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Possible Irish SOPA Law? :/

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  • I just strolled over to an open torrent site.
    One dvd rip file has 14,000+ seeding and 5,000+ leeching :eek:

    ... 1 site. 19,000+ people sharing it. Not to mention the users who downloaded without sharing back. Not to mention the other sites. Wow. That is something.




  • 44leto wrote: »
    Really well I am self employed so could I use that excuse for not paying taxes "I am spending it on other things" or how about when a person buys smuggled cigarettes to avoid the duty.

    Media has the effect of creating desire, we will always find money for it, but now it is all free.

    I don't fully agree with the first part of Captain Midnight's post but the second part is crucial. Optical disks won't exist in a few years regardless of the effects of piracy, and whatever replaces them we will likely be buying online from some other EU country. There are no hidden billions in VAT on CD sales that we are missing out on.

    If someone were to make a magic law that abolished file sharing everywhere and forced everyone back to buying minidiscs or something, there would probably be a reduction in the demand for media in terms of how much people are acquiring it.

    So much downloading is the stockpiling of things people would not have bought - and to be honest, with the amount of stuff on massive hard disks offline already the demand for back catalogues would have already be in question.




  • Okay, that's fair enough. I'm not opposed to the idea of protecting intellectual property, but there's a couple of points I'd like to mention.

    The content industry likes to claim every download as a lost sale. So if you download a thousand MP3's that you could otherwise buy on Amazon or iTunes for, let's say, €1 each, then the record labels like to make out that you've stolen €1,000 worth of music from them (I believe they value every illegally downloaded MP3 higher than that in reality, but that's beside the point). I'll concede that if you would have otherwise bought the MP3's, then that could fairly be counted as a lost sale, but how much of your downloading is opportunistic?

    If you make a copy of something (and I'd challenge the notion of copying as being the same as theft) that you would never have bought in the first place, you aren't depriving the IP owner of anything, material or monetary. Apply this logic across the board, to everybody who illegally downloads, and I think the number of declining sales being chalked up to piracy would take a pretty huge dent.

    You've probably spotted the obvious problem with this: any legislation built on this same reasoning would be utterly unenforceable. There's just no way you could prove someone would or wouldn't have purchased something had they not been able to pirate it. So rather than err on the side of fairness, legislators are leaning towards excessively blunt legislation with (in my opinion at least) insanely harsh punishments for non-compliance.

    I agree with you that IP needs to be protected, but do you really think prison sentences and million-dollar-plus fines are an appropriate penalty for breaking such arbitrary rules? Or that censorship laws that might shut down legitimate businesses (without necessarily making much of a dent in piracy) are an acceptable solution?

    To me, it looks like a case of private profits taking precedence over justice.

    It should be unenforceable, but like I said above, the danger is in its bluntness. If you have money, no regard for due process, access to elected politicians and an ethical code that was shaped by a world without the Internet, I think you could make a pretty good go of it.

    But I am, I am about to watch Tinker tailer soldier spy, the Bluray I defo would have rented that 6 months ago. I seen The thing a few nights ago again in top quality, that is not even in the pictures yet. Now if you are of my generation and you seen the original Carpenter film you would have been interested.

    Illegal downloading is costing the media industry that is a fact, I know because of my downloading and the people around me. I went to see underworld tonight, for a big film there were very few in the cinema. It has being quite a while since I was in a packed cinema. I do still enjoy the cinema but I go a lot less these days. So I don't buy the argument that you wouldn't have bought that media. Because I know i would have.




  • I don't fully agree with the first part of Captain Midnight's post but the second part is crucial. Optical disks won't exist in a few years regardless of the effects of piracy, and whatever replaces them we will likely be buying online from some other EU country. There are no hidden billions in VAT on CD sales that we are missing out on.

    If someone were to make a magic law that abolished file sharing everywhere and forced everyone back to buying minidiscs or something, there would probably be a reduction in the demand for media in terms of how much people are acquiring it.

    So much downloading is the stockpiling of things people would not have bought - and to be honest, with the amount of stuff on massive hard disks offline already the demand for back catalogues would have already be in question.

    Optical disc, I download it to a flash drive and play it in my playstation.




  • As of now, I drafted an email to three local TDs and sent another to Sean Sherlock, and I'll be phoning Sherlock daily if I don't get a response to my email. What have you done? Moaned a bit? Grow up and do something.

    I'm crap at this politics thing - who should I contact apart from my local TDs? Is there anyone else in the government who is potentially sympathetic and could raise this?

    When the last censorship thing came up a couple of years ago, that came to nothing in the end, Ivana Bacik was pretty helpful, and Alex White. But they part of the same party as Seán Sherlock so would going outside that help? David Norris was not and no one from Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil replied to me.

    Also, in terms of putting up a banner or protest a lá the US protest last week, apart from some of my own sites are there any popular Irish sites that would go along with it? Apart from this one obviously. I can imagine that a big message urging people to contact TDs, especially with some way of showing you who your TD is and providing a convenient form letter would do a lot more than we can on this thread or in the linked petition - we need to get people involved who are not already aware.

    I'd be happy to contribute a bit of code and a wee bit of hosting space towards any web site owners who want to put up a message or a form, though I'm not a designer. Also I'm not usually on boards so send a PM.


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  • 44leto wrote: »
    No rubbish, I only download the Blurays and I never bought one of those.
    44leto wrote: »
    Optical disc, I download it to a flash drive and play it in my playstation.

    44leto,
    Are you my identical twin or something? :pac:




  • LighterGuy wrote: »
    44leto,
    Are you my identical twin or something? :pac:

    The Bluray version you Bannable term.




  • Poland has just announced today that it won't sign ACTA, Austria & Germany have already said no too....I'm not 100% but I think Czech & Greece have said they won't sign it too.

    C'mon Ireland, don't let the govt sign it. Contact your local TD/Councillor/Rep today with a small email telling them you don't want ACTA signed.




  • Poland has just announced today that it won't sign ACTA, Austria & Germany have already said no too....I'm not 100% but I think Czech & Greece have said they won't sign it too.

    C'mon Ireland, don't let the govt sign it. Contact your local TD/Councillor/Rep today with a small email telling them you don't want ACTA signed.
    Interesting, are there any links on this?

    From what I can tell, it seems the EU parliament is due to meet tomorrow to decide whether or not to continue with ACTA, but if they agree to, it still looks like Thursday could go ahead.
    http://www.laquadrature.net/node/5052


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  • Interesting, are there any links on this?

    From what I can tell, it seems the EU parliament is due to meet tomorrow to decide whether or not to continue with ACTA, but if they agree to, it still looks like Thursday could go ahead.
    http://www.laquadrature.net/node/5052

    Yea, but they're in Polish.....I read them in Google Chrome and it auto translated.
    Anonymous had the Polish PM over a barrel over the weekend, threatening to release confidential documents if he signed ACTA. Minister of Culture said this morning that Poland won't sign it and should have a different law to protect intellectual property.

    http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,11014922,Boni__Mozemy_nie_podpisac_ACTA_26_stycznia.html

    http://www.rp.pl/artykul/796028,796372-Boni--Skradziono-dane-z-laptopa-wiceministra-cyfryzacji.html

    Another news site you can find stuff on is gazeta.pl




  • 44leto wrote: »
    The Bluray version you Bannable term.

    Do you and your mate there work for the media industry or what?




  • Yea, but they're in Polish.....I read them in Google Chrome and it auto translated.
    Anonymous had the Polish PM over a barrel over the weekend, threatening to release confidential documents if he signed ACTA. Minister of Culture said this morning that Poland won't sign it and should have a different law to protect intellectual property.

    http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,11014922,Boni__Mozemy_nie_podpisac_ACTA_26_stycznia.html

    http://www.rp.pl/artykul/796028,796372-Boni--Skradziono-dane-z-laptopa-wiceministra-cyfryzacji.html

    Another news site you can find stuff on is gazeta.pl
    That's promising; thanks!

    Translated versions:
    Boni: We can not sign ACTA January 26
    - We do not intend to introduce any new solution that would allow blocking websites - said Monday on the radio TOK FM digitization Minister Michał Boni. The government probably will not sign ACTA within the prescribed period.

    Saturdays are blocked from government websites in protest against the ACTA. This international agreement, which assumptions have to fight against piracy, but - as claimed by protesters - is taken in secret and can become a tool to cut off users from the network, forcing operators to monitor the millions of people, punishment for the most trivial cases.

    The government initially declared that ACTA will sign on Thursday 26 January. But today, the Prime Minister's Office held a special meeting on this issue.

    - I grieve that there was no consultation on ACTA. At the turn of the rule, some offices to accelerate its work . Which? Let's leave it. Made a mistake and it needs to work out, go back to the consultation. Prime Minister did not sign the authorization for the head of the MFA to sign this document. Give yourself more time - said on Monday in TOK FM Minister Boni.

    Can we not sign ACTA? - We can not sign him. I think that in Europe, will now great discussion. At least four countries, including Austria and Germany , have already decided that they do not sign ACTA within the prescribed period - he added. He recalled that ACTA is the national document, only the European, so it worked on the European officials.
    http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,11014922,Boni__Mozemy_nie_podpisac_ACTA_26_stycznia.html
    Hackers vs ACTA
    Stolen from a laptop Deputy digitization

    Someone hacked into a laptop digitization deputy Igor Ostrovsky and steal data, both private and business - Minister Michał Boni revealed

    - Hackers broke into the computer's deputy, was reporting to the police. I think it is outrageous - the minister said on the air digitization TOK FM.

    Boni also apologized for the lack of public consultation adopted by Poland ws. ACTA: - There is a deficit and the feeling that there was no consultation, I deplore this, and I apologize for this.

    - Signal a lack of consultation ws. ACTA has been heard.

    - We must have better security when it comes to servers - Boni minister said on television TVN24. He recalled the fact that hacking is against the law. - Within a few months we should audit the security administration pages, they should have a security system - he said. - New contracts are needed and appropriate instructions to the ministers.

    Premier has not yet authorized the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

    Boni stressed that the international treaties, countries may attach protocols, specifying those treaties. - Nothing in ACTA does not require changes in Polish law - said Minister Boni.

    - It is important to clarify the ACTA that vanished mythology threats - he added.

    The Minister assured that the Polish government's goal is to protect Internet users.

    - You need to find a formula which, in another way (other than the ACTA - ed) will protect intellectual property - Boni said.

    Today the Minister Boni will meet on ACTA with Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Minister Bogdan Zdrojewski. Prime Minister Tusk has not yet signed the authorization for the Foreign Ministry to sign ACTA.

    According to the announcement, in a meeting with the Prime Minister was to attend the Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski. But the Minister went to Brussels, where he will attend a meeting of EU foreign ministers.

    Who does not sign ACTA?

    Several countries have announced that for sure will not sign ACTA January 26. Boni asked if our country can sign an agreement ws. ACTA, said that Poland may also not sign ACTA January 26.

    - It will be a big debate now in the EU, whether it makes sense to sign this document - he noted. As noted, one of the signatories of the Treaty is the European Commission, and "the suggestions of various EC countries may return to this discussion" over ACTA.

    ACTA (Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement) is an arrangement between Australia, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Morocco, New Zealand, Singapore, Switzerland and the USA, which is to join the EU. His name can be translated as, "a revolution against counterfeiting," however, concerns the protection of intellectual property in general, also on the internet. According to the defenders of freedom on the Internet can lead to different content blocking and censorship in the name of fighting piracy.




  • I really want to do my part and contact my local TDs and Mr. Sherlock but I'm not too great when it comes to writing letters or trying to make a point on something like this over the phone. I've read a good bit of this thread and a few articles on this, but when it comes to contacting someone based on this I'd end up not getting my point across and coming across looking like a huge babbling eejit! Nevertheless, I will try! For the Internets!




  • I really want to do my part and contact my local TDs and Mr. Sherlock but I'm not too great when it comes to writing letters

    That's why we need a steering committee, mainly to get one coherent message that many people can sign up to and use that as a template for contacting the TDs




  • Wouldn't European laws surpass these laws if introduced?




  • Can we expect Boards.ie and a few other Irish sites to join forces to lobby the government? Broadsheet and Journal.ie would be a good start...

    It also might be a good idea to try and get Google Ireland on board... Have you tried to contact them Dev?




  • gavmcg92 wrote: »
    Can we expect Boards.ie and a few other Irish sites to join forces to lobby the government? Broadsheet and Journal.ie would be a good start...

    It also might be a good idea to try and get Google Ireland on board... Have you tried to contact them Dev?

    Well can't answer for DeVore but I have been in contact with google through EDRI. They hope that this piece of legislation will be "diluted" and will take due note of Scarlet/Sabam. So far that's about all they have to say on the matter




  • Even the greens want in on the action...http://www.greenparty.ie/news.html?n=23

    Government needs to think again before enacting new regulations blocking access to certain websites.

    The lack of any interest in the Internet in this Government is clear as it prepares to hand policy decisions over to the courts.

    Minister Sean Sherlock is intent on introducing new regulations by the end of this month which will allow for rights holders to get a court order forcing Internet service providers to block access to sites that contain illegally downloadable material. The Minister is doing so in response to a Court judgement in 2010 where Judge Charlton said he wanted to introduce such a blocking order but the Government had failed to introduce the legal measures to allow him do so.

    Green Party leader said today. "I am calling on the Government not to proceed with the introduction of new regulations which will allow for the blocking of certain websites in Ireland. The regulations he intends to introduce will not address the real problem of internet piracy but could do real damage to the growing information technology industry in Ireland."

    "The original plan was to introduce a three strikes system to restrict internet access to individuals engaged in illegal downloading but a recent European Court of Justice decision has said that the monitoring needed to police such a decision, would be in breach of privacy rights. However, Minister Sherlock is insisting that he now proceed with regulations which would allow rights holders block access to websites which allow the sharing of material without copyright."

    "People will still be able to get around the blocking systems and there is likely to be endless and expensive court hearings as judges work out the merits of cases involving thousands of different websites. The Minister is going to create a legal mess rather than solving the problem. He should instead be working with his international colleagues to reduce the income stream going to pirating activity via changes to the search, payment and advertising systems and by promoting new commercial models for the distribution of legal content."

    "The Minister is washing his hands of any policy role and leaving it to the courts to decide how we manage the internet. He seems transfixed by Judge Charlton's statement that we are not fully in compliance with European Law. The reality is that there are no infringement proceedings from the Commission on the issue and other countries such as Denmark, Spain, Finland and the Netherlands has taken a similar legal approach to ourselves."

    "The European Commission launched a new 'ecommerce' initiative on the 11th of January last (1) where it was recognised that 20% of new jobs could come from growth in this area if we get the policy right . As part of this initiative the Commission will this year publish an impact assessment on procedures for notifying and acting on illegal online content. The Government should engage in that process and examine the piracy issue within the context of wider copyright review that they commissioned last year, as the Green Party suggested in our submission to that review."

    "It is not too late for the Minister to change tack and start taking the states role in the development and regulation of the internet seriously rather than handing that responsibility over to the courts."


    1 http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/12/5&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en


    2 http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/e-commerce/docs/communication2012/SEC2011_1641_en.pdf




  • I will be posting out, and emailing this letter.
    Dear duly elected representative of the peoples of Ireland,

    I write to you today to call your attention to a matter of great importance and urgency to our nation. Before the months end, Minster of State for Enterprise Seán Sherlock is to publish an “order” which is understood to allow copyright holders to demand the censorship of Irish citizens access an open and democratic Internet.

    The Internet represents the single most important economic, social, and cultural communications tool since mankind spake his first words. The Internet’s ability to promote the free exchange of artistic expression and encourage the discussion of revolutionary ideas such as democracy makes it to the modern world, what roads were to the Romans. The Internet is the road upon which we and our children and our children’s children will prosper. Any attempt at limiting its efficacy, at censoring the free exchange of ideas and expression should be considered an attack on our liberties and our future prosperity, I hope you’ll agree. Whether you recognise it or not, your constituents certainly do and I am in no doubt that they will make you aware of this fact in the coming days.

    The Internet, spurred on by the incredible wealth of human talent on the Island of Ireland, promotes and takes an active role in the development of technologies of global significance. Its potential positive impact on our Island has yet to be fully realised; we are only now beginning to reap the rewards of our earlier labours of investing in resilient and wide spread broadband to the nation and other investments.

    Yahoo!, Twitter, Facebook, Google, AOL, FourSquare, LinkedIn, PayPal, Zynga, and many more US based companies came out to protest against similar legislation in their country (SOPA/PIPA) which aimed at addressing copyright holders concerns, by censoring the Internet. These companies and those much like them are the future lifeblood of Ireland’s knowledge economy. To believe we can summarily enact legislation that will censor the Internet and not severely detriment our economy and our democratic rights is foolhardy to say the least.

    The means by which this legislation is proposed to work will not achieve its intended result of protecting the rights of copyright holders. Infringing sites will still be accessible by even the most minimally technologically literate persons. This legislation serves only to erode our rights and discourage international investment.

    If we continue to let our rights be eroded at the whims of corporations, which place pressure on our leaders to create legislation that chips away at our ability to freely express ourselves, we will fade into insignificance on the world stage and we will have squandered the enormous potential that we, as a nation striving for a knowledge economy, have worked so hard to achieve.

    On the 11th of January, The European Commission recognised that the Internet “has enormous potential for boosting growth and creating jobs.” and that 20-25% of new jobs could come from growth in this area. Growth which will not be possible if the policies in place are more harmful than they are productive.

    I ask, with all due respect, please do not let this legislation pass.

    Yours sincerely,

    A technologically literate voter


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  • SolarNexus wrote: »
    I will be posting out, and emailing this letter.

    Excellent idea! Everyone should send this letter!

    Although I think ACTA should be included in this letter, as well as "Sean Sherlocks Order".

    We need to get the ball rolling and kill the two laws with one stone.

    There is an online petition going at the moment here and the "Stop SOPA Ireland" page is working on a website.

    When the internet companies had a massive blackout for SOPA last week, my FB feed was jammed with people talking about it. Now when I warn them about SOPA and ACTA being introduced here, nobody cares or takes notice! Its such a shame.




  • SolarNexus wrote: »
    I will be posting out, and emailing this letter.

    "Sorry, but the following letter is copyright"




  • "Sorry, but the following letter is copyright"





  • I think the problem with anything like this is everyone gets far too bogged down in arguing over whether piracy is right or wrong, that's a pointless argument. This is an issue of there being no reliable, reasonably priced service that can provide the same level of service as what is currently available for free online. I think Gabe Newell said it more succinctly than I can - "We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem," he said. "If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable."

    I think the Steam system offered by Valve is the perfect example how successful a legal system of distribution can be if it is done properly and isn't bogged down with DRM, or long delays in release dates, annoying ads etc. I would happily pay a monthly subscription to a service that provided me with up to date movies and TV shows in decent quality. Sure there's Netflix but I think if you've gone on to have a look at the current offering it's pretty bleak.

    I came across a very interesting comment on reddit in regards to piracy and copywrite -
    "At what point is copyright itself wrong? Should copyright extend forever? Why is it that I am still paying to listen to Jimi Hendrix after buying this material on 45, LP, 8-Track, Cassette, CD and now digitally? Christ, I even supported the guy by purchasing posters and tickets to his shows.
    The same holds for a the bulk of the music I listen to - and yes, I do understand that if I own this music on vinyl I own the rights - even though there is an issue as to whether I can listen to a digital version of the vinyl copy is scratched and unusable.
    I would posit that the same holds true for motion pictures. How the hell is it fair to the public to take films made during the last great depression and charge us to watch it now?
    Fine, here's another take on this subject.
    Why is it that musicians, artists and authors are singled out for this special treatment? Shouldn't the carpenter who banged the in my house get a royalty every time I walk in the door? Isn't his work valuable enough so that we should each be paying him in perpetuity? Sure, he is a work for hire but what about the architect? Why isn't he paid by everyone who enters his design? Maybe the doctor who saved my life when I was five, don't I owe him for extending my live for the extra half century that I have lived since he treated me?
    The discussion shouldn't be centered on what is legal - that's pointless. What we should be talking about is what is fair.
    And just so this post is put in perspective, I am a published author and hold two patents under my name - so protecting intellectual property is something I have a vested interest in.
    "


    SO if anything I'd urge people to consider how this law could affect both the internet and internet freedom in general instead of getting too bogged down in the argument over whether piracy is right or wrong.




  • I've sent the above mail to a few TDs now. I hope more people do the same.




  • Do support these guys as well, they work at the European level on issues like this:

    http://ffii.org/




  • I've sent the above mail to a few TDs now. I hope more people do the same.

    Ive done the same, as well as complaining to RTE about the lack of coverage they have on these issues. RTE will cover this stuff the day it comes into effect, which by then is too late. Typical RTE.





  • tor

    I know your isp wont not what your doing on it but is it possable for them to know if your running it?

    Its something I know very little about and something i will have to educate myself on before even going near it.


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  • AntoSRFC wrote: »
    I know your isp wont not what your doing on it but is it possable for them to know if your running it?

    Its something I know very little about and something i will have to educate myself on before even going near it.

    Even if they knew you were using it, they couldnt do anything about it. Its not against the law to use it, and they couldnt prove you were using it to access piracy sites.


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