"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

AlekSmart · 19-12-2011 12:03pm

markpb wrote: »

Either the drivers misheard during their training or there's some serious Chinese whispers going on at one of the depots - it's a completely nonsensical idea.

I'm afraid it's some form of nonsensical stuff that's taken legs and run off.

The REAL issue here is that the Wayfarer as installed in Dublin Bus vehicles is unfit-for-purpose,as the card WILL slide off the inclined surface of the reading pad.

This could well be a difficult one to solve,as simply flattening the machine,which is mounted on an inclined base to allow a clear view of the Drivers screen,will then impact upon the Drivers functionality.

It is becoming somewhat clear that Leap was nowhere near ready for introduction,soft or not.

We now know that just about half of the quoted 400 Ticket Agents are currently able to handle the product,now we find a fundamental flaw with the on-board interface .....crikey 12 years and (at latest figures) €55 Million has not produced much in the way of functionality.

I am livid at just how this Integrated Ticketing Implementation Group have,it sems,gotten clean away with taking a perfectly desireable,positive,functional new (to us) technology and reduced it to something around 50% functionality.

The initial roll-out period is when these things are made or broken,and Leap is now very much struggling to establish itself.

No doubt the 15% Cash Fare increase will spur some more individuals into a purchase,but it will be a grudging,reluctant and enforced decision rather than somebody transferring over as they see the clear positive elemental attractions of Contactless Card Travel Integration.

It defies all logic In my opinion,not to have issued free-of-charge a blank Leap Card to every household in the GDA and to have had ALL agents up and running from day 1.

Instead we now have Chinese Whispers on every side of the equation and that makes for a shambolic start-up.

It is,IMO,an absolute disgrace and merits some high-profile resignations,if not a study of how the Chinese approach such malfeasance !

The first element in reclaiming the high-ground again IMO,should be the IMmediate Introduction of a Flat Fare on Dublin Bus.

The interaction with the Busdriver is proving slow,confusing and so retrograde it will simply scare away any people willing to try the New Improved Network Direct Services for the first time.

The Leap card HAD the functioality to speed things up greatly at the very time that Network Direct's "Improvements" have imposed great delays on formerly effective routes....:o

Somebody,anybody in authority needs to quickly and firmly get a grip on this project before it goes down in flames.

markpb · 19-12-2011 12:15pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am livid at just how this Integrated Ticketing Implementation Group have,it sems,gotten clean away with taking a perfectly desireable,positive,functional new (to us) technology and reduced it to something around 50% functionality.

The Leap card was never, ever, ever intended to do anything with DB fares or integrated ticketing. The card was designed from the start to carry cash and other tickets - nothing more. The card has delivered exactly what little that the various governments involved wanted from it.

It is beyond their comprehension that anything more was required because anything more would require a proper understanding of how mass transit is organised, financed and run. Telling FF that you can do integrated tickets with a disposable magstripe (in Rome) or a simple piece of paper and a hole punch (in LA) was a waste of time because they dealt in showman politics. Contactless smartcards were the way forward because they were fancier.

What we have is what politicians asked for - a card that makes it slightly easier for people to get around DBs lack of prepaid tickets for short and medium hop trips and gets rid of everyones pet hate - the change receipt.

robd · 19-12-2011 12:26pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm afraid it's some form of nonsensical stuff that's taken legs and run off.

The REAL issue here is that the Wayfarer as installed in Dublin Bus vehicles is unfit-for-purpose,as the card WILL slide off the inclined surface of the reading pad.

This could well be a difficult one to solve,as simply flattening the machine,which is mounted on an inclined base to allow a clear view of the Drivers screen,will then impact upon the Drivers functionality.

I don't think it's as difficult to solve as you think. The problem is the sticker they put on the machine is slippy. Replace with a rubberized surface sticker and it would improve but of course maybe the cards won't read then. Certainly the stickers make it worse not better so remove them.

As you and so many others identified the Dublin Bus solution is a complete bodge job. Should be a flat fare end of story. January fare increase are a lost opportunity.

Also from everything I've read Leap Card was nowhere near ready for go live. The bus and train element were shuffed out for political point scoring reasons.

SandyfordGuy · 19-12-2011 12:31pm

Am I the only person who the leap card has made life much easier for? My commute is far easier now than it was before the introduction of it. I use all three modes of transport on an intermittent basis and not always the same journey. For me the money and time it saves me is invaluable.

Sure it's not perfect, but I think people are being a little too harsh

LXFlyer · 19-12-2011 12:50pm

markpb wrote: »

The Leap card was never, ever, ever intended to do anything with DB fares or integrated ticketing. The card was designed from the start to carry cash and other tickets - nothing more. The card has delivered exactly what little that the various governments involved wanted from it.

It is beyond their comprehension that anything more was required because anything more would require a proper understanding of how mass transit is organised, financed and run. Telling FF that you can do integrated tickets with a disposable magstripe (in Rome) or a simple piece of paper and a hole punch (in LA) was a waste of time because they dealt in showman politics. Contactless smartcards were the way forward because they were fancier.

What we have is what politicians asked for - a card that makes it slightly easier for people to get around DBs lack of prepaid tickets for short and medium hop trips and gets rid of everyones pet hate - the change receipt.

That's not strictly true as it is planned for capping and rebates be introduced in 2012.

However, you are correct that it has no impact on the actual fare structures each operator has.

That boils down to the way transport in Dublin is funded and farebox revenue retained and how it is operator based rather than centralised.

markpb · 19-12-2011 12:54pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Am I the only person who the leap card has made life much easier for?

I think most people are just disappointed that, given the amount of time and money invested, the card is good but not great. If the government(s) had sorted out the fare and funding problems first, the card could have been simpler, delivered faster and more attractive.

robd · 19-12-2011 1:18pm

markpb wrote: »

I think most people are just disappointed that, given the amount of time and money invested, the card is good but not great. If the government(s) had sorted out the fare and funding problems first, the card could have been simpler, delivered faster and more attractive.

100% in agreement with this point of view. In reality this is a thread for critiquing the leapcard, with the hope that comments will be picked up and the service improved.

steve-o · 19-12-2011 1:58pm

markpb wrote: »

I think most people are just disappointed that, given the amount of time and money invested, the card is good but not great. If the government(s) had sorted out the fare and funding problems first, the card could have been simpler, delivered faster and more attractive.

Apologies, but that seems perfect to re-use for any infrastructure project. I want to steal it and apply it in 6 or 7 years time to Luas BXD:

steve-o in the future wrote:

I think most people are just disappointed that, given the amount of time and money invested, Luas BXD is good but not great. If the government(s) had sorted out the bus rerouting and bus stop relocation problems at the design stage, the line could have been simpler, delivered faster and more attractive.

LXFlyer · 19-12-2011 2:08pm

markpb wrote: »

I think most people are just disappointed that, given the amount of time and money invested, the card is good but not great. If the government(s) had sorted out the fare and funding problems first, the card could have been simpler, delivered faster and more attractive.

I suspect they were never on the table - otherwise a centralised farebox would have been used.

markpb · 19-12-2011 2:18pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I suspect they were never on the table - otherwise a centralised farebox would have been used.

I firmly believe it never was - there's only one place I can find reference to integrated fares as opposed to integrated tickets - Mary O'Rourke in 1999

For the travelling public it makes sense to have a system in place where you can buy just one ticket which will cover all travel in the Dublin area, be it on bus, rail, DART or light rail.

"One ticket" is the clue here - even today with Leap you cannot do. You can buy many tickets with one card but not one ticket for many buses or many modes of transport. Unfortunately, in the same speech she later said:

Such smart card technology, if it proves feasible, would also encourage a greater use of prepaid ticketing rather than cash payments.

This is what was delivered.

LXFlyer · 19-12-2011 2:22pm

Well that's not quite true - next year the card will allow multi-mode travel with a rebate, but the underlying fare structure is not changing.

There are already multi-mode prepaid tickets in existence, just not single journey tickets.

AlekSmart · 19-12-2011 2:51pm

markpb wrote: »

The Leap card was never, ever, ever intended to do anything with DB fares or integrated ticketing. The card was designed from the start to carry cash and other tickets - nothing more. The card has delivered exactly what little that the various governments involved wanted from it.

It is beyond their comprehension that anything more was required because anything more would require a proper understanding of how mass transit is organised, financed and run. Telling FF that you can do integrated tickets with a disposable magstripe (in Rome) or a simple piece of paper and a hole punch (in LA) was a waste of time because they dealt in showman politics. Contactless smartcards were the way forward because they were fancier.

What we have is what politicians asked for - a card that makes it slightly easier for people to get around DBs lack of prepaid tickets for short and medium hop trips and gets rid of everyones pet hate - the change receipt.

Spot-on Markpb.

However,I have to give Dublin Bus credit for attempting,over a long period to convince the Department of Transport about new approaches to it's financing...all unsuccessful.

Dublin Bus was,and in many ways still is well up with modern ticketing developments but remains tethered to Political will in relation to changing the base-line.

It is my contention that few if any of the principals involved with the Integrated Ticketing Implementation Group (the clue is in the name) actually had much of a clue about the scope of their brief...and what we now see on the streets is a direct result of this "Horse designed by a Committee" approach.

LeapCard's main problem now is that it's regarded as yet another entity on the scene,with only tenuous connections to any of the Operators...what a mess. :rolleyes:

Mr Simpson · 19-12-2011 3:32pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Maybe they're just going over 13 stages?

Sorry, I should have said, the maximum fare from where I live is 1.65

dublinman1990 · 19-12-2011 5:40pm

For the travelling public it makes sense to have a system in place where you can buy just one ticket which will cover all travel in the Dublin area, be it on bus, rail, DART or light rail.

I went for a few daytrips to London in 2004, My mum and I were offered an all day travelcard by a stationmaster in Greenwich. The cost of the card at the time was only £1 and you were able to travel around on all modes of transport including the train, bus, the tube and DLR (Docklands Light Railway).

I wonder is that still on the oyster card?:)

Would you agree, that would be great to have that system on the leap card?;)

cson · 19-12-2011 6:13pm

It bemuses me as to how such a dick up could be made of such a system. It's not revolutionary or innovative, it's a simple e-purse ffs. I mean a cursory glance would indicate to the ordinary man that a simple copy and paste of the TfL system would have saved a lot of that €50m+ set up costs.

markpb · 19-12-2011 6:22pm

cson wrote: »

I mean a cursory glance would indicate to the ordinary man that a simple copy and paste of the TfL system would have saved a lot of that €50m+ set up costs.

An ordinary man would be very, very wrong in that case. London is completely different to Dublin, to think they're the same is a fallacy. London has a single project owner collecting all the cash (physical and virtual) that is paid for buses, trams and trains. Operators are paid a fixed rate for operating those services but receive none of the cash paid on board. London operates a simple flat fare for buses and single zone system across all trams and trains.

Dublin has Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and RPA before you list Bus Eireann and the private operators. Each of them operates independently, each of them is entitled to the cash paid by their passengers, each of them has their own zone/stage system, each of them has their own fares. In Dublin, the Leap fares are collected by the TVM, online and retail network, sent to the NTA clearing house and then (partly) remitted to whichever operator is entitled to it. This doesn't happen in London because of their central farebox system.

This is why people keep saying that the fare system should have been simplified before undertaking ITS/Leap. If it had been done (exactly), then there's a chance that Oyster could have been copied. Of course, TfL *own* Oyster so we'd have to pay them royalties for the system on top of the hardware and infrastructure costs. And then there's the fact that whatever retail network sell Oyster topup in London probably doesn't exist in Dublin so someone would need to be paid to do that here too. And lastly:

The £100 million contract was signed in 1998 and was due to run for a term of 17 years until 2015 at a total cost of £1.1 billion.

Ordinary men are entitled to their opinion but it would help if even a tiny was based on fact.

BenShermin · 19-12-2011 6:57pm

While we're making comparisions with Dublin and London transport, I think it's well worth noting how completely different the bus services are in either city.

The flat fare works for London Buses because they are not the main form of transport and they are not generally used for long journeys. Most bus journeys in London are only taken in order to travel to the nearest train or tube station for a faster mode of transport to complete the overall journey.

Completely different in Dublin where long journeys like bus 66 Maynooth to City Centre and bus 145 Bray to City Centre are very common even though these areas are connected to the city centre by rail. In London these routes simply don't and will never exist.

Given Dublin Buses long routes do people here honestly think it's fair that somebody travelling from Chapelizod to Parkgate Street should pay the same fare on the 66 as the person sitting beside them that's travelling from Maynooth to Merrion Square??

In London such a senario wouldn't come into play as somebody from the equivalent of Maynooth would be paying a zonal based fare on the tube/train to get to the city and the Chapelizod user would be paying the cheaper flat bus fare, now that's a fair system imo.

Scrap the stage system by all means, but I don't think Dublin Bus could ever have a flat fare system that will work for customers or the company itself unless Dublin Bus becomes a feeder service for rail/Luas, and looking at 145 -v- DART and 33X -v- Northern Commuter, is that ever going to realistically happen??

bk · 19-12-2011 7:36pm

markpb wrote: »

An ordinary man would be very, very wrong in that case. London is completely different to Dublin, to think they're the same is a fallacy. London has a single project owner collecting all the cash (physical and virtual) that is paid for buses, trams and trains. Operators are paid a fixed rate for operating those services but receive none of the cash paid on board. London operates a simple flat fare for buses and single zone system across all trams and trains.

Sounds like the ideal set up.

And the set up in Dublin is almost the same. You have Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail all owned and operated by CIE a semi state company.

Yes there are all run independently, but there is absolutely no reason why the government couldn't change the set up to match Londons. After all it bloody well owns them all. So lets not continue with the farcical excuses for CIE ineptitude.

19-12-2011 9:10pm

I have a Leap card but could only see myself using it in cases where I'd be using a combination of bus, Luas and/or DART. But in a case where I'm heading into the city centre for a short period or using two or more buses to get where I'm going then it's still a Travel 90 all the way.

KenHy · 19-12-2011 11:36pm

markpb wrote: »

An ordinary man would be very, very wrong in that case. London is completely different to Dublin, to think they're the same is a fallacy.....
Ordinary men are entitled to their opinion but it would help if even a tiny was based on fact.

Really? Dublin has buses, trains and trams that transport people around a city, London has buses, trains and trams that transport people around a city.

I fail to see how we shouldn't be able to replicate the success they have managed to create 10 years ago just because of some bureaucracy. The Ordinary man can see that.

markpb · 19-12-2011 11:41pm

KenHy wrote: »

I fail to see how we shouldn't be able to replicate the success they have managed to create 10 years ago just because of some bureaucracy. The Ordinary man can see that.

That's exactly my point. If you want to copy the system that London has, you need to sort out the bureaucracy first. But the FF government didn't ask the ITS taskforce to do that, they asked them to create a card that handles all the crud we have right now without any change.

What London has that Dublin doesn't, is a strong (local) government that is committed to good public transport and will make changes to get to that goal.

Posy · 20-12-2011 12:52am

Had a driver this evening that took one look at my Leap card and said 'Ah, I don't know anything about them cards, just go ahead there.'
Great training the drivers seem to have got- most seem pretty confused/horrified when I produce a Leap card!

dublinman1990 · 20-12-2011 1:01am

I have a mixed view on London's Transport, back then. When I was buying that card in Greenwich, it was a normal paper ticket, not plastic.

I think if it was integrated into the oyster card, it would cost a lot more money, because it's due to higher population density and tourism numbers. We're lucky not to have the costs like London.

I understand that in 1998 the contract for National Rail alone, excluding everything else costed £100million.

That is at €119.8 million looking at today's exchange rate.

It adds up that the Leap Card is better value for the Irish Taxpayer's.

dublinman1990 · 20-12-2011 1:09am

Posy wrote: »

Had a driver this evening that took one look at my Leap card and said 'Ah, I don't know anything about them cards, just go ahead there.'
Great training the drivers seem to have got- most seem pretty confused/horrified when I produce a Leap card!

Well, that's really something out of this ''Exstensive Training'' they were meant to get. Do you think the same thing would happen on Dart/Commuter. I gather that only fate will tell us probably in the near future.

bk · 20-12-2011 1:20am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

It adds up that the Leap Card is better value for the Irish Taxpayer's.

But you must remember Oyster was one of the first such cards of it's type and most of the technology for it had to be developed from scratch.

Such systems are now very common and Leap uses mostly off the shelf technology. Also RFID cards and validating machines have become much, much cheaper then they were when Oyster launched.

bk · 20-12-2011 1:33am

Sigh http://leapcard.ie doesn't work.

Or www.leapcard.com (which the NTA also own).

Why do all the Irish Public transport sites seem to use the same inept System Admins. Being able to drop the www is standard practice for most sites these days and takes about 5 minutes to set up.

Also the Google Language Translate thing is weird, offering different languages on different pages, sometimes offering unusual language choices, while sometimes not offering Irish!!

Posy · 20-12-2011 1:42am

I still fail to see why they couldn't have used a 'scan on-scan off' system for Dublin bus. Telling the driver where you want to go makes having a card pretty pointless.
Plus, I have only been using my card for a few days, but the driver always seems flustered, as am I, using the card. I feel embarrassed using it, so far, to be honest.
I'd give up completely only for I want to used to the 'Leap' when they bring the new higher cash fares into operation.

AlekSmart · 20-12-2011 1:53am

Posy wrote: »

I still fail to see why they couldn't have used a 'scan on-scan off' system for Dublin bus. Telling the driver where you want to go makes having a card pretty pointless.
Plus, I have only been using my card for a few days, but the driver always seems flustered, as am I, using the card. I feel embarrassed using it, so far, to be honest.
I'd give up completely only for I want to used to the 'Leap' when they bring the new higher cash fares into operation.

Stick with it Posy,cos come Jan 1 you'll be quids-in.

I'm quite concerned that the majority of commuters will stick with cash.

I would have targeted Leap directly at the group which present most difficulty for the operator and the rest of the customer base....The Itinerant User,who may use the bus sporadically or on a whim,and who will happily spend as long as it takes rooting and scrabbling for coins whilst jibbering about the weather etc etc...

The lack of a concentrated marketing effort is worying to say the least and is bound to result in much wailing and gnashing of teef come 2012.

I'd also be concerned that,if leap becomes popular,the built-in delay before the relevant screen defaults will make Leaping a somewhat longer option than rooting.....Hard to credit but there ye go... :rolleyes:

dublinman1990 · 20-12-2011 1:56am

bk wrote: »

Sigh http://leapcard.ie doesn't work.

Or www.leapcard.com (which the NTA also own).

Why do all the Irish Public transport sites seem to use the same inept System Admins. Being able to drop the www is standard practice for most sites these days and takes about 5 minutes to set up.

Also the Google Language Translate thing is weird, offering different languages on different pages, sometimes offering unusual language choices, while sometimes not offering Irish!!

If you are using google chrome it is a waste of time, still type or click www.leapcard.ie. Still no problems when I typed that in. Are you using Safari, IE9 or Firefox?

20-12-2011 1:59am

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'd also be concerned that,if leap becomes popular,the built-in delay before the relevant screen defaults will make Leaping a somewhat longer option than rooting.....Hard to credit but there ye go... :rolleyes:

That's what I was thinking today, it didn't seem any faster than popping in coins so it will hardly help boarding times. It's still much faster to use a Travel 90 (or similar) card.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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