Crazy council plan for clontarf.

Floppybits

I am really beginning to believe that only morons are working in councils and government in this country. Anyways the story here is that the council plan to build an 8 foot mound of muck all along the clontarf promenade. This will mean that the views from there will now be blocked of by the mound. I mean what sort of idiot thinks of this along one of the most used parts of the city. Its nuts.

clontarf residents object to insane flood defence plans

mikemac

There have been four major floods in recent years in the area and some insurance companies have threatened to withdraw flood cover for about 3,000 homes and businesses if permanent defence plans are not put in place.

I agree it's unsightly

But something has to be done, what other ways can be done to stop flooding?
Genuinely asking, I don't know about flood defenses

Huge capacity drainage along the promenade maybe?

Possibly the council are going for the easiest and cheapest option

I'm still waiting for the Sutton to Sandymount cycle lane they've been talking about for over five years now

sdanseo

Add two feet to the existing sea wall (it's very low, full of holes and designed with railings integrated...not ideal for keeping the water out, really :P ), or rebuild and strengthen it to that height if needs be. If that's then too high above the promenade, use earthworks to raise the level of the promenade a little.

bamboozle

mikemac wrote: »

I agree it's unsightly

But something has to be done, what other ways can be done to stop flooding?
Genuinely asking, I don't know about flood defenses

Huge capacity drainage along the promenade maybe?

Possibly the council are going for the easiest and cheapest option

I'm still waiting for the Sutton to Sandymount cycle lane they've been talking about for over five years now

i'm a resident along this stretch and agree something has to be done but to construct 9 foot high walls permantly blocking the sea view for a 3km stretch is not the answer,
Clontarf's seafront is a local amenity used every days by walkers, joggers, cyclists etc and it cannot be treated like this and just blocked from view forever.

it really has to be the most idiotic plan i've ever heard and just smacks of narrow minded, short sighted & idiotic planning.

Flooding is a threat all over the world, i'm sure the answer elsewhere is not to build 9 foot walls.

Degsy

The powers that be are quite happy to let the lagoon on the dollymount side silt up completley because they never thought to allow the sea to flow under the causeway.

Since i was a kid i'd estimate Bull Island has grown by over 200 metres while the water gets shallower year on year.

Dyr

"We'll lose our lovely view" is a pretty flimsy objection tbh

dusty207

Mebbe if they build 9 foot high glass walls

bamboozle

Bambi wrote: »

"We'll lose our lovely view" is a pretty flimsy objection tbh

why?

would you rather live across the road from the sea with views over dublin bay or across the road from a 9 foot wall when there have to be other options considered as are done in other areas throughout the world.

Dyr

I'd rather not have a lovely view of the sea while sitting in the living room :pac:

delta_bravo

bamboozle wrote: »

why?

would you rather live across the road from the sea with views over dublin bay or across the road from a 9 foot wall when there have to be other options considered as are done in other areas throughout the world.

Well this place is only about 2 metres above sea level. It floods regularly. If the people refuse this wall will they refuse aid from the council when it floods again?

Hermy

This wall or mound or whatever is going to be eight foot high.
Can anyone tell me what the top of the mound will be eight feet above?
Will it be the footpath on the promenade or high tide or something else?

RMD

Bambi wrote: »

"We'll lose our lovely view" is a pretty flimsy objection tbh

That view also equals a decent chunk of a house price. Many people will buy a house along Clontarf road because they'll have a view over the bay. Taking into account there's 300 hundred houses along the road, it adds up to a couple of million in falling prices. Not to mention as said it's a popular amenity used by cyclists, walkers, sports teams / athletic clubs etc. Stick a 9 foot mound in the middle of it and it ruins it for a lot of people.

In the 10+ years I've been living in Clontarf I've only seen 2 bad spots of flooding both well controlled by sand bags. I've never seen flooding conditions that would require a 9 foot wall.

Dyr

oh I'm sure property values are the real issue here but there'll be a lot of coyness from the good people of clontarf on that front, joe dufy won't mention it either I bet

RMD

Bambi wrote: »

oh I'm sure property values are the real issue here but there'll be a lot of coyness from the good people of clontarf on that front, joe dufy won't mention it either I bet

If you don't live there why does it bother you? It's not the real issue but it's one issue, would you be happy if I told you an unnecessary project that would knock 20-30k off the price of your house was going to happen would you be happy? No you clearly wouldn't. Or perhaps a nice view across from your house that also happens to be a useful amenity to many people daily will be ruined, would you be happy? No you wouldn't.

What are the great benefits of this project since you seem entirely against the opponents of it?

mikemac

There was plenty of plugging going on with Joe Duffy

Hi Joe, I run x business, I'm a concerned resident, did I mention I run x business

Sly. But Joe Duffy seems to have a thing with Clontarf, dedicating whole shows when there was an issue with a headshop in Clontarf. Does he live there?

Joe Duffy has forgotten he works for RTÉ national radio, seems to think he works for Dublin local radio

Anyway, we'll see how this goes

bamboozle

mikemac wrote: »

There was plenty of plugging going on with Joe Duffy

Hi Joe, I run x business, I'm a concerned resident, did I mention I run x business

Sly. But Joe Duffy seems to have a thing with Clontarf, dedicating whole shows when there was an issue with a headshop in Clontarf. Does he live there?

Joe Duffy has forgotten he works for RTÉ national radio, seems to think he works for Dublin local radio

Anyway, we'll see how this goes

he also happens to be a resident of Clontarf and anything he can do to expose the idiocicy of this plan will be greatly accepted by the residents of Clontarf and indeed those of the general area who pass through, stop off for walks cycles etc

Dyr

Red Joe is a clontarfer alright.

If you don't live there why does it bother you? It's not the real issue but it's one issue, would you be happy if I told you an unnecessary project that would knock 20-30k off the price of your house was going to happen would you be happy? No you clearly wouldn't. Or perhaps a nice view across from your house that also happens to be a useful amenity to many people daily will be ruined, would you be happy? No you wouldn't.

a) There are many places in dublin that have the corporation meddling with them for the benefit of the city, I live in one.

b) That's the price people pay for living next door to the sea.

c) If it is going to stop flooding then it's not unneccesary

Of course if the good residents of the area have alternative plans for flood prevention than these should be looked at. Presumably any difference in cost will be met by these good residents

bamboozle

delta_bravo wrote: »

Well this place is only about 2 metres above sea level. It floods regularly. If the people refuse this wall will they refuse aid from the council when it floods again?

must point out your facts are wrong, I live on this road and am born and raised in Clontarf, i've never seen any houses affected by flooding, i've seen a few occasions (2) where sand bags were required as a preventative measure.

bamboozle

Bambi wrote: »

Red Joe is a clontarfer alright.



a) There are many places in dublin that have the corporation meddling with them for the benefit of the city, I live in one.

b) That's the price people pay for living next door to the sea.

c) If it is going to stop flooding then it's not unneccesary

Of course if the good residents of the area have alternative plans for flood prevention than these should be looked at. Presumably any difference in cost will be met by these good residents

there's a bit of a difference between meddling and needlessly destroying an amenity. I'm sorry you seem to have an issue with 'the good residents' of Clontarf, thankfully the residents of Clontarf are far more aware of the impact of floods on the area and the requirements to counter it. Perhaps you could concentrate your energies on the manner in which the corporation is meddling in your area rather than making cynical remarks about an issue that clearly bears little relevence to you and would have a major impact on the residents of another area?

average_runner

How do people want to prevent their houses from flooding?

Whats more important your house or a view?

Dyr

bamboozle wrote: »

Perhaps you could concentrate your energies on the manner in which the corporation is meddling in your area rather than making cynical remarks about an issue that clearly bears little relevence to you and would have a major impact on the residents of another area?

This is the dublin forum, not the clontarf forum.

What amenity are they destroying? It sounds outrageous now

bamboozle

Bambi wrote: »

This is the dublin forum, not the clontarf forum.

What amenity are they destroying? It sounds outrageous now

this is a thread on Clontarf within the Dublin forum.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you on an issue that is clearly of zero relevence to you.

reprazant

bamboozle wrote: »

must point out your facts are wrong, I live on this road and am born and raised in Clontarf, i've never seen any houses affected by flooding, i've seen a few occasions (2) where sand bags were required as a preventative measure.

The problem is though that the insurance companies are starting to say that they won't insure as it is a flood risk.

The same happened in Irishtown and the State had pay out there when it flooded. The council have since built a larger flood wall that looks quite nice.

average_runner wrote: »

How do people want to prevent their houses from flooding?

Whats more important your house or a view?

Generally, it is the view.

Until the house actually gets flooded or gets close to being flooded, then nobody cares about the view.

Degsy

RMD wrote: »

If you don't live there why does it bother you? It's not the real issue but it's one issue, would you be happy if I told you an unnecessary project that would knock 20-30k off the price of your house was going to happen would you be happy??

Well then sell now before they build the bloody wall.

mikemac

Any objections to one of these? Looks nicer then an earth bank

Any little scrote caught smashing glass should be tossed into the sea

hidinginthebush

Surely if they do build such a mount they'll stick the cycle / walking track on top of it?

I'm not from Clontarf, but used to get to bus down the coast regularly, and it wasn't that uncommon a sight to see the houses in Clontarf with sandbags outside their driveways a few times every Winter, was that just precautionary? (Generally asking, not sniping at anyone here).

Though I will say they'd be better off forgetting about that wall all together and re-surfacing that road, it's in bloody bits!

Degsy

mikemac wrote: »

Any objections to one of these? Looks nicer then an earth bank

Any little scrote caught smashing glass should be tossed into the sea

I like this idea


And it'll give local graffiti artists a place to indulge thier work..everybody's a winner.

Mr Simpson

Why not use something like this, its removable and they can install it easily when they are made aware of a flood risk

Dyr

Degsy wrote: »

I like this idea


And it'll give local graffiti artists a place to indulge thier work..everybody's a winner.

Just stick a few halting sites on the promenade, the wall will go up fairly sharpish then:pac:

crushproof

mmcn90 wrote: »

Why not use something like this, its removable and they can install it easily when they are made aware of a flood risk

Seems a bit too forward thinking for DCC to be honest :rolleyes:

Although this was invisaged a few years ago. A dyke built from Sutton to Sandycove preventing flooding from storm surges, which will definately become more common with rising sea levels. See page 18 of this report.
http://www.euro-case.org/publications/transport/TransportIreland.pdf

RMD

mmcn90 wrote: »

Why not use something like this, its removable and they can install it easily when they are made aware of a flood risk

I extremely doubt it will hold off large sea swells, it could function along a river where it will confine the flow to the nearby river area but against head-on large sea swells I don't see it coping. The current system of sand bags works fine, it has always worked fine and I've never seen a flood that required a 9 foot dyke to prevent it.

Inbox

I only read recently that sea levels arent rising anymore but are dropping. Can't remember where I read it though.

latenia

I think people from Clontarf have an inflated opinion of the value of the sea view-it's mainly cranes, fuel tanks and containers along there. If their house is flooded it's value will be virtually zero so perhaps they should be thankful that their choice of neighbourhood is being subsidised by the council.

bamboozle

latenia wrote: »

I think people from Clontarf have an inflated opinion of the value of the sea view-it's mainly cranes, fuel tanks and containers along there. If their house is flooded it's value will be virtually zero so perhaps they should be thankful that their choice of neighbourhood is being subsidised by the council.

what a bizarre & petty comment. Believe it or not, some people like sea views & sea views add value to property, attract diners to restaurants etc, the prom in Clontarf is a hive of activity from dawn till dusk every day year round with walkers, cyclists, joggers.
Dublin City Council need to realise that the residents of Clontarf and the surrounds have for years been extremely united against Dublin Port's many failed plans for a land infill in Dublin Bay and their bizarre and short-sighted plans will be met with resistence from a united & organised group of residents.

J K

RMD wrote: »

I extremely doubt it will hold off large sea swells, it could function along a river where it will confine the flow to the nearby river area but against head-on large sea swells I don't see it coping.

Are you seeing a flaw in the design of the structure or in the materials used - concrete and steel? Does your prediction hold true for whatever specifications or size of wall and beams used or just for the one pictured in the link?

Degsy

bamboozle wrote: »

some people like sea views & sea views add value to property, attract diners to restaurants etc, .

What restaurants? The Indian at the bottom of the woden bridge and the handful of overpriced dumps selling paninis and Ciabatas?

People dont go there because of the sea views..they go there because they're pretentious and they like to think Clontarf is dalkey..which it isnt.

Yahew

What about something like the Waterford flood wall ( made of glass and stone)? Admittedly it protects against the Suir, not the Sea, but the Suir is quite tidal, and when at high tide part of the sea.

See here:

http://www.rpsgroup.com/Energy/News/Waterford-City-Flood-Alleviation-Scheme.aspx

Mr Simpson

Yahew wrote: »

What about something like the Waterford flood wall ( made of glass and stone)? Admittedly it protects against the Suir, not the Sea, but the Suir is quite tidal, and when at high tide part of the sea.

See here:

http://www.rpsgroup.com/Energy/News/Waterford-City-Flood-Alleviation-Scheme.aspx

Was actually looking at that yesterday. If it's suitable, I think it could look quite
well

bamboozle

Degsy wrote: »

What restaurants? The Indian at the bottom of the woden bridge and the handful of overpriced dumps selling paninis and Ciabatas?

People dont go there because of the sea views..they go there because they're pretentious and they like to think Clontarf is dalkey..which it isnt.

Kinara, Restaurant 1014, Cafe Corvo, The Yacht, Sand Bar, Casa Pasta, Bay Restaurant

i'm sure all the above will agree they have a strong passing trade of people who have gone for a walk along the prom and popped in for a bit to eat or a drink afterwards especially on a sunny day & the weekends.

bamboozle

Yahew wrote: »

What about something like the Waterford flood wall ( made of glass and stone)? Admittedly it protects against the Suir, not the Sea, but the Suir is quite tidal, and when at high tide part of the sea.

See here:

http://www.rpsgroup.com/Energy/News/Waterford-City-Flood-Alleviation-Scheme.aspx

that looks very nice (considering the alternative!)

Degsy

bamboozle wrote: »

Kinara, Restaurant 1014, Cafe Corvo, The Yacht, Sand Bar, Casa Pasta, Bay Restaurant

i'm sure all the above will agree they have a strong passing trade of people who have gone for a walk along the prom and popped in for a bit to eat or a drink afterwards especially on a sunny day & the weekends.

Well then the wishes of those seven,overpriced eating establishments must be respected..but can i ask you one thing?

Would they prefer to be flooded whilst they're serving dinner or discomoded by the sight of an anti-flooding measure?

buscuit

Degsy wrote: »

What restaurants? The Indian at the bottom of the woden bridge and the handful of overpriced dumps selling paninis and Ciabatas?

People dont go there because of the sea views..they go there because they're pretentious and they like to think Clontarf is dalkey..which it isnt.

Degsy wrote: »

Well then the wishes of those seven,overpriced eating establishments must be respected..but can i ask you one thing?

Would they prefer to be flooded whilst they're serving dinner or discomoded by the sight of an anti-flooding measure?

Man, your comments are idiotic. You really add nothing to this discussion.

From what I have heard (from someone that has lived in Clontarf for the last 60 years) is that there has actually only been one instance of flooding in that time. This is really about laying the groundwork to eventually reclaim a substantial part of the nature reserve, something DCC have been wanting to do for sometime.

John_Rambo

Sand Bar overpriced? That's a first... Kinara's early bird is great value, Bay's lunches are good value too. 1014 does great deals and all profits go to charity.

If I lived with a view of a bay I would be pissed off if they were going to build a wall blocking it, so would you Degsy, and you know it! There are plenty of unemployed highly skilled Irish architects and engineers that could come up with alternative, ingenious methods of flood defense. DCC are being lazy here. I cycle the coast a good bit and I love looking at the herons, egrets and curlews, as do lots of people. Blocking it is moronic, no matter how much disdain you hold for the coastal residents and businesses.

latenia

bamboozle wrote: »

what a bizarre & petty comment. Believe it or not, some people like sea views & sea views add value to property

I like sea views too; what Clontarf has is a port view.

John_Rambo

latenia wrote: »

I like sea views too; what Clontarf has is a port view.

That blue wobbly stuff in between the shore and the port is actually sea. I like the port view, I used to sail and row from Poolbeg. I like watching the ships come in and out, the pilots racing up and down the wall, loads of people do.

expectationlost

the focus on the wall parts is a distraction it will be mostly a sloping grass bund, I am surprised at the height, I had seen the plans which indicated around 1.75 height, it seemed people had accepted that, would water really get over 1.75 wall, or is it just waves,is there somewhere that explains that.



the view is not that great, http://www.reclaimthesea.com/images/clontarf_jetty001.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Clontarf_shore.jpg http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=dublin&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x48670e80ea27ac2f:0xa00c7a9973171a0,Dublin,+Co.+Fingal&gl=ie&ei=WKKZTqX1E4WyhAfj9-iKBA&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ8gEwAA

and the listing of graffitti among the problems just suburbian hysteria

http://www.clontarfresidents.com/news/view/flood-defences-clontarf-latest-update
thought this was an interesting comment from Martin Ó Treasaigh, maybe the council aren't thinking big enough.

You might want to consult with a hydrographic engineer about the necessity of these defenses.
The way the harbour is designed is to trap a large volume of water between the north and south Bull walls to create tidal scour at the entrance.
The system was designed to have two relief systems to prevent too much pressure (water) in the harbour. One was the half height section of the north wall (from the Marian statue out to the North Bull Light) and the other was the gap in the north wall that was later bridged by the now iconic wooden bridge.
There is a lot of detail about this design in the book about the history of Dublin port. It is also touched on briefly in this website: http://www.clontarfonline.com/bull_wall.htm
When they built the causeway from Raheny across to the Bull Island they effectively closed off the essential 2nd relief valve to allow water out of the harbour when it is rising too high.
Flooding only occurs when a strong easterly wind coincides with a high tide and usually heavy rain. In this situation there are two rivers, lots of streams and storm drains etc. pouring into the harbour enclosed by the north and south walls, but it cannot get out as the wind is forcing more seawater into the harbour entrance.
This is when the excess water should be able to escape via the gap in the north wall (wooden bridge) and out into the bay around the Bull Island. Since it cannot escape this way it finds the next lowest or weakest spot, be it Clontarf or Ballybough or wherever, and floods it.
The city council regularly quotes a tidal study stating that the causeway was built at a null point in the tidal stream, but was this data gathered during an easterly storm?
I am not a Hydrographic Engineer, so I cannot state for certain that this is definitely the main issue, but I am sure it must be a contributory factor.
If the 2nd relief valve was reinstated a much reduced defence for Clontarf might be feasible.

why not remove that causeway and put back a bridge that whole area is silting up, more more looking like a field then a bay. presumably there are big pipes under that letting water through?

it seems to be the narrowness of the area which exacerbates the problem and there were trying to make it even narrower by extending the port!

I made this to show how much changes there has been in dublin bay, through human intervention,I agree clontarf hasn't had a seaview for 150 years
http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2010/09/dublin-bay-coastline-google-timeline.html you'll need the plugin

those that talk of property prices, whether it be the crash or the flooding they've gone accept it.

this is good page
http://www.floods.ie shows the flood reports

RMD

Degsy wrote: »

Well then the wishes of those seven,overpriced eating establishments must be respected..but can i ask you one thing?

Would they prefer to be flooded whilst they're serving dinner or discomoded by the sight of an anti-flooding measure?

I'd prefer to keep it as it is knowing it quite likely wont be flooded. I've lived here for 10+ years, in that time the area has only flooded once to a point where they had to close the seafront while the water was kept out of houses using sandbags, no damage was done.

I have never seen nor heard of a situation where an 8 foot dyke was needed. I don't see why you're so against the opponents of it, you don't live in the area so it wont affect you regardless what happens. Really just seems you have some chip in your shoulder with Clontarf.

mikemac

Degsy wrote: »

The powers that be are quite happy to let the lagoon on the dollymount side silt up completley because they never thought to allow the sea to flow under the causeway.

expectationlost wrote: »

why not remove that causeway and put back a bridge that whole area is silting up, more more looking like a field then a bay.

I find that very interesting
Great post expectationlost, are you an engineer?

I don't know a lot about the subject, had to google what tidal scour was
But if that would help it seems a very simple and obvious solution. I wonder why the council aren't going with it

expectationlost

mikemac wrote: »

I find that very interesting
Great post expectationlost, are you an engineer?

I don't know a lot about the subject, had to google what tidal scour was
But if that would help it seems a very simple and obvious solution. I wonder why the council aren't going with it

sorry didn't make it clear that quote is from
Martin Ó Treasaigh on

http://www.clontarfresidents.com/news/view/flood-defences-clontarf-latest-update


http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Water/WaterServicesProjects/SurfaceWaterProjects/CoastalFloodProtectionScheme/FileDownload,21667,en.pdf
http://www.dublincity.ie/waterwasteenvironment/waterprojects/pages/coastalfloodingprojects.aspx#clontarf%20flood%20defence
http://www.floodresiliencity.eu/files/file/FRC_in_den_Medien/IBM%20FRM%20Summit%20Tony%20Maguire.pdf
http://www.greenparty.ie/ga/content/download/11679/131627/file/dublin%20flooding.pdf

I do agree with dublin bay joe http://nearpodcast.org/pcast/?p=2780
this is about the port

expectationlost

big turnout at the protest http://www.thejournal.ie/clontarf-residents-protest-over-flood-wall-plans-255484-Oct2011/#slide-slideshow7

monument

latenia wrote: »

I think people from Clontarf have an inflated opinion of the value of the sea view-it's mainly cranes, fuel tanks and containers along there. If their house is flooded it's value will be virtually zero so perhaps they should be thankful that their choice of neighbourhood is being subsidised by the council.

latenia wrote: »

I like sea views too; what Clontarf has is a port view.

I'm not from Clontarf or nor do I live there or know anybody who lives there, but I love the views along the cycle track.

It's a mix of a view of the bay, the sea, the port and Bull Island -- most of the port tanks and things are about 800m or more from the Clontarf, so they look quite distance and with things like the Poolbeg chimneys, people tend to have a wide range of views on these from love to hate to everything in-between.

Anyway, the sea, the bay, the port and Bull Island: