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Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    He hasn't called himself Hitler.

    Hitler != Fuhrer.

    If he was going around calling himself Hitler, you could possibly construe antisemitism.

    He could be using it ins a post-modern ironic hipster kind of way.

    The ultimite anti-anti-semite.

    It's all about the context.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    I'm not getting into the technicalities of the word Hitler but would you not agree calling yourself Hitler/Fuhrer is in poor taste and might cause offence?


    You dont think calling yourself Stumpypeeps would?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭cloptrop


    well its hardly up there with kicking a black man and saying you kicked him because hes black now is it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    is stumpypeeps offensive too?

    Anti-dwarf is it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭cloptrop


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    You dont think calling yourself Stumpypeeps would?
    yeah man whats ur problem with little people ,,, or people with no limbs??


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    Des wrote: »
    is stumpypeeps offensive too?

    Anti-dwarf is it?

    Its the name of a drummer in Spinal tap. John 'Stumpy' Peeps.

    Hey, if you feel its ok to refer to yourself as Fuhrer, go ahead. I'd prefer not to align myself with the perpetrator of the holocaust.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    cloptrop wrote: »
    yeah man whats ur problem with little people ,,, or people with no limbs??

    They haven't a leg to stand on

    HEIL!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,137 ✭✭✭✭niallo27


    cloptrop wrote: »
    he was convicted of racism was he not?
    is evra a specialist on who is racist? if so why the enquiry they should have just charged him as soon as evra reported it

    You seemed to have ignored that the FA said he wasn't a racist, I presume they had experts informing then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭Quandary


    Its the name of a drummer in Spinal tap. John 'Stumpy' Peeps.

    Hey, if you feel its ok to refer to yourself as Fuhrer, go ahead. I'd prefer not to align myself with the perpetrator of the holocaust.

    But you dont mind supporting a manager and player who are indirectly propagating racism????

    the mind boggles :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    niallo27 wrote: »
    You seemed to have ignored that the FA said he wasn't a racist, I presume they had experts informing then.



    They also had experts saying that his racially charged abuse would have been abusive in Uruguay and everywhere else in South America but you have no problems discounting that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    opr wrote: »
    The fact that Suarez admitted to using the word Negro makes Evra inconsistency even worse if he knew what the word meant and actually made it out to be something different after the game.

    No it doesn't. Evra always claimed to have been called negro. He just thought it had translated to 'n*gger' and then accepted it translated to black.
    Oh you mean the explanation in which he talks about how he can't bring himself to even utter the word. That explanation seems so credible in light of the video below.

    Opr

    He offered another explanation along side that.

    That video is years old(he wasn't even at United at the time afaik) And maybe he just didn't like repeating the word 'n*gger' when he thinks it was used against him in a sustained racially abusive assault?

    Who knows? Maybe Suarez and his lawyer should have asked him about it if they felt it contradicted him?

    It's getting to the stage where minor parts of the report are being nitpicked despite it clearly justifying a guilty verdict to 99% of impartial people that read the document.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    Quandary wrote: »
    But you dont mind supporting a manager and player who are indirectly propagating racism????

    the mind boggles :confused:

    Who says I'm supporting the manager or the club in their stance on this issue. I have been supporting Liverpool for the last 25 years, I'll support them on the pitch as I always have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,137 ✭✭✭✭niallo27


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    They also had experts saying that his racially charged abuse would have been abusive in Uruguay and everywhere else in South America but you have no problems discounting that.

    Who is discounting it, I'm taking about the journo who defended the racist headline, even though the people that convicted him said he wasn't racist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,222 ✭✭✭Sappy404


    Blatter wrote: »
    It's a minor inconsistency, that was fully explained and accepted.

    Suarez' inconsistencies were not minor and did not have reasonable explanations.

    To try and make out that both Evra and Suarez were equally inconsistent is laughable when he weight of inconsistencies lies firmly on Suarez' side.

    I agree with the guilty verdict. I have reservations about many aspects about how it was reached, though, and I have to say I do not see how Evra reporting to the referee that Suarez called him a ******, then changing his interpretation of what was said to 'negro', is a 'minor inconsistency'.
    Sir Alex and Mr Evra went to the referee's room. Sir Alex went in first, followed by Mr
    Evra. Sir Alex told Mr Marriner that they had a complaint to make. Sir Alex told him "Evra
    has been called a ****** by one of the Liverpool players." Sir Alex then motioned for Mr
    Evra to tell the referee what had been said. The referee told Phil Dowd, the fourth official
    who was also in the room, to take notes of what was said. Mr Evra then told the referee
    what had been said to him on the pitch and left the room. The referee told Sir Alex that he
    (the referee) would need to speak to Liverpool officials about the complaint.
    130. Mr Evra said that he told the referee that Mr Suarez had called him a ******.

    Now as I've said, I agree with the guilty verdict because I don't believe Suarez wasn't being racist when he said what he admitted to saying. But when Evra tells his manager, three players on his team and the referee 'he called me a ******' and then, when testifying, says 'that's what I thought he meant because I speak Italian and 'negro' equates to '******' in Italian', I don't give him the benefit of the doubt. And there's a huge difference, especially when it explains the inconsistency between Suarez's initial complete denial and his later admissions.

    From what I can see, either:

    the FA have accepted Evra's dubious retrospective linguistic misinterpretation as an excuse for claiming he was called a ****** and then changing his mind but dismissed Suarez's similar explanation of his use of the Spanish word 'negro'

    or

    they see Suarez using the Spanish word 'negro' and '******' and the same with respect to the crime committed, and thus don't see Evra's reinterpretation as much of a big deal at all.

    Considering he couldn't have gotten a worse punishment if he had said '******', I'm starting to think it was the latter, which makes a full 8-game ban very harsh, and Liverpool's decision not to appeal a bit confusing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    Luis Suarez defence damages Liverpool reputation - Jason Roberts

    Liverpool could damage their reputation if they continue to insist Luis Suarez is not guilty of racist abuse, says Blackburn striker Jason Roberts.

    Suarez was banned for eight games for racially abusing Patrice Evra.

    Liverpool decided not to appeal against the ban but issued a strongly-worded statement defending the player.

    Roberts said: "Liverpool's stance of saying he's done nothing wrong goes against the spirit of our league. When you read the report, it's quite ugly."

    An independent Football Association commission ruled that Suarez, 24, had racially abused Evra during a 1-1 draw between Liverpool and Manchester United in October.

    The commission's report stated that the Uruguayan striker had used the term "negro" seven times in around two minutes and criticised him for providing "unreliable" and "inconsistent" evidence at the hearing.

    Liverpool decided not to appeal against Suarez's ban, but issued a statement saying it was their "strongly held conviction... that the Football Association and the panel it selected constructed a highly subjective case... based on an accusation that was ultimately unsubstantiated".

    Roberts, who has campaigned for Kick It Out, told BBC Sport: "Liverpool must think long and hard about how they are perceiving this.

    "They are a proud club with lots of fans of different cultures and nationalities and it's important to think about how they would feel about being treated in the same way.

    "Knowing people are from different nationalities and have different cultures is an important part of building your brand. You also have to know that players certainly don't accept being spoken to in that way."

    Suarez and Liverpool claimed "negro" was a commonly used term in the striker's homeland of Uruguay and that it was often used affectionately there.

    But Roberts, who received an MBE in 2010 for his services to sport in Grenada, added: "To use those words in that tone and context is certainly not acceptable in our leagues.

    "It's not good enough to say, 'It's OK where I come from, so we do it here'. That's not the way we judge our society or the Premier League. They were ugly scenes and I'm worried that kids would have seen this.

    "This is something that has to be told to everyone - it's not tolerated, especially in our leagues, as diverse as they are."

    Roberts, 33, says foreign players needed to be better educated about what was and was not acceptable in England.

    He added: "He [Suarez] should have been educated, that's certainly something that's come out of this.

    "If you're going to come and play in the Premier League and live in our society, it's important that you understand the rules we abide by.

    "Anyone who understands the culture here knows you wouldn't use those words, certainly not in the context in which they were used."

    Roberts also said he was concerned that Evra had been forgotten during the whole affair.

    "I'm more worried about how Patrice Evra has felt about the whole thing," he said.

    "Not enough people have spoken about him and the issues he went through. Yes, he said some things back to Suarez and there was an argument, but he would have felt incensed by what was said and rightly so."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16406960.stm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭Quandary


    Who says I'm supporting the manager or the club in their stance on this issue. I have been supporting Liverpool for the last 25 years, I'll support them on the pitch as I always have.

    Of course I have no problem with someone supporting their club. I mistakenly thought you were supporting the manner in which Kenny/Suarez were handling the issue.

    My mistake.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    Quandary wrote: »
    Of course I have no problem with someone supporting their club. I mistakenly thought you were supporting the manner in which Kenny/Suarez were handling the issue.

    My mistake.

    No the whole thing stinks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Apart from the Helen Lovejoy bit, Roberts is fairly interesting too.

    Glad to hear the views of black people on this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    Blatter wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Evra always claimed to have been called negro. He just thought it had translated to 'n*gger' and then accepted it translated to black.

    Cool that was what Evra claims! The fact is it's not what he said to the referee and so is inconsistent. The explanation that follows given the video looks like a crock of ****.

    Opr


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭cloptrop


    if he wasnt racist why would he feel the need to mention the man he was argueing was black?
    what has that to do with whether or not he kicked evra?
    if evra had of said hey man what colour am i?
    then suarez can reply you are black my friend,
    THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW CONTEXTS WHERE MENTIONING THE MANS COLOUR IS NOT RACIST
    it doesnt matter who said what, where hes from ,
    he needs to apologise , i dont know how he sleeps at night
    belittling a man because of the colour god made him
    its unforgiveable


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    opr wrote: »
    Cool that was what Evra claims! The fact is it's not what he said to the referee and so is inconsistent. The explanation that follows given the video looks like a crock of ****.

    Opr


    I know, the incomprehensible swine!


    He probably talked to the referee in English as well! Its just a crock of ****!


    You should stick to just posting excerpts from press releases and twitter, this thinking and adding your input thing has been a massively embarrassing failure for you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭Quandary


    No the whole thing stinks.

    Agreed, that it does.

    I have genuine admiration for the dedication of Liverpool supporters to their club. Like most clubs the vast majority of supporters are good people but unfortunately there is always that minority who will be unreasonable and blinkered.

    I hope this thing wraps up sooner rather than later; at this stage it's just getting uncomfortable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Divorce Referendum


    opr wrote: »
    Cool that was what Evra claims! The fact is it's not what he said to the referee and so is inconsistent. The explanation that follows given the video looks like a crock of ****.

    Opr

    Suarez broke the Fa's rules by referring to a mans skin colour, black , ******, negro it doesnt matter which one and subsequently Evra admitted he was wrong with this translation as ******. Suarez admitted himself that he used the word negro. Suarez changed his story three times but he couldnt explain away this fact that he referred to a mans skin colour and was therefore charged. Fair enough?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    I know, the incomprehensible swine!

    He probably talked to the referee in English as well! Its just a crock of ****!

    You should stick to just posting excerpts from press releases and twitter, this thinking and adding your input thing has been a massively embarrassing failure for you.

    When I can't argue with someone in a sensible way I become personal because I am not very clever. No problem I will lower myself. I mean you are pretty much regarded as the nut retard on this forum and you are trying to talk down to people ?

    Opr


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    opr wrote: »
    When I can't argue with someone in a sensible way I become personal because I am not very clever. I mean you are pretty much regarded as the nut retard on this forum and you are trying to talk down to people ?

    Opr


    Oh really, ive never seen any posts referring to me as the nut retard.

    You have a secret forum where you discuss your opinions on posters or you just PM them around to a select few of forum elders?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    Quandary wrote: »
    Agreed, that it does.

    I have genuine admiration for the dedication of Liverpool supporters to their club. Like most clubs the vast majority of supporters are good people but unfortunately there is always that minority who will be unreasonable and blinkered.

    I hope this thing wraps up sooner rather than later; at this stage it's just getting uncomfortable.

    Its a pity the problems of society have to be played out through the narrow framework of football.

    Will this ruling have any great effect on the intrinsic racism common place throughout society? I doubt it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,222 ✭✭✭Sappy404


    #15 wrote: »
    This is wrong, he only used that word with SAF. The rest of the time he used the word 'negro'.

    I've already quoted the following in mty post, from Par. 130 of the FA document:
    Mr Evra said that he told the referee that Mr Suarez had called him a ******.

    Evra said in his testimony to the FA that he told the referee that Suarez had called him a 'n****r'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭clubberlang12


    Des wrote: »
    Apart from the Helen Lovejoy bit, Roberts is fairly interesting too.

    Glad to hear the views of black people on this.

    Maybe i am being naive here and you're actually being sarcastic in two of your posts now, but would genuinely like to know whether you are being straight here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    Excellent piece ...


    The Curious Case of Luis Suarez . . . . . . .

    It has become an unavoidable cliche that the Suarez/Evra case cannot be viewed as black or white.  Since New Year's Eve, when a 115 page tome landed in our inboxes, many opinions have been expressed as to whether the FA Regulatory Commission has got it right or wrong. Most have jumped to the conclusion that since the report is well written, very long, detailed and presented in nicely worded legalese, that it must be correct.

    The truth, like with many tribunal decisions and, indeed most likely the case itself, lies somewhere in-between. There is much to be admired in the manner in which the commission dissected very complex linguistic issues as well as the nuances of what was said and not said.  They have reported the facts in great detail and the result is that many of us are in a position to draw our conclusions.

    That said, the report's findings are somewhat flawed and, in particular, the sanction meted out is completely out of line with the evidence and even the commission's own conclusions.

    I should say, at this point, I am a Liverpool fan but also the solicitor for the PFAI, the League of Ireland's players' union. Although my allegiances are naturally with Luis Suarez, I'd like to think that I would take a similar view if a League of Ireland player asked me to represent them in similar circumstances. Indeed, I have defended an Irish player, Jason McGuinness, where allegations of insulting behaviour with racial overtones were made. He received a five match ban.

    The Suarez case is unique in its complexity but in the end it comes down to some fairly basic questions.

    1. What is the burden of proof?

    2. Did Suarez use the word "negro" and, if so, how often?

    3. If he did use this word, what should the punishment be?

     

    The first question has been the subject of much debate and many commentators seem to believe that the "balance of probabilities" burden is too low. The implication is that the criminal standard of "beyond reasonable doubt" should apply.

    I don't believe this is correct and instead a hybrid that is often used in tribunals where professional conduct is the subject of review is more appropriate.  It is usually expressed as "highly probable" and it appear that the commission have rather clumsily agreed to this level by stating that this was a serious allegation and the more serious the charge, the greater the burden. It is a great pity that they didn't express this in clearer terms but I think it is fair to say that the test of high probability is what was applied and if so, I believe this was correct.

    However, it's one thing to select the right burden of proof and it's quite another to apply it. This is where the commission made its first mistake.  It's patently clear, and admitted by Suarez, that the word "negro" was used at least once. Whether it was used again is a matter of great debate and certainly could not be described as highly probable.

    Quite simply, the only evidence that there was more than one use of the word comes from Evra himself and without independent corroboration, in addition to the inevitable linguistic confusion which is central to the whole case, it simply cannot even be described as probable, much less highly probable.

    While the commission quite rightly point out inaccuracies in Suarez's evidence, they do not justify their quantum leap from this to believing everything Evra says without a scintilla of independent evidence.

    Now, this is not to say Suarez is innocent.  He's not, he deserves a ban for the inappropriate use of the word "negro" that he has admitted but this needs to be proportionate to what can be legitimately proven and not the educated conjecture of the commission.

    The range of sanctions available is effectively from two matches upwards. It is clear that he is in breach of regulations and must serve at least a two match ban.  Since there is a racial element, the entry point of four matches seems apposite.  However, the commission have erred by increasing it largely due to the extremely dubious finding that he said the offending word seven times.

    However, even if you accept that reasoning, it is very difficult to understand how considering the guidelines recommend a doubling of the sanction for a first offence and trebling for second. The effective quadrupling of the two match standard ban suggests that the Suarez findings were even worse than a standard second offence.  This makes no sense whatsoever unless you reach the obvious conclusion that the commission were seeking to make an example of Suarez rather than employing the usual rules of natural justice.

    An interesting example of how the commission glossed over certain inconsistencies while focussing on others is the manner in which it examines the motive for Suarez saying what Evra alleges he said. While agreeing that this upbringing, parentage and friends would militate against such behaviour, they can find no reason why he would engage in such behaviour and instead simply dismiss it as being out of character with no reason provided as to why he should suddenly remove himself from his normal characteristics.

    This decision was driven by desire to believe either one party or the other, in the entirety.  This was the fatal mistake that the commission made because there was no need for this. It is perfectly feasible for any tribunal to decide that part of the charge was proven and the balance was not.  And quite simply, this is what they should have done.

    So what now? In my humble opinion, Suarez should appeal.  He should admit, on the one occasion which he accepts using the word, that he was wrong to do so. He could argue that he did not use it on other occasions and such instances remain unproven in accordance with the burden of proof, but that he regrets the use of the word at all.  He should apologize for this and agree to assist the anti-racism campaigns.  He can then legitimately argue that the ban is excessive and should be reduced to the entry point of four matches.

    In my opinion, if he adopts such an approach, he will succeed in reducing the ban, maybe not to four matches but certainly to no more than six. The question now is whether Suarez is prepared to accept any level of contrition, whether football considerations will hold sway (the plethora of upcoming cup matches might provide an opportunity to see out the current ban) or whether he and Liverpool want to get the best result and help combat racism at the same time.

    There is still scope for a sensible conclusion to this fiasco but it needs brave decisions. History to date suggests we shouldn't hold our breath.

     

    Stuart Gilhooly is the solicitor for the Professional Footballers Association of Ireland and was also recently named Journalist of Year at the Irish Magazine Awards.


    He can be followed on twitter @PFAISolicitor


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭cloptrop


    mixednuts wrote: »
    Excellent piece ...
    not biased at all, and yet recommends he gets the bans out of the way while there are cup matches to absorb it
    probably sees no problem with racism ,
    he wasnt at the tribunal but speaks like he was


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