RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

watty

Or Triax 90cm or 110cm if you want dual feed in Donegal.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

On the supplied photo we can roughly see the Analogue levels only. The "marker" on the Saorsat peak is 62.9dBuV. We have no idea how "good" that is without comparing with totally clear sky and worst rain attenuation the link designed for. We can roughly see the analogue SNR and S(N+I)R. We should have been told the dBuV at levels of red and purple lines by the marker moved to those two points. Impossible to estimate from screen shot.

Had you bothered to read the entire post properly, you could have easily calculated the SNR for yourself.

watty wrote: »

Apogee is pretty expert. He should know better than to put up that screen shot and assert "65cm" is fine. Perhaps if he explains the logic with worked figures?

I have never claimed to be expert. But then, I don't feel to the need to continually remind people that I'm a "qualified communications engineer" either.

watty wrote: »

I'm a qualified communications engineer and at this stage I'd not make any claim on dish size based on any observation I make or Apogee makes unless it's got a lot more information.

The difference being that while several posters on here have been making hands-on observations since the start of the tests, including in the pissing rain, you'd sooner dimiss them and rely on what your friend down the pub told you.

watty

The difference being that while several posters on here have been making hands-on observations since the start of the tests, including in the pissing rain, you'd sooner dimiss them and rely on what your friend down the pub told you.

That's almost libel. It's certainly completely speculative.
I don't even go to the pub. It was Ciaran99 that claimed to be told about it down at the Pub.

I haven't published results of any of my tests as I think the information is worthless. All the publish observations are worthless without knowing what the final live service power & FEC is and if the nearest French and Scottish spots are running with carrier on same or overlapping carrier frequency and what symbol rate and power they are.

I actually fabricated a horn for the Hylas LNB/ODU. After thinking about it for a while I decided it was all a waste of time to publish anything before RTE confirms what is being received is the real service with final parameters. Also it's likely there will be a 2nd carrier for the 2nd Mux. That will slightly change the quality of the signal. Also I can feed the LNBs to a real Lab bench calibrated HP spectrum analyser to compare levels, not the basic portable ones that installers use. It actually works to 18GHz directly and 47GHz with an external mixer. I have used it on X band and Ku band directly using a Waveguide to Coax transition.

Subsequent mux if they ever happen are unlikely to be on Saorsat as they would likely be pay TV.

This is the first time such a satellite has been deployed with TV (The USA multispot Wildblue KA Band has no TV) and the first time such frequency and polarisation reuse from the same orbital position has been deployed within Europe. Also the first Ka-Band TV in Europe. As a result all the reception reports at this stage are fairly meaningless for the the final service over the next year as Ka-Sat gets "populated".

We don't have signal strength contours nor the signal level change designed for between worst conditions where operation is still expected and the truly clear sky. All we have are Internet connection service areas. It's very likely that for a "reasonable" size dish and maximum carrier that the spots might be x4 to x6 the area shown if there were only four spots rather than 82 spots re-using the two sub-bands and two polarities.

Had you bothered to read the entire post properly, you could have easily calculated the SNR for yourself.

No, suitably accurate information isn't there. If you read my post properly you'd understand why.

If you are not expert why do you rubbish the posts of people that are experts. Why do you claim you know better?

I can't name my (accurate) sources. But I've been FAR more often right than wrong in the past. If I guess or speculate I say so.

moro_original

Having looked at Apogee's original post you can see that when the incorrect polarisation is used the 'noise' is 50 dBuV. The signal is circa 62 dBuV, so roughly a 12 dB SNR (based purely on signal amplitude, not considering the modulation).

It would be interesting to have a plot of signal strength / SNR against time with secondary axis giving an indication of relevent weather conditions. A nice project I might have to think about.

watty

Unfortunately that isn't useful unless we know how far he is from the spot that uses that polarisation and frequency, if it's running or not, what sort of test gear it is and the exact weather.

So 12dB SNR is not anything like accurate. Also without knowing the exact weather (it's pissing rain isn't accurate enough) that can't be related to any particular margin. If the red dotted line is about 50dBuV on the edited version of Apogee's screen shot then the real margin was a lot less than 12dB with the weather and dish and alignment he had, given whatever carrier EIRP, FEC, symbol rate and DVB-S2 APSK mode was in use at the time. How much less is really not possible to say. How much Analogue SNR margin is needed for final service? We don't know. So can't assume a particular size dish. At least two usually good sources say 80cm is the minimum. Thus it's arrogance and misleading the public to suggest due to the reception report that "65cm would do".


Then you need to know what Symbol rate, carrier power, FEC and DVB-S2 APSK parameters the real service transmission is using. There simply isn't the information to guess what minimum dish size is needed from that post. I doubt Apogee will ever admit it. He will continue the personal attacks as he has always done when any one criticises any aspect of his posts.

Any report need this from www.met.ie as a minimum:

captured via screen from http://www.met.ie/latest/rainfall_radar.asp

BTW, why shouldn't I claim Apogee is expert, based on the usually high standard and informative nature of his posts.

tomslick

Just have finished my low end setup. Ka lnb taped to the side of a Ku lnb. Dish driven to 13east. Ka feed into port 2 of a 4 way diseqc and into second tuner of a Vu duo. Transponder readings on Vu SNR 50-52%, AGR 43-45%, BER 0. Dish is a Triax 110.

Picture is perfect. Weather is heavy cloud and rain.

Gipo3

dish size?

Apogee

watty wrote: »

I haven't published results of any of my tests as I think the information is worthless. All the publish observations are worthless without knowing what the final live service power & FEC is and if the nearest French and Scottish spots are running with carrier on same or overlapping carrier frequency and what symbol rate and power they are.

Why don't you ask your source to provide the live service power and FEC and then the claim that an 80cm dish is required can be verified?

watty wrote: »

Also I can feed the LNBs to a real Lab bench calibrated HP spectrum analyser to compare levels, not the basic portable ones that installers use. It actually works to 18GHz directly and 47GHz with an external mixer. I have used it on X band and Ku band directly using a Waveguide to Coax transition.

Does the HP unit provide BER readings for DVB-S2 QPSK modulated signals?

Apogee

watty wrote: »

So 12dB SNR is not anything like accurate. Also without knowing the exact weather (it's pissing rain isn't accurate enough) that can't be related to any particular margin. If the red dotted line is about 50dBuV on the edited version of Apogee's screen shot then the real margin was a lot less than 12dB with the weather and dish and alignment he had, given whatever carrier EIRP, FEC, symbol rate and DVB-S2 APSK mode was in use at the time. How much less is really not possible to say. How much Analogue SNR margin is needed for final service? We don't know. So can't assume a particular size dish. At least two usually good sources say 80cm is the minimum. Thus it's arrogance and misleading the public to suggest due to the reception report that "65cm would do".

So you make a big song and dance about not being able to calculate the SNR, and when it's subsequently pointed out to you that the answer was staring you in the face all along, you change tack and dismiss it as irrelevant.

watty wrote: »

Then you need to know what Symbol rate, carrier power, FEC and DVB-S2 APSK parameters the real service transmission is using. There simply isn't the information to guess what minimum dish size is needed from that post.

You're now claiming that an 80cm will be required, despite claiming for the last several months that a 60cm or less would be sufficient. Where's your evidence to support this claim?

watty wrote: »

He will continue the personal attacks as he has always done when any one criticises any aspect of his posts.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

UlsterMan

Got one of the Inverto KA Band LNB's today. Set up a Zone 2 Sky dish (handy at the time) and had no problems getting it to work. Based in Portadown.

The Cush

UlsterMan wrote: »

Got one of the Inverto KA Band LNB's today.

Where did you buy it? I see Vanjak have zero stock now, they had over 70 in stock on Fri afternoon.

Astro7

Try Onwave for Ka band Lnb's .....www.onwave.ie/saorview_parts

The Cush

Astro7 wrote: »

Try Onwave for Ka band Lnb's .....www.onwave.ie/saorview_parts

I have one, just wondering if onwave are shipping north?

zg3409

The Cush wrote: »

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&path=27&product_id=352 are now selling the Ka LNBs for €49.

Price now is €59. Inflation by the week!

The Cush wrote: »

The following is from the site (emphasis is mine)
Available over most of the UK? How accurate is that statement?

I have asked them to change that. The price probably went up because they sold so many to London!!

satwyn

well at least 1 sold to wales then i'll be able to test a proper lnbf on 9e ka a hughes lnb i used in the past did work ok but a bit fiddly to mount on a channel master 1.2m dish this was before the reported dramatic signal reduction on the rte signal so will report my results in a few days

The Cush

zg3409 wrote: »

Price now is €59. Inflation by the week!

The price probably went up because they sold so many to London!!

€59+delivery costs, at that price they're not competing with Onwave or Vanjak but as you say shipping outside Ireland.

I see they've posted on this German forum - http://forum.dxtv.de/wbb/thread.php?postid=216375#post216375

zg3409

They have stolen my map!

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&path=27&product_id=352

I asked them to update the description so I suppose it's better than it was! I see they have a dedicated email address for signal reports! I would have preferred if they actually linked to my more detailed, but less refined, later map and my +/- 100 miles guess. Also they mention signal reports from wales, BEFORE, the signal was dropped by 7dB.

Maybe I should start a site, put up a map, charge a 24 Euro markup (excluding trade prices).

Step 1 ebay account
Step 2 retire on earnings

The Cush

Ka Band Twin LNB

This Twin Ka LNB is ideal for the reception of Saorsat on 9east, because its a Twin LNB you can run 2 satellite receivers from one dish and now receive RTE and TG4 all over Ireland and some of the UK. So far we have confirmed reception in Wales and the Isle Of Man, you should also be able to receive Saorsat in the South west tip of England

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&path=27&product_id=352

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&path=27&product_id=352

I assume because there is no polarity or band switching the LNB can feed more than 2 receivers via a splitter?

Sam Russell

zg3409 wrote: »

They have stolen my map!

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&path=27&product_id=352

I asked them to update the description so I suppose it's better than it was! I see they have a dedicated email address for signal reports! I would have preferred if they actually linked to my more detailed, but less refined, later map and my +/- 100 miles guess. Also they mention signal reports from wales, BEFORE, the signal was dropped by 7dB.

Maybe I should start a site, put up a map, charge a 24 Euro markup (excluding trade prices).

Step 1 ebay account
Step 2 retire on earnings

Step 1 ebay account buy ebay shares
Step 2 retire on earnings

ebay charge lots for any dealings, plus the paypal fees.

zg3409

The Cush wrote: »

I assume because there is no polarity or band switching the LNB can feed more than 2 receivers via a splitter?

There seems to be no band switching, there is polarity switching, but all RTENL is the same polarity (left hand circular)

So yes we assume so. The splitter would need to go to 2.2Ghz and would need power pass on both legs (in case one receiver is powered off, to power LNB).

Most satellite splitters with power pass on both legs and little red arrows should work.


Someone should probably make up a drawing with

1) single receiver with DiSEqc switching to two LNBs wiring
2) two receivers .......................................................
3) three receiver ........................................................
.
.
6) six receivers connected to octo LNB etc
.
.
9) nine receivers connected to a multiswitch etc

with diferent explanations for those in the north who want freeview via aerial as well.

I think the reason a twin LNB has been provided is that at some stage in the future Satellites may start broadcasting left hand circular and right hand circular signals and so a twin would be needed for more that one receiver. The twin can be considered like a Quad with two ports or a Quattro with two ports for 20Ghz. If you fed both ports to two connections on a multiswitch (13 and 18V no tone) then you could see both left hand circular and right hand circular at the same time.

channnels

Sam Russell wrote: »

Step 1 ebay account buy ebay shares
Step 2 retire on earnings

ebay charge lots for any dealings, plus the paypal fees.

Don't get carried away! You won't get rich flogging Saorsat kit to the broad seething masses as in fact there is really far less to Saorsat than meets the eye at present.

There's no guarantee that there'll be anything other than the RTE channels on it and since RTE NL are keeping the recommended dish size quite high - 80cm with possibly 110cm in Donegal (and at that size technically outside permitted planning regulations) it would seem that Saorsat is really little more than a slightly expensive white elephant.

I think that TV3 and TG4 will eventually be on it but for all the fuss and bother Saorview will be the best bet.

I would not recommend Saorsat as a viable way of getting Irish TV unless a viewer were in a complete black spot. And at that stage a Sky sub (€5 quoted minimum for RTE etc) would be a cheaper and better bet.

Also given RTE's financial predicament would Saorsat be jettisoned by RTE NL if their financial crisis really bit hard? RTE NL are legally obliged to provide Saorview - Saorsat is their commercial nice to have.

I am also wary of any technology that requires me to be a pioneer. Ka-Band TV is something NO broadcaster has done yet. We don't know what it's going to be like under the very changeable weather conditions in Ireland and the rapidly increasing size of the recommended dish for Saorsat. First we were told 44cm? then 60cm? and now it's 80cm (110cm in Donegal).

Pioneers tend to end up with arrows in their backs. I would strongly recommend to anyone considering Saorsat for their everyday RTE viewing (remember no TV3 guaranteed) to try everything possible to get Saorview. Even if Saorview isn't possible then Sky/UPC might be a fall back to avoid a BSB/Betamax like problem with possible future redundancy.

Chuck Stone

channnels wrote: »

And at that stage a Sky sub (€5 quoted minimum for RTE etc) would be a cheaper and better bet.

Could you expand on this please?

channnels

There's been some suggestions that Sky will offer a €5 per month sub for anyone just wanting the Irish channels on threat of cancellation. I'll dig out the thread in question and post a link.

Found it. Here it is: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63524697

The Cush

channnels wrote: »

There's been some suggestions that Sky will offer a €5 per month sub for anyone just wanting the Irish channels on threat of cancellation. I'll dig out the thread in question and post a link.

Found it. Here it is: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63524697

My bother was offered this option when he cancelled in early 2009 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63517246#post63517246

watty

channnels wrote: »

Also given RTE's financial predicament would Saorsat be jettisoned by RTE NL if their financial crisis really bit hard? RTE NL are legally obliged to provide Saorview - Saorsat is their commercial nice to have..

This is nonsense. Saorsat is economical for RTENL as a backup feed even if no-one watches it. But as a company supposed to be run commercially, RTENL isn't able to offer Saorsat to the Broadcasters for free. Nor can they do backup feed to TX sites for free. That also is an extra service above the normal transmission.

You realise BBC and Five are paying for Intelsat 907 AND professional encryption (BISS I think) for site backup/feed?

Also Saorsat is a tiny fraction of cost of more DTT sites. You don't work for REAL Digital or Sky?

Of course Saorview is for the majority. But anyone can avail of Saorsat if they need to.

copacetic

Is it better/cheaper than the current use of Sky as a backup?

lawhec

channnels wrote: »

There's been some suggestions that Sky will offer a €5 per month sub for anyone just wanting the Irish channels on threat of cancellation. I'll dig out the thread in question and post a link.

Found it. Here it is: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63524697

That is a random retention deal which is unpublicised, not available to new customers, not available to all looking to cancel and no PVR facilities. It's about the minimum price Sky can offer to cover costs associated to keep viewers within their ecosystem - much easier to give subscribers looking to cancel the four terrestrial channels for a token fee a month which can be switched back on easily at a future rather than taking the sky receiver out, replace it with a Freesat or sat/terrestrial combo (particularly PVRs) and be happy with the service with bringing the Sky receiver back being a little bit of a hassle - not huge, but still a little.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

This is nonsense. Saorsat is economical for RTENL as a backup feed even if no-one watches it. But as a company supposed to be run commercially, RTENL isn't able to offer Saorsat to the Broadcasters for free. Nor can they do backup feed to TX sites for free. That also is an extra service above the normal transmission.

You realise BBC and Five are paying for Intelsat 907 AND professional encryption (BISS I think) for site backup/feed?

Also Saorsat is a tiny fraction of cost of more DTT sites. You don't work for REAL Digital or Sky?

Of course Saorview is for the majority. But anyone can avail of Saorsat if they need to.

Are RTÉNL not already paying BSkyB a handy sum in commercial rates to have satellite-fed back up for their analogue TV transmissions? Without knowing the figure, Saorsat might actually save RTÉNL a good wad of money.

MarkK

watty wrote: »

You don't work for REAL Digital or Sky?

Wasn't there someone on here a few months ago claiming that RTE should do a deal with Real Digital for a FTV system for Ireland instead of Saorsat?

Good job they didn't go down that road, imagine the mess they would be in relying on Real Digital for anything

The Cush

MarkK wrote: »

Wasn't there someone on here a few months ago claiming that RTE should do a deal with Real Digital for a FTV system for Ireland instead of Saorsat?

There appears to be a few reborn members on here in recent times, can't see the logic of it as they generally revert to form.