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Crazy council plan for clontarf.

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    #212
    Yahew
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    those arguments are correct, but it doesn't follow that public spending is spent on the rich(er) neighbourhoods. Taxation is supposed to equalise that kind of spending.


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    #213
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Yahew wrote: »
    those arguments are correct, but it doesn't follow that public spending is spent on the rich(er) neighbourhoods. Taxation is supposed to equalise that kind of spending.
    I agree with you. The affluence (or otherwise) of those living in an area should not influence the nature of the works they get.

    I only discuss it because Degsy believes that if you pay more taxes, you should get better public works. Personally, I disagree with him.


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    #214
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    I only discuss it because Degsy believes that if you pay more taxes, you should get better public works. Personally, I disagree with him.


    No i dont..i said if you want better public works then you should pay more taxes,

    You're not even from clontarf yet you seem to be an expert on the region and its status as a motherlode of taxable income.


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    #215
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    .
    House prices in D3 above the national average.


    http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/31-caledon-road-east-wall-dublin-3/423803

    Heres a house in Dublin 3 for 115,000...


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    #216
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    The affluence (or otherwise) of those living in an area should not influence the nature of the works they get.

    Too right, if they want a more expensive option so their views are not obstructed, pay out of their own pockets.


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    #217
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    No i dont..i said if you want better public works then you should pay more taxes,.

    The reverse being that if you pay more taxes, you get better works, right?
    Degsy wrote: »
    You're not even from clontarf
    Do you actually read posts or do you have a different definition of 'from' to normal people?


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    #218
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    The reverse being that if you pay more taxes, you get better works, right?


    Do you actually read posts or do you have a different definition of 'from' to normal people?

    drkpower wrote: »
    I lived in East Wall for about 6 years until a short few years ago.I live in Clontarf now

    You're not from clontarf...and i take it you spent your time in east wall studying the amount of tax people were paying and comparing it with that being payed in your new Clontarf home?


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    #219
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/31-caledon-road-east-wall-dublin-3/423803

    Heres a house in Dublin 3 for 115,000...

    Can you see any issue with extrapolating a conclusion from one piece of evidence, cant you. :D

    Now, here's a rental/sales price survey from daft. I wonder which is more representative...?!!

    http://www.daft.ie/report/constantin-gurdgiev-2011q2

    http://www.daft.ie/report/rachel-breslin

    When you have read them, you might come back to this question, which you have avoided about 5 times now:

    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?


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    #220
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    You're not from clontarf...and i take it you spent your time in east wall studying the amount of tax people were paying and comparing it with that being payed in your new Clontarf home?

    :DOh, I see, are you saying that because I havent lived there all my life...?!!:D

    Serioucly, is that the best you can do?!!:D


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    #221
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    :DOh, I see, are you saying that because I havent lived there all my life...?!!:D

    Serioucly, is that the best you can do?!!:D


    So you're backing up my theory that most of the protesters are blow-ins!


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    #222
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Too right, if they want a more expensive option so their views are not obstructed, pay out of their own pockets.

    You should be taking your issues up wiht Degsy,who believs that if you pay more taxes, you should get more expensicve public works.

    You might list the reasons why the residents oppose the works as currently formulated; then compare it against what you believe those reasons to be. That might help you.


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    #223
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    So you're backing up my theory that most of the protesters are blow-ins!
    :DWhen it comes to the future plans for the Clontarf flood-works, you might explain what the duration of someone's residence in Clontarf has to do with the veracity or otherwise of one's views.....

    And then, can you address these questions which are at the heart of your concerns:

    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?


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    #224
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    You should be taking your issues up wiht Degsy,who believs that if you pay more taxes, you should get more expensicve public works.

    You might list the reasons why the residents oppose the works as currently formulated; then compare it against what you believe those reasons to be. That might help you.

    Read the thread first.


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    #225
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1117/1224307706061.html
    Residents remain opposed to their construction on the grounds that they would ruin the local amenity and the views of Dublin Bay.


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    #226
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1117/1224307706061.html

    Are you serious?!!! Even that article - and that quote - gives an alternative reason to 'views'......:D Hohohoho!

    (nevermind the other reasons that have been given and which are available publically)


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    #227
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    Are you serious?!!! Even that article - and that quote - gives an alternative reason to 'views'......:D Hohohoho!

    (nevermind the other reasons that have been given and which are available publically)

    No it does not. What's with the hohoho, is this AH?

    Its there in the article for you, they object on 2 grounds to the flood defence, that is the ruination of the amenity and the ruination of their views of Dublin Bay.


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    #228
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Its there in the article for you, they object on 2 grounds to the flood defence, that is the ruination of the amenity and the ruination of their views of Dublin Bay.

    So why did you suggest previously that the objection was purely about 'views'? Or were you just trying to be disingenuos? Or do you not understand that ruination of an amenity means more than obstructing views?
    Too right, if they want a more expensive option so their views are not obstructed, pay out of their own pockets.


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    #229
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    So why did you suggest previously that the objection was purely about 'views'? Or were you just trying to be disingenuos? Or do you not understand that ruination of an amenity means more than obstructing views?

    The views part was and is prominent among the residents, it would not be among the people who do not live there and use the place solely for amenities.


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    #230
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    The views part was and is prominent among the residents, it would not be among the people who do not live there and use the place solely for amenities.
    What utter nonsense. The number of houses/apartments that actually benefit from a view that will be affected can scarcely be more than 100-200. The numbers who have signed the petition/attended the various public meeting is in the thousands. The benefit of a 'view' is only an issue for a minority. You should put more thought into your objections so they at least pass some kind of muster.


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    #231
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?


    Too much...they can easily reduce costs by not including a path in the plans.

    I hope common sense prevails and the cheapest option is the one implemented.


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    #232
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    What utter nonsense. The number of houses/apartments that actually benefit from a view that will be affected can scarcely be more than 100-200. The numbers who have signed the petition/attended the various public meeting is in the thousands. The benefit of a 'view' is only an issue for a minority. You should put more thought into your objections so they at least pass some kind of muster.

    Shouldn't residents opinions among these 'thousands' have more significance than outsiders as residents reside in the area and are directly affected by any floods and flood defence proposals?

    Its quite obvious from the DCC presentation where you have viewed the altered views that arise from the built flood defences that there their objections are baseless.


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    #233
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Council flies in expert over Clontarf flood battle http://www.herald.ie/news/council-flies-in-expert-over-clontarf-flood-battle-2945989.html

    if the CBA/CRA and want the report options looked at again why would they oppose talking to the consultant

    http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/waterprojects/Documents/Appendix%203%20Part%204%20EIS%20Report.pdf
    page 63 it shows the options that were looked at

    anyway this is dublin sized issue not a local one.


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    #234
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    Too much...they can easily reduce costs by not including a path in the plans.

    I hope common sense prevails and the cheapest option is the one implemented.
    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?


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    #235
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Shouldn't residents opinions among these 'thousands' have more significance than outsiders as residents reside in the area and are directly affected by any floods and flood defence proposals?.
    The promenade is an amenity for the wider area, and wider Dublin, not just for those living on the seafront. Certainly, the seafront residents views are of significant importance because, as you say, potential flooding is something that only they are at risk of. But their views are not the only relevant ones.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Its quite obvious from the DCC presentation where you have viewed the altered views that arise from the built flood defences that there their objections are baseless.

    That sentence doesnt really make sense? What are you trying to say?

    You might outline what specific objections are baseless and why?


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    #236
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    drkpower wrote: »
    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?

    i keep seeing this post over and over, Can you outline the costs?


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    #237
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    kceire wrote: »
    i keep seeing this post over and over, Can you outline the costs?
    No; but I am not claiming that the residents solution is outlandishly more expensive than DCC's. Degsy is. But s/he is unable to provide any support for that position. Which, of course, robs his position of any merit.

    See how it works?


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    #238
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,476 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    expectationlost wrote: »
    Council flies in expert over Clontarf flood battle http://www.herald.ie/news/council-flies-in-expert-over-clontarf-flood-battle-2945989.html
    .
    So already there's money being pissed away because of those objectionists...


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    #239
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    That sentence doesnt really make sense? What are you trying to say?

    You might outline what specific objections are baseless and why?

    Makes perfect sense.

    Look at the views(pictures) which I had posted. There is hardly any alteration in the views which leaves one to think that the objections are based on hysterics rather than on actual study.


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    #240
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    drkpower wrote: »
    No; but I am not claiming that the residents solution is outlandishly more expensive than DCC's. Degsy is. But s/he is unable to provide any support for that position. Which, of course, robs his position of any merit.

    See how it works?

    how about you stop arguing with him and try to progress the discussion.

    what is the residents solution?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1117/breaking68.html

    The associations have said that they would be in favour of an option that would see the level of the seawall raised along with the promenade footpath.

    ah this is the entire 2005 Royal Haskoning dublin coastal flooding project report http://www.clontarf.ie/_uploads/files/dcfpp_final_report_report.pdf pg 354


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    #241
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    http://aodhanoriordain.blogspot.com/2011/10/raising-clontarf-flood-defences-under.html

    In Aodhan O'Rriordain's Dail speech he referenced "Dublin City Council’s Clontarf promenade steering committee" what sort of steering committee was that, an internal council technical one? I can no reference to anyway else online.

    and "The minutes of the meeting indicate that council officials realised, even at that point, the need to provide clear images and drawings for the public consultation process. This recommendation was not pursued, however."

    minutes?

    So often planning involves some badly photocopied technical drawings, that you might not be able to read, Also I think planners don't like to draw diagrams at early stages, because they think that the public may presume they are definitely happening, basically theirs condescension to the public from experts who job it is to make things clear. Would like to see more diagrams with each option, where it shows the how far the sea has and will come.


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