"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Baron de Robeck

Well so much for reliability, the Leap card "technology" has caused most (maybe all?) card readers to crash this morning. When our driver called control to inform them of his dead card reader he was told it was happening across the city!!

Lots of free journeys today..........

markpb

Baron de Robeck wrote: »

Well so much for reliability, the Leap card "technology" has caused most (maybe all?) card readers to crash this morning. When our driver called control to inform them of his dead card reader he was told it was happening across the city!!

Sounds like they applied an update last night - it's be working fine for weeks.

SandyfordGuy

No problem on Bus and Train this morning for me.

schemingbohemia

No problem for me either on the bus or train.

Baron de Robeck

It was a Conyngham Road bus I was on and several more were affected, may be confined to just the one garage. A colleague had the same issue on the 13 but she wouldn't know what depot the bus was from.

robd

Baron de Robeck wrote: »

It was a Conyngham Road bus I was on and several more were affected, may be confined to just the one garage. A colleague had the same issue on the 13 but she wouldn't know what depot the bus was from.

Had similar problem yesterday on Clontarf Buses which is probably related. Free travel in the morning, was sorted by afternoon.

angel01

Baron de Robeck wrote: »

Well so much for reliability, the Leap card "technology" has caused most (maybe all?) card readers to crash this morning. When our driver called control to inform them of his dead card reader he was told it was happening across the city!!

Lots of free journeys today..........

Same on 2 buses that I was on this morning...

SilverLiningOK

Just saw this thread, after posting elsewhere -

Local Spar has the Leap signs up on door but no cards yet. This roll out seems flawed. Who is supposed to be doing it ? They should have got someone in from the euro changeover. We even got the coins in advance to get used to them and notes were available from day one.

Not a good start. It is not going to encourage people to use them if they can't get them. I am on the northside, is the rest of the city any better ?

holidaysong

Used it on the DART from Tara Street to Clontarf Road this morning and I'm not really sure how much I've been charged?

When I tagged in at Tara it said -4.30 (which I guess is the maximum fare that they charge you if you don't then tag off somewhere) but when I tagged off at Clontarf it said -2.90 (which is probably the return fare). But what If I don't return on the DART this afternoon, will I get that return part refunded onto my card?

holidaysong

SilverLiningOK wrote: »

Just saw this thread, after posting elsewhere -

Local Spar has the Leap signs up on door but no cards yet. This roll out seems flawed. Who is supposed to be doing it ? They should have got someone in from the euro changeover. We even got the coins in advance to get used to them and notes were available from day one.

Not a good start. It is not going to encourage people to use them if they can't get them. I am on the northside, is the rest of the city any better ?

I tried four newsagents on Grafton Street yesterday before I got one. Eventually got one in Spar at the bottom of Grafton Street, just across from TCD.

robd

holidaysong wrote: »

Used it on the DART from Tara Street to Clontarf Road this morning and I'm not really sure how much I've been charged?

When I tagged in at Tara it said -4.30 (which I guess is the maximum fare that they charge you if you don't then tag off somewhere) but when I tagged off at Clontarf it said -2.90 (which is probably the return fare). But what If I don't return on the DART this afternoon, will I get that return part refunded onto my card?

You can register your card on leapcard.ie and it will show you exact details.

The card charges you maximum fare (4.30) when you tag-on and the credits you back when you tag off (2.90 in this case). So you were charged a total of 1.40, which is correct as per http://www.irishrail.ie/your_ticket/fares_enquiries.asp

There's no return journey, each is a discounted leap card single so it matters not whether you return or not. As a comparison, fare would be 1.70 cash each way or 2.90 cash return.

robd

SilverLiningOK wrote: »

Just saw this thread, after posting elsewhere -

Local Spar has the Leap signs up on door but no cards yet. This roll out seems flawed. Who is supposed to be doing it ? They should have got someone in from the euro changeover. We even got the coins in advance to get used to them and notes were available from day one.

Not a good start. It is not going to encourage people to use them if they can't get them. I am on the northside, is the rest of the city any better ?

This is coming up so much that I think it needs a new thread. I already posted a list of friendly leapcard agents a few pages back but it got lost in the replies.

So here it is:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75978666

SilverLiningOK

robd wrote: »

This is coming up so much that I think it needs a new thread. I already posted a list of friendly leapcard agents a few pages back but it got lost in the replies.

So here it is:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75978666

Good idea. Thanks.

BenShermin

Well I was double charged today, got an annulment but the whole transaction delayed the bus by about a minute. Driver apologised and said that it was the first leap card fare he processed. Felt sorry for the driver tbh, this whole second ticket idea is nonsense, an Irish solution to a problem that never really exsisted in the first place:rolleyes:!


I don't feel a bit confident using the card as a result of today to be honest, what if the next driver I meet can't process the annulment? There's no comeback as the terms and conditions state clearly that the only way to get an annulment is at the time of the transaction.

markpb

BenShermin wrote: »

Well I was double charged today, got an annulment but the whole transaction delayed the bus by about a minute. Driver apologised and said that it was the first leap card fare he processed. Felt sorry for the driver tbh, this whole second ticket idea is nonsense, an Irish solution to a problem that never really exsisted in the first place:rolleyes:!

I think it's a very handy idea but, since it complicates things, I would have preferred if they rolled it out later on.

robd

markpb wrote: »

I think it's a very handy idea but, since it complicates things, I would have preferred if they rolled it out later on.

It's a handy idea in small amount of circumstances.

In reality it's one of those law of unintended consequences type scenarios.

It's the cause of most of the errors reported on Dublin Bus. It should be removed as a feature immediately inline with the other 2 operators policies of one card one traveller.

Flukey

Geuze wrote: »

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/

The Dutch smart-card system seems to involve readers when exiting the bus.

So it seems you tag-on and tag-off on the bus.

The fare is a fixed 79c per trip + a distance fee depending per km where you live.

Key point: the 79c is charged once, so if you switch to a different bus / tram during the same trip you are not charged the 79c again.

The Leap system doesn't allow that yet, but it will eventually (I think).

If the Dutch can do it then why can't Dublin Bus? I know, silly question.:rolleyes: It would be good to have a tag on/off system on the buses. It would be nice to have the ability to switch buses too. That is one of the great things about the unlimited tickets, being able to hop off a bus if you see a better one coming behind. The current Leap system can't cater for that. So we have a long way to go.

markpb

Flukey wrote: »

If the Dutch can do it then why can't Dublin Bus?

City buses in Amsterdam have at least two doors.

robd

markpb wrote: »

City buses in Amsterdam have at least two doors.

So did Dublin Bus buses when they started implementing Integrated Ticketing around 2000.

Be honest. The removal of the 2nd door and the pay at driver version of integrated ticketing is all related to Dublin Bus managements paranoia about fare evasion.

This was there solution rather than more diligent ticket inspecting. Haven't seen one of those guys in donkeys years.

markpb

robd wrote: »

So did Dublin Bus buses when they started implementing Integrated Ticketing around 2000.

Be honest. The removal of the 2nd door and the pay at driver version of integrated ticketing is all related to Dublin Bus managements paranoia about fare evasion.

This was there solution rather than more diligent ticket inspecting. Haven't seen one of those guys in donkeys years.

I agree totally with you on all those points - I was just explaining why tag on/tag off wouldn't work well in Dublin right now.

LXFlyer

robd wrote: »

So did Dublin Bus buses when they started implementing Integrated Ticketing around 2000.

Be honest. The removal of the 2nd door and the pay at driver version of integrated ticketing is all related to Dublin Bus managements paranoia about fare evasion.

This was there solution rather than more diligent ticket inspecting. Haven't seen one of those guys in donkeys years.

It was actually more to do with the removal of seating caused by the inclusion of the wheelchair space on the new low floor buses at the time (ref several posts from Alek Smart here) - retaining the second door would mean losing even more seats.

loyatemu

but their next batch of buses may have 2 doors again (as reported on another thread here) - seems they can't make up their mind on this.

markpb

loyatemu wrote: »

but their next batch of buses may have 2 doors again (as reported on another thread here) - seems they can't make up their mind on this.

Yeah they can. DB think they're operating a suburban bus service where one door is fine. NTA know that they should be operating a city bus service where at least two doors are required so NTA *told* DB what type of bus to order.

SandyfordGuy

By the way, just in case you were not aware, LEAP also has the functionality to return travel credit if you decide not to proceed with your journey.

I yesterday walked through the gates at a DART station then realised I had to go back, tagged off at the same station and it refunded me the 4.30 default fare.

The entry on Leapcard.ie reads:
Travel Credit Reversed

goingnowhere

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

By the way, just in case you were not aware, LEAP also has the functionality to return travel credit if you decide not to proceed with your journey.

I yesterday walked through the gates at a DART station then realised I had to go back, tagged off at the same station and it refunded me the 4.30 default fare.

The entry on Leapcard.ie reads:
Travel Credit Reversed

Irish Rail has always supported the ability to abandon a journey, Luas does not

SandyfordGuy

Pretty sensible really - there are obvious fare evasion issues with allowing it on LUAS.

monument

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Pretty sensible really - there are obvious fare evasion issues with allowing it on LUAS.

Not really.

Luas should allow the full amount to be returned if you tag off at the same stop within say 2-4mins. There is no stops you can get to tag on, go to another stop, do anything worth you're while (say buy something in a shop), and then return to the first stop within that time frame and tag off.

The idea that somebody tagging on and then off at the same stop is going to do so for fare evasion is nonsence -- they have gained nothing more than if they had never tagged on. There's no noticeable difference.

SandyfordGuy

But where do you set the limit? if you have 2-4 minutes you will have people moaning that they waited 10 minutes and they cannot get a refund during a long gap of trams because of service disruption. Also how many people are going to tag on and off within that time? People who tag on tag off at the same station will do so because of service disruption etc, and generally they won't do that within 5 minutes, they'll wait around 10-15 in most cases.

15 minutes would be enough to allow fare evasion to be committed when you think of how frequent the lines are. Also you would then get the question of many people assuming that they will always get the credit back after they tag off at the same station, and wondering why they get it some time and not others, thus causing complaints as nobody quite understands the system because lets face it, the average user is not going to read this board.

Same with the whole idea of paying for a companion on Dublin Bus, all doing it would do is cause confusion. It needs to be kept as simple as possible.

The idea that somebody tagging on and then off at the same stop is going to do so for fare evasion is nonsence -- they have gained nothing more than if they had never tagged on. There's no noticeable difference.

Two words - Return Journey·

SilverLiningOK

hmmm wrote: »

It's not good UI to expect the LEAP card user to realise that after they buy credit online they have to activate it. You can roll your eyes up to heaven and ask "well do you think that every bus has an Internet connection", to which the majority of the public will probably say "I guess".

There's an education deficit there that should be addressed or my bus will be stuck for hours while the driver explains to people who "bought credit online last night" that there is nothing on their card.

I also hadn't realised credit can take 48 hours to be applied. For goodness sake why?

This time lag of upto 48 hours is so archaic. What sort of payment system have they set up ? This will piss off lots of people, not least the bus drivers who will be told that "I bought some credit last night". Unfortunately Irish people usually can't operate at this level of preparedness. One has to know upto 48 hours in advance that one needs credit, otherwise one has to go to a shop to buy credit.

Surely there should be some advantage of buying something online. Being quicker to do a cash transaction in a shop is nuts. When will you even know when the credit is available for loading ? If people had to do this with mobile phone credit they would be driven demented.

monument

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

But where do you set the limit? if you have 2-4 minutes you will have people moaning that they waited 10 minutes and they cannot get a refund during a long gap of trams because of service disruption. Also how many people are going to tag on and off within that time? People who tag on tag off at the same station will do so because of service disruption etc, and generally they won't do that within 5 minutes, they'll wait around 10-15 in most cases.

15 minutes would be enough to allow fare evasion to be committed when you think of how frequent the lines are. Also you would then get the question of many people assuming that they will always get the credit back after they tag off at the same station, and wondering why they get it some time and not others, thus causing complaints as nobody quite understands the system because lets face it, the average user is not going to read this board.

Same with the whole idea of paying for a companion on Dublin Bus, all doing it would do is cause confusion. It needs to be kept as simple as possible.


Two words - Return Journey·

Return journey does not come into it when there's such a time limit.

What's exact is the harm in allowing 5mins?

I'm not thinking of service disruptions but anybody who tags on at the time of a service disruption is entitled to a refund anyway.

It's not in any case the same as the problem from paying for a companion on Dublin Bus: [1] on Luas there is already a time frame of about 20-30 seconds before you can tag off after just tagging on, so tagging off is a very deliberate act; [2] the problem on Dublin Bus is purely down to a lack of driver training / poor driver training.