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Crazy council plan for clontarf.

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    #182
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    These people moaning are all blow ins..
    Really?
    Do you have access to the backgrounds of those who signed the petition/attended the meetings/demonstrations etc?

    What would you class as a 'blow in'?


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    #183
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    The people on my road pay way more tax than those in, lets say, East Wall.

    You have statistics to back this up do you?

    This is exactly what i meant by regional elitism.


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    #184
    hardCopy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    Degsy wrote: »
    You have statistics to back this up do you?

    This is exactly what i meant by regional elitism.

    I think you've missed his point. You think that people in Clontarf should have to pay extra tax to fund the flood defence, he's highlighting the fact that tax doesn't work that way.


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    #185
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    You have statistics to back this up do you?.
    On the differential in average income and spending between those who live in Clontarf and East Wall? Do you dispute that as a proposition or are you just looking for statistics as an obfuscation of some sort?
    Degsy wrote: »
    This is exactly what i meant by regional elitism.
    How is it regional elitism. I lived in East Wall for about 6 years until a short few years ago. I think its a great place, wonderful sense of community. I live in Clontarf now. I also think its a great place.

    Your suggestion that those who pay more tax should get more expensive public works surely speaks more of regional elitism than my pointing to the differential in income/spending in Clontarf vis a vis East Wall.

    Now back to the point; have you realised the flaw in your initial suggestion that who pay more tax should get more expensive public works?


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    #186
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    .

    Now back to the point; have you realised the flaw in your initial suggestion that who pay more tax should get more expensive public works?

    No..im saying that the country is nearly bankrupt.

    People are dying on trollies in a&e departments,schools are closing and crime is out of control....the whims of a bunch of NIMBYs in clontarf should be the last criteria the govt employs when spending public money.

    Let the business asssociation fund it privately if they know better..the money would be far better employed elsewhere anyway.


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    #187
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    ...the money would be far better employed elsewhere anyway.
    Ok, so we are back to the money.

    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?

    Although given your view is that those who pay more tax should getter better and more public works, would you not support better and more expensive public works for this project given that the residents of Clontarf are likely to pay significantly higher tax than the average? If not, why not?


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    #188
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    given that the residents of Clontarf are likely to pay significantly higher tax than the average?


    have you got statistics to back this up?


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    #189
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    have you got statistics to back this up?

    Are you really disputing it or is this just a form of obfuscation to avoid answering questions?


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    #190
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,425 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    lets be honest, the reall reason for this is that they want to expand thr port and recali lotes more land. if it is hidden behind "flood Walls2 they'll get less objection..


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    #191
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    Are you really disputing it or is this just a form of obfuscation to avoid answering questions?


    Yes i am disputing it..you made a ludicrous assertation based on nothing more than genuine snobbery and you're incapable of proving what you said.

    Not everybody in clontarf is a working tax payer contributing huge amounts of money to the national coffers.


    There is a large proportion of retirees living in the area,there are a lot of foreigners renting properties,there are students in houseshares,there are people on the dole and there are criminals living on the proceeds of crimes..just like in other areas.

    To state,with apalling arrogance that people in clontarf pay more tax than people in East wall is just ridiculous.

    Trying to stop vital works because a) "We'll lose a teesny weensy bit of our view" and b) "Because we pay more tax and deserve special treatment" is reprehensible and frankly quite sickening.


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    #192
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    Yes i am disputing it..you made a ludicrous assertation based on nothing more than genuine snobbery and you're incapable of proving what you said..

    :DRead the below, which you could have googled in two minutes if you really disputed my point, which of course you didnt. Clearly shows incomes in Dublin to be well above the national average. Consider in conjunction with that, house prices in the Clontarf area versus other areas, which would act as a somewhat rough guide to income levels and amounts of tax paid.
    http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2008/regincome_2008.pdf

    Now, you tried to obfuscate disputing a simple fact. Youve been shown up. Now try to answer the questions I asked.

    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?

    Although given your view is that those who pay more tax should getter better and more public works, would you not support better and more expensive public works for this project given that the residents of Clontarf are likely to pay significantly higher tax than the average? If not, why not?
    Degsy wrote: »
    "Because we pay more tax and deserve special treatment" is reprehensible and frankly quite sickening. ..
    That was actually your point! Hohohoho!
    Degsy wrote: »
    Well if you want more expensive works then you can pay more tax....


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    #193
    West Brit
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭West Brit


    I don't know if this has been asked before but why couldn't the current sea wall be raised with the grass promenade then rising up to it and the placement of the current footpath on top if it, that way the promenade wouldn't be cut off from the road, the residents wouldn't have to look at a wall everyone's happy.... no?


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    #194
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    drkpower wrote: »
    :DRead the below, which you could have googled in two minutes if you really disputed my point, which of course you didnt. Clearly shows incomes in Dublin to be well above the national average. Consider in conjunction with that, house prices in the Clontarf area versus other areas, which would act as a somewhat rough guide to income levels and amounts of tax paid.
    http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2008/regincome_2008.pdf

    Now, you tried to obfuscate disputing a simple fact. Youve been shown up. Now try to answer the questions I asked.

    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?

    Although given your view is that those who pay more tax should getter better and more public works, would you not support better and more expensive public works for this project given that the residents of Clontarf are likely to pay significantly higher tax than the average? If not, why not?

    That was actually your point! Hohohoho!

    I searched that pdf, didn't see Clontarf or any part of Dublin mentioned.


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    #195
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    I searched that pdf, didn't see Clontarf or any part of Dublin mentioned.
    Nor did i say it did. It clearly shows average disposable incomes in dublin to be above average. Couple that with rentals in clontarf/d3 being above the national average, and house prces in clontarf/d3 being above the national average, it is reasonable inference that taxes paid would be above the national average in D3/clontarf.

    But in any case, it was Degsy's point that if you pay higher taxes, you get better public works, not mine.


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    #196
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    drkpower wrote: »
    Nor did i say it did. It clearly shows average disposable incomes in dublin to be above average. Couple that with rentals in clontarf/d3 being above the national average, and house prces in clontarf/d3 being above the national average, it is reasonable inference that taxes paid would be above the national average in D3/clontarf.

    But in any case, it was Degsy's point that if you pay higher taxes, you get better public works, not mine.

    So your link proves average income to be higher in Dublin? Not clontarf? You're assuming the rest and ignoring the fact that it could have a higher number of retired people? :D
    Actually, I'm only taking the piss, not interested in that argument :)


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    #197
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    So your link proves average income to be higher in Dublin? Not clontarf? You're assuming the rest and ignoring the fact that it could have a higher number of retired people? :D
    Actually, I'm only taking the piss, not interested in that argument :)
    Well you didnt have to post it if u didnt want the argument!

    The rental/house prices info are in any daft report. In fairness, it is almost self evident the point re average income in clontarf being above the national average. But the evidence is there to support that contention. And retired people pay tax!

    So by Degsys logic (not mine), the Clontarf residents should get substantially better and more expensive public works. Yet he compalins about it!


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    #198
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    So by Degsys logic (not mine), the Clontarf residents should get substantially better and more expensive public works. Yet he compalins about it!


    Dont be misquoting me..i think they should get exactly the opposite..as an "affluent" area they should fund it privately if they're going to be whinging about the council solution.


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    #199
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    But in any case, it was Degsy's point that if you pay higher taxes, you get better public works, not mine.

    I'm getting sick of this..i said IF they want better works LET THEM PAY more tax..do you get it now?


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    #200
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    I'm getting sick of this..i said IF they want better works LET THEM PAY more tax..do you get it now?
    :DHilarious. You don know what you are saying now. Is it 'fund it privately' or 'pay more tax'....? Do you understand the difference? Hohoho!:D

    Twice now, including in your own post above, you have stated that if they want better works, let them pay more taxes. So, as Clontarf/D3 residents, on average, pay more tax than the nationalaverage, surely you believe they should get better flood protections than lets say those in West Mayo (who pay less). Can you see any difficulties with this position, or would you like to flip flop your position once again?:D

    And back to one of the original questions I asked you which you have simply ignored and which goes to the core of your own point (insofar as you are making any point at all:D).

    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?


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    #201
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Degsy wrote: »
    so they want outrageous alternative suggestions such as dykes the length of Dublin bay so thier view isnt affected

    Where did you get this info Degsy?


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    #202
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    So, as Clontarf/D3 residents, on average, pay more tax than the nationalaverage,

    Says who?


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    #203
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Says who? Says the links and arguments I made above. Do you have any counter arguments using any statistics and or rational argument? do you have any answers to the other questions I asked? Indeed, do you have any coherent point other than making a fool of yourself?

    Your lack of any real capacity to think has led you to supporting the clontarf residents rights to superior flood defences by mistake!! Hohoho!


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    #204
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    drkpower wrote: »


    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?

    i dont' think you can answer these question either.


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    #205
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    expectationlost wrote: »

    i dont' think you can answer these question either.
    No, but I asked that question of degsy who claims that the clontarf residents solutions cost way more than the dcc plan. so I presume he knows the respective costs , unusually though he has avoided that question too. Hohoho!

    More seriously, no,of course I don't know but the dcc should be able to and I would like to hear that info.


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    #206
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    drkpower wrote: »
    Says who? Says the links and arguments I made above.

    A link relating to house prices does not prove that people in a given area pay more tax than "the national average".

    Can you prove that people in Clontarf pay more tax than anybody else in the country and by implication are deserving of special treatment vis a vis the allocation of funds?

    Of course you cant.

    A load of nonsense based on a selfish conceit and some babble about a seaview being compromised.

    The people of clontarf should put up,shut up or pay for the works themselves.


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    #207
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    drkpower wrote: »
    Says who? Says the links and arguments I made above. Do you have any counter arguments using any statistics and or rational argument? do you have any answers to the other questions I asked? Indeed, do you have any coherent point other than making a fool of yourself?

    Your lack of any real capacity to think has led you to supporting the clontarf residents rights to superior flood defences by mistake!! Hohoho!

    Do not get personal like this again


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    #208
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,485 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    drkpower wrote: »
    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?

    it doesn't matter if it's €10 more or €10 million more, the point is they are moaning about the council option and want a more expensive solution purely for aesthetics. If they want the more expensive one let them bridge the funding gap outa their own pockets, the council plan does the job fine...

    I see no reason why the council plan is not perfectly acceptable, apart from the destruction of all the trees/bushes (but I would presume they'll be replaced)


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    #209
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Degsy wrote: »
    A link relating to house prices does not prove that people in a given area pay more tax than "the national average"..
    Can you prove that people in Clontarf pay more tax than anybody else in the country and by implication are deserving of special treatment vis a vis the allocation of funds?

    Of course you cant.
    Average disposable income in Dublin above the national average.
    Rental prices in D3 above the national average.
    House prices in D3 above the national average.

    On the balance of probabilities, I certainly have proven it. Particularly when you have posited no information whatsoever in response. Do you want to try?
    Degsy wrote: »
    The people of clontarf should put up,shut up or pay for the works themselves.
    But your own view is that paying more tax than the average, which they do, justifies them getting better works. Using your logic, you are actually in favour of them getting these better works. :D

    Now, have you finally managed to give the following any thought?:
    Can you outline the costs of the original proposal?
    Can you outline the costs of all proposals made by the Clontarf residents?
    Can you then demonstrate how the latter is outlandishly more expensive than the former?


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    #210
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    it doesn't matter if it's €10 more or €10 million more, the point is they are moaning about the council option and want a more expensive solution purely for aesthetics.

    Have you read/heard what the objections are? You might list them and while you are at it, consider whether any of them relate to anything other than aesthetics? You will quickly see that you are wrong.

    Secondly, would you consider that 'aesthetics' are a relevant consideration when it comes to public amenities (ie. public parks, open spaces, gree belts)? You might have a think about what the functions of a public amenity are?


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    #211
    John Mason
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭John Mason


    drkpower wrote: »
    Average disposable income in Dublin above the national average.
    Rental prices in D3 above the national average.
    House prices in D3 above the national
      average.

      ?

      i also know at least 2 NAMA builders living in the area.


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