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Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    parc wrote: »
    I gotta say, I try to remain objective in this whole debate. Maybe in South America the word he used is akin to saying "black fella" over here. Not derogatory etc.

    But I gotta say, I'm delighted for him, he's a world-class asshole

    Luis-Suarez-of-Liverpool--007.jpg

    Do you know him personally? Do any of us know footballers enough to judge them?


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    efb wrote: »
    Do you know him personally? Do any of us know footballers enough to judge them?
    I think he has done enough so far in his career to allow us to make a judgement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    cournioni wrote: »
    I think he has done enough so far in his career to allow us to make a judgement.

    So, you should really qualify your judgement with that preface.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,355 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    cournioni wrote: »
    I think he has done enough so far in his career to allow us to make a judgement.

    What you mean is, he plays for a team that's a rival of that you follow, which is enough for you to make a judgement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Never thought I'd see you using goal.com to back up a point Dub. I like the fact they know everything which was said


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    Alen Hansen was asked to apologize by the BBC after referring to people of different coloured skin as "coloured" on MOTD. What in the name of god is the world comin to! Political Correctness gone mad!!!!!!!!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    The hatred for Suarez makes me smile .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    manual_man wrote: »
    Alen Hansen was asked to apologize by the BBC after referring to black people as "coloured" on MOTD. What in the name of god is the world comin to! Political Correctness gone mad!!!!!!!!!!!

    Coloured isn't a nice term at all. It suggests a white superiority. I can clearly understand why black people would be offended by using the word coloured to describe them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    mixednuts wrote: »
    The hatred for Suarez makes me smile .

    Racists aren't generally liked in our 21st century world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,355 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    mixednuts wrote: »
    The hatred for Suarez makes me smile .

    Exactly. This isn't a thread about racism - if it were John Terry would be the main focus. This is a thread for United fans to get their digs in.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    B&Q are doing a special on step ladders .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    Le King wrote: »
    Racists aren't generally liked in our 21st century world.

    Simple answer YES or NO will suffice ....

    In your opinion is Luis Suarez a racist ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,267 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    Le King wrote: »
    manual_man wrote: »
    Alen Hansen was asked to apologize by the BBC after referring to black people as "coloured" on MOTD. What in the name of god is the world comin to! Political Correctness gone mad!!!!!!!!!!!

    Coloured isn't a nice term at all. It suggests a white superiority. I can clearly understand why black people would be offended by using the word coloured to describe them.

    How the hell isnt coloured a nice word?!!!!!

    Its a descriptive word for godness sake!

    It suggests white superiority in YOUR MIND. Meaning it is YOU that has the problem, any rational thinking person wouldnt think of it in those terms. Only one who's tainted with paranoia


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭parc


    I think the last few pages have shown the agenda of most of the posters here. The captain of the England national team has been charged with racism and yet they're still only focused on Suarez.

    There's no honest outcry over racism here, it's just an opportunity to have a dig at Liverpool. I'm done.

    That's only because it two high profile clubs as opposed to one. Not many OPR fans around. Also Suarez was charged first (as it happened first) so he'll probably get most of the attention for now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,402 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    manual_man wrote: »
    How the hell isnt coloured a nice word?!!!!!

    Its a descriptive word for godness sake!

    It suggests white superiority in YOUR MIND. Meaning it is YOU that has the problem, any rational thinking person wouldnt think of it in those terms. Only one who's tainted with paranoia

    'Coloured' doesn't suggest white superiority in rational people but it does differentiate between races.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭parc


    efb wrote: »
    Do you know him personally? Do any of us know footballers enough to judge them?

    No of course not but I'm obviously getting this from his persona on the pitch


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,591 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    What was the clear evidence he was a racist?

    He used an insult with a reference to Desaillys skin color, which is exactly what Suarez has been found guilty of.

    His defense was that he didn't mean it in a racist way, same as Suarez.

    Why is one a clear racist while the other gets nothing but your undying love and support?

    Jaysus your posts are the nut low.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Exactly. This isn't a thread about racism - if it were John Terry would be the main focus. This is a thread for United fans to get their digs in.

    It's not really though as much as you would like to think. The main gripe for me anyway is the fact you're club has came out and insinuating that everything Evra said was a lie and that he has a previous history of doing so. That part of the press release by LFC has already being shown to be a complete fabrication and I hope LFC will retract those parts now that we have the full facts.

    The t-shirt's just add to the comedy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,355 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    parc wrote: »
    That's only because it two high profile clubs as opposed to one. Not many OPR fans around. Also Suarez was charged first (as it happened first) so he'll probably get most of the attention for now.

    Rubbish. It's because United fans are lapping it up and using it to get their digs in. The captain of the England international team being charged by police is a much, much bigger story than some cultural misunderstanding, but Suarez plays for Liverpool so the United fans here can use the whole thing as a stick to beat the club.

    Which they've done for 4000 odd posts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭parc


    What you mean is, he plays for a team that's a rival of that you follow, which is enough for you to make a judgement.

    No not at all. I don't like Stephen Gerrard, but I don't hate him. In fact, I respect him.

    Pepe Reina. I don't know him personally but I think he's a top lad on the pitch.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Vudgie


    It is amazing that all of boards.ie bastions and protectors of social justice and equality are out in force again today....this obviouisly has nothing to do with their need to express pleasure in seeing their rival team's most influential player banned, and exhibit nothing but contempt for fellow football fans (albeit for a different team).

    I will make a judgment based on the evidence that comes out, I fear that there is something daming in it given the severity of the ban but let's wait and see. In normal court cases one could immediately accept or reject a verdict as it has been delievered post the delivery (usually public) of the evidence, this hasn't happened here yet.

    If it transpires that this is a clear case of racial abuse then so be it and a ban is deserved as this sort of stuff needs to be stamped out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    parc wrote: »
    No not at all. I don't like Stephen Gerrard, but I don't hate him. In fact, I respect him.

    Pepe Reina. I don't know him personally but I think he's a top lad on the pitch.

    Gerard over Suarez,.., OK.


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Dub13 wrote: »
    http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/2292/editorials/2011/12/22/2813979/whats-in-a-word-the-furore-over-luis-suarezs-racism-ban

    What's In A Word? The Furore Over Luis Suarez's Racism Ban Betrays A Lack Of Cultural Understanding In The English Premier League's Multi-National Playground

    The hysteria that has erupted over the star's suspension both in England and in Uruguay shames the FA and its attempts to integrate players from all corners of the globe

    It was a situation the likes of which one experiences every day in the Argentine capital of Buenos Aires. Lining up behind an attractive, olive-skinned girl in her mid-20s in a store, in the middle of a December heatwave which pushed the mercury towards 37°C and waiting patiently as the stranger bought a box of Marlboro cigarettes. The clerk passed back her change with a smile, and the salutation "Gracias, negra".

    A completely innocuous, mundane interaction, but one that stuck in the mind due to the events that followed a matter of minutes later. On the same day, and at almost exactly the same time as that exchange, Uruguayan forward Luis Suarez was receiving an eight match ban for saying the same word to Patrice Evra on the other side of the world in England.

    It is not the purpose of this article to assign blame, to condone or crucify Suarez or to call Evra's sterling reputation as a footballer into disrepute. The pair are both professionals at the very top of their chosen career, so to descend into simple conclusions - as the temptation has been for many in the sport and in the media - is lazy and poor journalism. But to every story there is two sides, and in South America and especially Luis' home nation the reaction has been of utter disbelief.

    "Senseless", was Sebastian Abreu's word to describe the lengthy suspension, while Uruguay captain Diego Lugano went even further in calling it a "grave error", and accusing Evra of breaking football's unwritten code of what happens on the pitch, stays on the pitch. The Uruguayan government even commented in favour of their striker, but perhaps one of the most considered arguments was provided by Lazio's Alvaro Gonzalez.

    "In Uruguay we use terms that can be misinterpreted and all of us who know Luis know that he wouldn't have made the comment as a defamatory remark," he said in quotes published by Ovacion.

    "You can't call a Uruguayan racist because of that ... perhaps we are paying the price for going to live in different cultures."

    The word in question, negro, understandably appears ugly and bigoted when laid down on paper in English. As demonstrated by the anecdote at the start of this article, however, in Uruguay as in Argentina and much of Latin America it is considered a neutral, even familiar term. Friends, sons, daughters, parents are addressed with the phrase, or its diminutive negrito/a, whether they are from African, mixed-race or even European descent with blue hair and blonde eyes.

    It is not the language of politicians or diplomats, admittedly, indeed little one hears inside the lines of a football pitch would be suitable in the debating chamber of the UN. But it is the product of a society and continent in which the process of nation and population-building has made traditional labels almost superfluous.

    Some four per cent of the country's three million population claim African descent, a proportion double that of the United Kingdom and not including those of mixed heritage, believed to number around 10 per cent. This group have been settled and integrated in Uruguayan society up to 400 years, and have left an indelible imprint on the nation's culture, music and language. Suarez himself has an Afro-Uruguayan grandfather, and he is carrying on a grand tradition of multiculturalism in the Celeste football team.

    Uruguay withstood strong protest to field black players in the 1916 Copa America, a full 63 years before Viv Anderson took the pitch to become England's first black international. The history of the country's football success is littered with great players of African or mixed descent; and many, such as 1950 captain Obdulio Varela, are still remembered fondly as 'El Negro'.

    In this context, then, a misunderstanding of intent and a linguistic confusion appears to be the culprit, one for which Luis Suarez has paid for heavily. Is he really expected to know that the Spanish word he has grown up with as neutral and even affectionate his whole life was co-opted by British and American slavers in the 18th century as a synonym for African people, and used frequently until becoming taboo in the 1960s civil rights struggle? It is the content of a university thesis, not an assumption for a 24-year-old footballer adapting to a new country and culture.

    "We are indignant about the appearance of this decision ... it is absolutely disproportionate" - The Uruguay government condemns the FA

    That is not to paint Uruguay or Argentina as colour-blind paradises, far from it. Racism and racist comments are no rarer than anywhere else in the world, although more often directed towards nationalities rather than ethnicities. The fact that in Buenos Aires the term Boliviano or Paraguayo when referring to immigrants from that country can be much more pejorative than the word negro is a cultural anomaly hard to interpret for someone unfamiliar with the culture, and migrants from South America are no strangers to similar discrimination elsewhere.

    It has been widely reported, for example, that Evra called Suarez a "South American" or "Sudaca" before receiving his perceived insult, and the latter especially is horribly demeaning for those from the continent who have chosen to pursue their lives in Europe. The South American, however, left things on the field, most likely taking the angry exchange as part and parcel of making his living in a testosterone-fuelled atmosphere where tempers often fray.

    It is equally unfair to say that Evra, perhaps not versed in the history and etymology of the word in its Spanish, Latin-American context, was wrong to take offence at Suarez's language. There is no place for racial insults, however intended, in modern football with the strides it has taken in extracting this cancer in the last 25 years.

    But, as Tim Vickery mentioned in an excellent article on the same subject before the ruling, the FA had a perfect chance to demonstrate their ability to adapt to the demands of modern football. Taking Suarez in front of the board, explaining that such language can be construed in negative ways in England and handing out a light warning would have sent the player a clear message while not castigating him for his linguistic faux pas.

    In throwing the book at the Uruguayan, however, the ruling body has demonstrated an ignorance and clumsiness when faced with cultural sensitivities which has made it the object of outrage in one of the world's most inclusive football nations.

    Suarez's ban may be another step on the road to the English Premier League's enlightenment when it comes to racial controversies, but it also proves that when faced with a question of cultural understanding and compromise in a globalised football world, their attitude remains indisputably in the stone age.
    __________________
    Good article. However again, I fail to see how Evra can misinterpret the word used by Suarez as he is fluent in Spanish and good friends with Argentinian Carlos Tevez. I'm pretty sure he knows what was said to him and judging by his reaction, it wasn't nice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Leiva


    Vudgie wrote: »
    It is amazing that all of boards.ie bastions and protectors of social justice and equality are out in force again today....this obviouisly has nothing to do with their need to express pleasure in seeing their rival team's most influential player banned, and exhibit nothing but contempt for fellow football fans (albeit for a different team).

    I will make a judgment based on the evidence that comes out, I fear that there is something daming in it given the severity of the ban but let's wait and see. In normal court cases one could immediately accept or reject a verdict as it has been delievered post the delivery (usually public) of the evidence, this hasn't happened here yet.

    If it transpires that this is a clear case of racial abuse then so be it and a ban is deserved as this sort of stuff needs to be stamped out.

    Vudgie,
    I respect your posts and interested in your opinion on this ...

    If it does come out that there is no more daming evidence and the LFC statement is fact in relation to how the judgement/verdict was found, how would you feel about that ?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,250 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dub13


    cournioni wrote: »
    Good article. However again, I fail to see how Evra can misinterpret the word used by Suarez as he is fluent in Spanish and good friends with Argentinian Carlos Tevez. I'm pretty sure he knows what was said to him and judging by his reaction, it wasn't nice.

    I think this bit of the article deals somewhat with that...
    It is equally unfair to say that Evra, perhaps not versed in the history and etymology of the word in its Spanish, Latin-American context,

    English words can have different meaning in Ireland and the US for example.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Dub13 wrote: »
    I think this bit of the article deals somewhat with that...



    English words can have different meaning in Ireland and the US for example.

    The article is rubbish imo, as it says
    Friends, sons, daughters, parents are addressed with the phrase

    I highly doubt Evra and Suarez's are mates enough to use that phrase and I can't see his United teammates using it either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,474 ✭✭✭Crazy Horse 6


    I'm loving being a Liverpool supporter at the moment tbh. The way fans of other teams and the media are rounding on the club makes it all the sweeter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Vudgie


    mixednuts wrote: »
    Vudgie,
    I respect your posts but interested in your opinion on this ...

    If it does come out that there is no more daming evidence and the LFC statement is fact in relation to how the judgement/verdict was found, how would you feel about that ?

    I would think that the verdict would be on somewhat shaky ground in terms of widespread acceptance but it will not be overturned.

    In my opinion, based on the limited information/rumour that we have, the difficulty appears to be surrounding the subjective view taken by the panel in realtion to facts that are most likely to have been effectively agreed.

    I am not sure what else the FA's panel could have done if the facts were effectively agreed (again this is guesswork).

    Liverpool's statement claims that the decision has been made on the basis of Evra's word alone but I doubt that it has. It has also been based on Suarez's admission of what occurred or his evidence, and the interpretation of it.

    I am a Liverpool fan but I have to say that the greatest shame is that we are in this position in the first place.


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Rubbish. It's because United fans are lapping it up and using it to get their digs in. The captain of the England international team being charged by police is a much, much bigger story than some cultural misunderstanding, but Suarez plays for Liverpool so the United fans here can use the whole thing as a stick to beat the club.

    Which they've done for 4000 odd posts.
    You've successfully missed the point by miles. Well done.

    To be honest my main problem with this case of racism is the fact that Liverpool plead innocence and then claim that they are victims (as they often do) of a ploy by Evra and United to get Suarez banned. By doing this they have completely shunned the possibility that racism occurred and insinuated that Evra has lied on a number of occasions about receiving racist abuse in the past (which turned out to be totally false).

    What we saw from Liverpool last night was nothing short of sickening, particularly as the independent panel has made judgement on the case.

    Why oh why is it never their fault?!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    Enough is enough. This is OTT.

    The BBC has form on this issue, this is them being gagged. Have a look at the biggest association in the US that fights for the rights of black people and see what is in the 1st paragraph of their mission statement.

    The use of the word coloured cannot be offensive can it?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6132672.stm

    http://www.naacp.org/pages/our-mission

    Remember this thread is a about the discussion of racism!!!!!!


This discussion has been closed.
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