Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

astrofool

gerryo777 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me this, why if Suarez is a 'racist' and made 'racist' comments to another player aren't the police involved???
John Terry seems to have said much the same thing and he's up before the courts in febuary!!
Thing is, everyone knows that suarez is not a racist, the FA, his ACCUSER, his teammates, his fans and I'd reckon most reasonable people on here.
The guy comes from a mixed race family, his grandfather was black for god's sake.
In Uruguay the term 'nigreto' means pal,friend or buddy.
The almost hysterical postings on here adds nothing to the debate about what is a serious issue.

Because there was a complaint made to the police in the Terry case, Evra did not make a complaint to the police, hence no involvement from them. He still can make the complaint if he wanted to.

I don't think Suarez is inherently racist, he was, however, trying to wind Evra up during the game, and used terms he probably knew would belittle Evra.

I doubt he says the same thing to Johnson during training, or down the pub.

As for Terry, his (paraphrased) response to parking his Bentley in a disabled space:
"I'm involved with many charities that help the disabled."
I guess he just wants to get something back for the money he spends, ability to park wherever he wants, and call people whatever he wants.

UnitedIrishman

niallo27 wrote: »

Your spot on there, most utd fans actually worry more about Liverpool fc that their own club. Fact as a great man once said.

Says the boy. Liverpool are irrelevant to me and most other United fans unless we're playing them Saturday or they're challenging us for the title. And seeing as neither are happening soon you're very mistaken.

Only reason United fans are getting annoyed is because Liverpool are playing the 'poor us, we're the victims in all this' shi* they usually come out with and claiming our player is nothing short of a liar.

Anyways, you continue with your one sentence replies and attempts to wind people up, its getting old at this stage. u

Ordinary man

gerryo777 wrote: »

Not acceptable in the great country that is America!
I wouldn't want to follow that country's example regarding what's right or wrong.

You'd prefer we were more like the backwaters of south america:rolleyes:

cournioni

gerryo777 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me this, why if Suarez is a 'racist' and made 'racist' comments to another player aren't the police involved???
John Terry seems to have said much the same thing and he's up before the courts in febuary!!
Thing is, everyone knows that suarez is not a racist, the FA, his ACCUSER, his teammates, his fans and I'd reckon most reasonable people on here.
The guy comes from a mixed race family, his grandfather was black for god's sake.
In Uruguay the term 'nigreto' means pal,friend or buddy.
The almost hysterical postings on here adds nothing to the debate about what is a serious issue.

Just because his grandfather was black, does not mean that he is incapable of coming out with a racist statement towards Evra. That is a ridiculous argument.

Evra can speak Spanish fluently which is why Carlos Tevez and he were such good friends while Tevez was at United. I'm pretty sure he is aware that what was said to him was said to him in a derogatory fashion.

The hysterical postings on here as you say is because Liverpool FC have once again lowered themselves and have claimed both innocence and victimisation (yet again). Their show of "support" last night was nothing short of despicable after Suarez had been shown to have made a racist comment, and it reflects on the club as a whole. It was classless and tasteless at best, but then again it was Liverpool, so what else is new?!

gerryo777

astrofool wrote: »

Because there was a complaint made to the police in the Terry case, Evra did not make a complaint to the police, hence no involvement from them. He still can make the complaint if he wanted to.

I don't think Suarez is inherently racist, he was, however, trying to wind Evra up during the game, and used terms he probably knew would belittle Evra.

I doubt he says the same thing to Johnson during training, or down the pub.

As for Terry, his (paraphrased) response to parking his Bentley in a disabled space:
"I'm involved with many charities that help the disabled."
I guess he just wants to get something back for the money he spends, ability to park wherever he wants, and call people whatever he wants.

Well then surely if evra want's this kind of 'racism' out of football he'll go now and make a complaint to the police.
Or does he believe that the police will see that there's no case to answer and it would be laughed out of court.
The FA are a joke.
It'll be interesting to see if Terry gets a ban or not, him being the England captain and all that.
If he doesn't well then the FA are the biggest racists of all!!!

gerryo777

Ordinary man wrote: »

You'd prefer we were more like the backwaters of south america:rolleyes:

Did I say that?:rolleyes: Don't be racist now!

gerryo777

cournioni wrote: »

Just because his grandfather was black, does not mean that he is incapable of coming out with a racist statement towards Evra. That is a ridiculous argument.

Evra can speak Spanish fluently which is why Carlos Tevez and he were such good friends while Tevez was at United. I'm pretty sure he is aware that what was said to him was said to him in a derogatory fashion.

The hysterical postings on here as you say is because Liverpool FC have once again lowered themselves and have claimed both innocence and victimisation (yet again). Their show of "support" last night was nothing short of despicable after Suarez had been shown to have made a racist comment, and it reflects on the club as a whole. It was classless and tasteless at best, but then again it was Liverpool, so what else is new?!

Bitter little boy....

cournioni

gerryo777 wrote: »

Not acceptable in the great country that is America!
I wouldn't want to follow that country's example regarding what's right or wrong.

Likewise we wouldn't like to follow your clubs example regarding what is right or wrong.

niallo27

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Says the boy. Liverpool are irrelevant to me and most other United fans unless we're playing them Saturday or they're challenging us for the title. And seeing as neither are happening soon you're very mistaken.

Only reason United fans are getting annoyed is because Liverpool are playing the 'poor us, we're the victims in all this' shi* they usually come out with and claiming our player is nothing short of a liar.

Anyways, you continue with your one sentence replies and attempts to wind people up, its getting old at this stage. u

Irrelevant are you for ****ing real, if this was any other club would you think we would have reached this many pages, im not trying to wind people up, i just find it amazing the obsession there is with liverpool.

niallo27

cournioni wrote: »

Likewise we wouldn't like to follow your clubs example regarding what is right or wrong.

You mean like supporting someone who physically assaults a fan and make him out to be a hero, ya your lot set the standard alright.

thegreengoblin

niallo27 wrote: »

Your spot on there, most utd fans actually worry more about Liverpool fc that their own club. Fact as a great man once said.

That statement is almost as funny as 'King Kenny' wearing an oversized t-shirt in his pre-match interview last night.
I know quite a few Liverpool fans and while they don't want to be seen to be disloyal to their club (understandably so), they are also utterly embarrassed at the hysterical reaction to Suarez's ban. What are they going to do next...bring out a charity single to raise funds for Suarez's fine? You honestly wouldn't bet against it.
No club does the 'woe is us' thing better than Liverpool. But leave them to it, it's providing fantastic amusement for the rest of us.
As for Evra, I hope he sues them over that statement they released.

gerryo777

cournioni wrote: »

Likewise we wouldn't like to follow your clubs example regarding what is right or wrong.

Not much to be gained by two sets of supporters slagging each other off I suppose so I'll knock that on the head.
We all have our views on the Suarez situation so maybe the best thing would be to wait and see the full report on the incident and then if there is an appeal, see what the outcome of that will be.

Paparazzo

Not sure if it was posted before, here's football365s take on the Liverpool statement:

Some Dignity, Please

Liverpool FC were founded in 1892. They've been in existence for nearly 120 years. One would expect a club of such history and tradition to react to even the biggest setback with a degree of dignity, maturity and responsibility.


However, their statement in response to the Luis Suarez verdict read like it was written by a nine-year-old child whose ice cream has just been knocked out of their hand.


Let's take it point by point:

'We find it extraordinary that Luis can be found guilty on the word of Patrice Evra alone...'


Well, we'll stop you right there. Thanks to interviews given by the man himself and information very well leaked to the media by we don't know who (but can take a decent guess), Suarez admitted calling Evra 'something his team-mates at Manchester call him', so the use of the word was never in question.

'It is also our opinion that the accusation by this particular player was not credible - certainly no more credible than his prior unfounded accusations.'


Jesus, we thought this was just the domain of ill-informed idiots on the internet. For what is hopefully the final time, Evra has been caught up in racism rows twice before this incident. On neither of those occasions did Evra make the accusation.

'It is key to note that Patrice Evra himself in his written statement in this case said 'I don't think that Luis Suarez is racist'. The FA in their opening remarks accepted that Luis Suarez was not racist.'


We'll say this slowly - the FA did not charge Suarez with 'being a racist'. They charged him with using racist language. A man does not have to be 'a racist' to use racist language.

Luis himself is of a mixed race family background as his grandfather was black...He has played with black players and mixed with their families whilst with the Uruguay national side and was Captain at Ajax Amsterdam of a team with a proud multi-cultural profile, many of whom became good friends.'


Seriously? The 'some of my best friends' argument? And as some have already pointed out, claiming a man cannot be racist because his grandfather was black is a little like saying he cannot be misogynist because he had a grandmother.

'We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms. Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.'


Ah, the classic trick of trying to flip around the blame. Are you trying to defend your man or simply say the other guy was just as bad? Also, we're handing out credit for 'not lying about hearing something you didn't' now, are we?


Football365 has not taken a stand on this matter because we have no idea what actually happened and without all of the evidence, it's a far too complex issue to take lightly.


Liverpool are a fine football club, but please, have some dignity. It's hardly a surprise when an element of their support reacts in a certain manner when the club behaves in this way.

UnitedIrishman

niallo27 wrote: »

Irrelevant are you for ****ing real, if this was any other club would you think we would have reached this many pages, im not trying to wind people up, i just find it amazing the obsession there is with liverpool.

Your spot on there, it wouldn't. Because no other clubs fans would claim that the player in question is completely innocent, the opposition player is a liar (despite the aforementioned player admitting to saying something) and try and turn the situation 360 into a victims plea.

I've only ever really come into this thread to defend United and Evra.

niallo27

thegreengoblin wrote: »

That statement is almost as funny as 'King Kenny' wearing an oversized t-shirt in his pre-match interview last night.
I know quite a few Liverpool fans and while they don't want to be seen to be disloyal to their club (understandably so), they are also utterly embarrassed at the hysterical reaction to Suarez's ban. What are they going to do next...bring out a charity single to raise funds for Suarez's fine? You honestly wouldn't bet against it.
No club does the 'woe is us' thing better than Liverpool. But leave them to it, it's providing fantastic amusement for the rest of us.
As for Evra, I hope he sues them over that statement they released.

No one has answered my question though, would this thread be this big if it was any other club, would there be this as you call it "hysterical reaction" to club statement if it wasn't liverpool.

niallo27

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Your spot on there, it wouldn't. Because no other clubs fans would claim that the player in question is completely innocent, the opposition player is a liar (despite the aforementioned player admitting to saying something) and try and turn the situation 360 into a victims plea.

I've only ever really come into this thread to defend United and Evra.

This thread was 200 pages before the verdict even came out.

cournioni

niallo27 wrote: »

You mean like supporting someone who physically assaults a fan and make him out to be a hero, ya your lot set the standard alright.

Like I said, Cantona did his time. Neither Manchester United nor Cantona tried to claim any innocence for what he done. Cantona is an honest man and was an honest player, and that should be adored.

That is what sets him apart from the cowardly racism, biting, diving, and cheating that Suarez is now known for. Liverpool also have a history of not taking responsibility for their actions and have the cheek to claim innocence and victimisation in some of those cases (and yes, that has been discussed on many occasions before and I am not getting into it again).

Lumbo

cournioni wrote: »

That is what sets him apart from the cowardly racism, biting, diving, and cheating that Suarez is now known for. Liverpool also have a history of not taking responsibility for their actions and have the cheek to claim innocence and victimisation in some of those cases (and yes, that has been discussed on many occasions before and I am not getting into it again).

Take a bow son.

Will I Amnt

thegreengoblin wrote: »

No club does the 'woe is us' thing better than Liverpool.

That's where the "obsession" comes from Niallo.It's a persecution complex,the world and it's mother are out to get LFC.

And you're right if it was any other club this wouldn't have dragged on for so many pages,it's the blanket denial,refusal to accept that it's possible that he was on the wind up with whatever racial term he said that has dragged this out like this.

niallo27

cambo2008 wrote: »

That's where the "obsession" comes from Niallo.It's a persecution complex,the world and it's mother are out to get LFC.

And you're right if it was any other club this wouldn't have dragged on for so many pages,it's the blanket denial,refusal to accept that it's possible that he was on the wind up with whatever racial term he said that has dragged this out like this.

I never said that, but you must admit the world and its mother are fascinated with everything liverpool.

Kess73

And the thread just continues to stumble through more Liverpool FC vs Manchester United FC bile with some pretty ignorant and idiotic stuff coming from both sides over the past 24 or so hours.:rolleyes:

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

cambo2008 wrote: »

That's where the "obsession" comes from Niallo.It's a persecution complex,the world and it's mother are out to get LFC.

And you're right if it was any other club this wouldn't have dragged on for so many pages,it's the blanket denial,refusal to accept that it's possible that he was on the wind up with whatever racial term he said that has dragged this out like this.

I never said that, but you must admit the world and its mother are fascinated with everything liverpool.

I never said you did but that's the impression given off from the manager,players and fans.
And yea,it is fascinating in a perverse way.

JimsAlterEgo

Kess73 wrote: »

And the thread just continues to stumble through more Liverpool FC vs Manchester United FC bile with some pretty ignorant and idiotic stuff coming from both sides over the past 24 or so hours.:rolleyes:

Some of it prompted by the actions of the club. Are some pool fans nor embarassed a little by the stance?

Paparazzo

The Liverpool tee shirts were just pathetic. Liverpool are really making fools of themselves.
As for suarez, remember Ghana? Karma is a bitch! Delighted for him

thegreengoblin

niallo27 wrote: »

I never said that, but you must admit the world and its mother are fascinated with everything liverpool.

If there is a fascination it's that there is no other club with a persecution complex that's anywhere near Liverpool's, you must admit that

efb

So much Und v Liverpool hate in this thread- its laughable.

parc

I gotta say, I try to remain objective in this whole debate. Maybe in South America the word he used is akin to saying "black fella" over here. Not derogatory etc.

But I gotta say, I'm delighted for him, he's a world-class asshole

super_furry

I think the last few pages have shown the agenda of most of the posters here. The captain of the England national team has been charged with racism and yet they're still only focused on Suarez.

There's no honest outcry over racism here, it's just an opportunity to have a dig at Liverpool. I'm done.

doc_17

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

No A sanction for peddling inaccuracies

That is nonsense...pure rubbish. Listening to the Man U fans critising Liverpool fans on here for disagreeing with the FA is stomach churning. After the amount of FA charges they have had in recent years and the total lack of respect shown by their players and manager to the FA they are really just talking boll**ks

Dub13

http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/2292/editorials/2011/12/22/2813979/whats-in-a-word-the-furore-over-luis-suarezs-racism-ban

What's In A Word? The Furore Over Luis Suarez's Racism Ban Betrays A Lack Of Cultural Understanding In The English Premier League's Multi-National Playground

The hysteria that has erupted over the star's suspension both in England and in Uruguay shames the FA and its attempts to integrate players from all corners of the globe

It was a situation the likes of which one experiences every day in the Argentine capital of Buenos Aires. Lining up behind an attractive, olive-skinned girl in her mid-20s in a store, in the middle of a December heatwave which pushed the mercury towards 37°C and waiting patiently as the stranger bought a box of Marlboro cigarettes. The clerk passed back her change with a smile, and the salutation "Gracias, negra".

A completely innocuous, mundane interaction, but one that stuck in the mind due to the events that followed a matter of minutes later. On the same day, and at almost exactly the same time as that exchange, Uruguayan forward Luis Suarez was receiving an eight match ban for saying the same word to Patrice Evra on the other side of the world in England.

It is not the purpose of this article to assign blame, to condone or crucify Suarez or to call Evra's sterling reputation as a footballer into disrepute. The pair are both professionals at the very top of their chosen career, so to descend into simple conclusions - as the temptation has been for many in the sport and in the media - is lazy and poor journalism. But to every story there is two sides, and in South America and especially Luis' home nation the reaction has been of utter disbelief.

"Senseless", was Sebastian Abreu's word to describe the lengthy suspension, while Uruguay captain Diego Lugano went even further in calling it a "grave error", and accusing Evra of breaking football's unwritten code of what happens on the pitch, stays on the pitch. The Uruguayan government even commented in favour of their striker, but perhaps one of the most considered arguments was provided by Lazio's Alvaro Gonzalez.

"In Uruguay we use terms that can be misinterpreted and all of us who know Luis know that he wouldn't have made the comment as a defamatory remark," he said in quotes published by Ovacion.

"You can't call a Uruguayan racist because of that ... perhaps we are paying the price for going to live in different cultures."

The word in question, negro, understandably appears ugly and bigoted when laid down on paper in English. As demonstrated by the anecdote at the start of this article, however, in Uruguay as in Argentina and much of Latin America it is considered a neutral, even familiar term. Friends, sons, daughters, parents are addressed with the phrase, or its diminutive negrito/a, whether they are from African, mixed-race or even European descent with blue hair and blonde eyes.

It is not the language of politicians or diplomats, admittedly, indeed little one hears inside the lines of a football pitch would be suitable in the debating chamber of the UN. But it is the product of a society and continent in which the process of nation and population-building has made traditional labels almost superfluous.

Some four per cent of the country's three million population claim African descent, a proportion double that of the United Kingdom and not including those of mixed heritage, believed to number around 10 per cent. This group have been settled and integrated in Uruguayan society up to 400 years, and have left an indelible imprint on the nation's culture, music and language. Suarez himself has an Afro-Uruguayan grandfather, and he is carrying on a grand tradition of multiculturalism in the Celeste football team.

Uruguay withstood strong protest to field black players in the 1916 Copa America, a full 63 years before Viv Anderson took the pitch to become England's first black international. The history of the country's football success is littered with great players of African or mixed descent; and many, such as 1950 captain Obdulio Varela, are still remembered fondly as 'El Negro'.

In this context, then, a misunderstanding of intent and a linguistic confusion appears to be the culprit, one for which Luis Suarez has paid for heavily. Is he really expected to know that the Spanish word he has grown up with as neutral and even affectionate his whole life was co-opted by British and American slavers in the 18th century as a synonym for African people, and used frequently until becoming taboo in the 1960s civil rights struggle? It is the content of a university thesis, not an assumption for a 24-year-old footballer adapting to a new country and culture.

"We are indignant about the appearance of this decision ... it is absolutely disproportionate" - The Uruguay government condemns the FA

That is not to paint Uruguay or Argentina as colour-blind paradises, far from it. Racism and racist comments are no rarer than anywhere else in the world, although more often directed towards nationalities rather than ethnicities. The fact that in Buenos Aires the term Boliviano or Paraguayo when referring to immigrants from that country can be much more pejorative than the word negro is a cultural anomaly hard to interpret for someone unfamiliar with the culture, and migrants from South America are no strangers to similar discrimination elsewhere.

It has been widely reported, for example, that Evra called Suarez a "South American" or "Sudaca" before receiving his perceived insult, and the latter especially is horribly demeaning for those from the continent who have chosen to pursue their lives in Europe. The South American, however, left things on the field, most likely taking the angry exchange as part and parcel of making his living in a testosterone-fuelled atmosphere where tempers often fray.

It is equally unfair to say that Evra, perhaps not versed in the history and etymology of the word in its Spanish, Latin-American context, was wrong to take offence at Suarez's language. There is no place for racial insults, however intended, in modern football with the strides it has taken in extracting this cancer in the last 25 years.

But, as Tim Vickery mentioned in an excellent article on the same subject before the ruling, the FA had a perfect chance to demonstrate their ability to adapt to the demands of modern football. Taking Suarez in front of the board, explaining that such language can be construed in negative ways in England and handing out a light warning would have sent the player a clear message while not castigating him for his linguistic faux pas.

In throwing the book at the Uruguayan, however, the ruling body has demonstrated an ignorance and clumsiness when faced with cultural sensitivities which has made it the object of outrage in one of the world's most inclusive football nations.

Suarez's ban may be another step on the road to the English Premier League's enlightenment when it comes to racial controversies, but it also proves that when faced with a question of cultural understanding and compromise in a globalised football world, their attitude remains indisputably in the stone age.
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