at all possible.

Consider an offset feed for Freesat, if it can be mounted to chosen dish. No really strong cheap solution available yet, to allow Saorsat LNB in prime focus with Freesat LNB 20 degrees to one side.

excollier

There was a big white spot in the location where I adjusted the other aerial, Knockletteragh, but it worked anyway.
Don't rely totally on the coverage checker.

C3P0

The Cush wrote: »

Ciaran999 (Onwave???) posted this about the Walker WP75SAT-HD previously - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76461857&postcount=31

He also posted that TV3/3e were unlikely to be carried because of programme rights issues.

Does anyone have this receiver? Information and pictures seems thin on the ground. I'd be interested to see what the interface looks like, and whether the box has SCART socket(s).

givecredit

Just swapped my ku sat 9e lnb on my 6 sat setup for KA sat lnb that I bought from onwave.

Now have 28deg, 23 deg, 19deg, 16 deg, 13 deg and 9 east ka on one
110cm triax td sat dish. Weather light rain now. In Ballinasloe. Centred on 16deg east

Plan to try multisat setup on 80cm dish that came with lnb from onwave. Hopefully over weekend. I will be greedy first and try 28east -9east. See how i get on with astra 1n and 2a. Not bothered about eurobird. If unsuccessful, I hope to be able to get 19, 13 and 9east. Centred on 13. I plan on using one or two of the brackets that i purchased recently.

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/MULTI-LNB-HOLDER-3-LNBs-FITS-ALL-DISHES-/260948250236?pt=UK_ConEle_SatCableFreeview_RL&hash=item3cc1ba4e7c

zg3409

C3P0 wrote: »

Does anyone have this receiver? Information and pictures seems thin on the ground. I'd be interested to see what the interface looks like, and whether the box has SCART socket(s).

According to powercity it has 1 scart socket,

copacetic

watty wrote: »

Do you know how much a set of realtime MPEG4 encoders with statistical Multiplexing costs compared with a simple Multplexer with no re-encoding?
RTE would not get the signal from Sky "free". They would have to pay.
TV3 & 3E have to pay for backup if they want it.

Why do you think BBC & Five use Intelsat 907 for feeds to sites instead of Freesat?

Also the quoted costs for Saorsat are almost certainly not comparing apples with apples costs. With Saorsat a single satellite receiver per carrier with SDI into the transmitter gear is all that's needed. The Sky route needs an setbox, viewing card and MPEG4 encoder per channel, plus ongoing payments to Sky. Also ALL your feeds need to be on Sky. Sky pays for all Irish 28E carriage and encryption, but only for the channels they want to transmit. RTE can't make Sky take RTE news now or RTEjr/RTE1+1 if Sky aren't interested.

Currently there will be no back up for TV3 & 3E DTT as obviously they are too broke and penny pinching to pay for it. It's likely the per channel cost excluding uplink and and infrastructure costs for Saorsat is less than Sky's EPG charge OR 28.2E carriage. I'm sure using Sky to provide a backup feed for 3E and TV3 on DTT on every site would be more expensive than putting TV3 and 3E on Saorsat.

If TV3 thought the cost of DTT is more than the revenue they could simply pull out of DTT and be only on Satellite and cable. It's a risk and I don't think BAI can stop them doing it. All they need to do is feed UPC and Sky from outside Ireland.

I did absolutely clearly say a simple static mux, not a stat mux. You don't need a stat mux for the backup. You could leave the +1 and Jr channels off the backup, they are only repeats anyway. Much more important to have tv3 and 3e on your backup system. If and when the other channels become watchable they will be on sky also.

Also if you use RTE NLs Saorsat feeds as a backup for RTE NLs saorview service, then you have multiple single points of failure at RTE NL. Much better to use Sky's vast resources to to provide your backup feeds.

This new idea that Saorsat is better and or cheaper backup is simply untrue,it's not better or cheaper. It's not fit for purpose as backup and imo likely significantly more expensive.

Why would TV3 or 3E pay for a backup? They pay for a service with an SLA, if RTE NL can't meet that SLA, they need to have a backups in place to do so. Which you seem to be agreeing they require.

watty

Even a static mux the MPEG4 encoders are too expensive.
I costed a national TV system a few years ago/

The CHEAPEST solution then was to feed sites via Intelsat 907 and one head-end MPEG4 encoder system. Ka-Sat for same bandwidth is cheaper than anything else.

Using Sky as a backup feed is the worst solution and the most expensive.

copacetic

We will have to agree to disagree then I guess, especially since you've provided absolutely nothing to back up your claims that Saorsat is a viable or even desirable backup for Saorview. Ka sat bandwidth is of course cheaper than IS 907 or 905 bandwidth, but it's not cheaper than the bandwidth already provided by sky. Static mpeg4 encoders are very affordable and if that cost is a problem you could use dirt cheap mpeg2 encoders at tx sites.

Your obviously very knowledgable Watty, but there are plenty of other experts out there, just claiming that you are right every time someone disagrees with you doesn't make it so.

MarkK

copacetic wrote: »

We will have to agree to disagree then I guess, especially since you've provided absolutely nothing to back up your claims that Saorsat is a viable or even desirable backup for Saorview.

Surely it's self evident that you don't want the hand Sky such an important role in the transmission the national TV service, they are foreign company who are broadcasting the RTE channels as a 'favour' to their customers.