Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

Fuhrer · 17-11-2011 05:42PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

The Suarez incident isn't clear to anyone(on the outside), hence this hideous superthread.

The Terry incident appears more clearcut.

So.... you want everyone to stop talking about Suarez being a racist and talk about Terry instead?

17-11-2011 05:42PM

Fuhrer wrote: »

So.... you want everyone to stop talking about Suarez being a racist and talk about Terry instead?

I'm asking a question

YouTookMyName · 17-11-2011 05:45PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Any word on the Terry incident ?

I'd say he's delighted the Suarez case is stealing the limelight

The police are involved in that one.

flahavaj · 17-11-2011 05:46PM

The case ultimately rests on what Suarez's intentions were in using the word negrito.

(a) It is possible he was genuinely using the word in innocence.

(b) It is also possible he knew well the word had certain connotations that he knew would get Evra all wound up.

Ultimately only he knows the answer to this and no one can ever really prove exactly what was going through his head.

What is saddening about this whole affair is that if (a) is the case then surely all this could have been avoided by a simple explanation early on when the sh*t hit the fan.

Even if (b) is the case then it will ultimately be impossible to prove. He won't be charged because the FA can never prove what his intentions were.

What can be said with certainty that regardless of what Suarez intentions were, Evra had every right ot be as annoyed as he was, and can never be accused of lying or trying maliciously to blacken Suarez' name.

This thread has gotten very stupid at times and for my contribution towards that I apologise. Reading back over it is embarrasing.

17-11-2011 05:47PM

flahavaj wrote: »

The case ultimately rests on what Suarez's intentions were in using the word negrito.

(a) It is possible he was genuinely using the word in innocence.

(b) It is also possible he knew well the word had certain connotations that he knew would get Evra all wound up.

Ultimately only he knows the answer to this and no one can ever really prove exactly what was going through his head.

What is saddening about this whole affair is that if (a) is the case then surely all this could have been avoided by a simple explanation early on when the sh*t hit the fan.

Even if (b) is the case then it will ultimately be impossible to prove. He won't be charged because the FA can never prove what his intentions were.

Was that the word? Is that confirmed?

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 05:55PM

#15 wrote: »

Yeah, but to take cultural difference on its own, you would have to provide two examples where that difference causes offence.

Not diving doesn't cause offence in Italy, even when you take cultural factors into account.
It would have been a better comparison if you picked an example of something that is acceptable to Des (and Irish people in general) but not acceptable in Italian culture.

I agree with your point wrt the intensity of meaning in different cultures.

I blame Des and Kess for dragging the topic off to Paddys/Scousers/Burkha's or whatever other ethnic slurs they were getting at

. The topic went off on a tangent a bit and 'furbo' was just a tool i used in distinction of cultural difference but close to the topic of this forum.

Thats all it was, a cultural distinction, it wasnt meant as a parallel topic to racism.

Pro. F · 17-11-2011 05:56PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Im happy to bow out of this circular debate in fairness, said my bit, il dig out plenty of other blogs and reports with comments from plenty of contributors in those sections if you want to see some other angles of it, journalists from Mexico, Uruguay, Argentina etc, ive read plenty before i made any comment on this thread, but i think we get the jist of where this is going to end up.

I would be interested in those types of articles. Because of the fact that the whole discourse on racism in the latin world is so stunted I would be interested in any opinions from there that are sensibly formed and presented.
Edit: I've found the negrito issue tricky to research tbh.

daithijjj wrote: »

We happen to live in a part of the world where debates of this nature are at their most sensitive, just look to the coverage Blatter is getting today, his comments barely even make the news outside Uk and Ireland.

I don't think the sensitivity about race issues is much more than say north america or many other european countries tbh.

Either way this debate is not in any way a case of over sensitivity.

Blatter's comments were outrages imo and I would hope they would be condemned everywhere.

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 05:58PM

Fuhrer wrote: »

Racist to their own children?

What in the **** are you talking about?

Go back and read the points made earlier on today and how the debate has evolved rather than jumping into the pool with your shoes on.

Kess73 · 17-11-2011 06:00PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I blame Des and Kess for dragging the topic off to Paddys/Scousers/Burkha's or whatever other ethnic slurs they were getting at . The topic went off on a tangent a bit and 'furbo' was just a tool i used in distinction of cultural difference but close to the topic of this forum.

Thats all it was, a cultural distinction, it wasnt meant as a parallel topic to racism.

Feck you, you Bristolian Brummie by way of bogland and Dublin.:pac:

Des and I provided a little bit of light banter that was kind of on topic at the same time.

You on the other hand had the gall to put up a well thought out post earlier that made a hell of a lot of sense. For shame sir, for shame.

flahavaj · 17-11-2011 06:02PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Was that the word? Is that confirmed?

Not confirmed no. Disregard obviously if it wasn't.

Kess73 · 17-11-2011 06:02PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I would be interested in those types of articles. Because of the fact that the whole discourse on racism in the latin world is so stunted I would be interested in any opinions from there that are sensibly formed and presented.
Edit: I've found the negrito issue tricky to research tbh.

I don't think the sensitivity about race issues is much more than say north america or many other european countries tbh.

Either way this debate is not in any way a case of over sensitivity.

Blatter's comments were outrages imo and I would hope they would be condemned everywhere.

That's a bit harsh, he is a decent poster. :pac::pac::D

Fuhrer · 17-11-2011 06:06PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Go back and read the points made earlier on today and how the debate has evolved rather than jumping into the pool with your shoes on.

You mean your point about how Italians dive so its ok for Saurez to say racist things?

I wouldnt consider that to be the debate evolving.

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 06:06PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I would be interested in those types of articles. Because of the fact that the whole discourse on racism in the latin world is so stunted I would be interested in any opinions from there that are sensibly formed and presented.
Edit: I've found the negrito issue tricky to research tbh.

I don't think the sensitivity about race issues is much more than say north america or many other european countries tbh.

Either way this debate is not in any way a case of over sensitivity.

Blatter's comments were outrages imo and I would hope they would be condemned everywhere.

Ditto, heres the article i took the images from earlier, while the article itself isnt bulky, i found all the comments interesting (you may need google translate for the Spanish comments), i dont have the others saved but i will dig out a few later if i have more time.

http://davidlida.com/?p=231

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 06:07PM

Fuhrer wrote: »

You mean your point about how Italians dive so its ok for Saurez to say racist things?

I wouldnt consider that to be the debate evolving.

Clearly you wouldnt because you havent bothered your hole to go back to the comments made earlier than that today.

Fuhrer · 17-11-2011 06:10PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Clearly you wouldnt because you havent bothered your hole to go back to the comments made earlier than that today.

Why would I bother?

I saw someone trying to equate Racism with Italians diving and knew straight away the relentlessly moronic logic that was behind it wasn't worth taking seriously.

Pro. F · 17-11-2011 06:11PM

bruschi wrote: »

thats what it come down to right now though on any information that is in the public domain. Was it ignorance on Suraezs part and a cultural misunderstanding, or was he being a racist? as you say, you dont know what the FA will do, nor do I. It does make for an interesting debate (at very few times tho on here!).

Yep I agree. It's all interesting stuff.

bruschi wrote: »

I have been in South America a good while, and especailly in places like Bolivia and that, its not as PC as it is here, not by a long shot. they dont see anything wrong with certain phrases like that. its not meant maliciously or condescending. its just like calling a lad with red hair Rusty. friend of mine is a bit podgy, and they would call him 'gordo', which literally means fat, but they werent saying it in an offensive way, it was just a playful name they called him.

its like Des said above with us being called Paddy. at times, that wouldnt bother me, but it is all about context. If some one was in a heated argument and said 'you thick paddy', then I'd be upset over it. but I played aussie rules for a bit in Australia, and an opposing player said 'f.k off Paddy' after I tackled him. but he wasnt being racist over it, it was just something being said on the field of play. and without being too Sepp Blatterish over it, we shook hands after and went our way. but someone else could have easily taken offence to it, and in fairness to the lad, he wasnt being malicious about it. like I said, context is the key thing, and the use of the words and Suarezs train of thought. but no one here will know those particular things about this.

I lived in Spain for a while and I found the same kind of thing there too. They just don't see racism as an issue when slagging. Sure remember before the Beijing Olympics and the Spanish basketball team posed for a photo where they all made the Chinese eyes. And it was meant to be seen by Chinese people. They just didn't understand that there was an issue. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a casual attitude towards racism there. I would say that it more points to that actually being the case.

Imo the whole Aussies calling us Paddy's and latins calling fat lads gordo is different because they don't go hand in hand with discrimination and race relations problems. It might be personaly hurtful, but it isn't as serious an issue and it generally doesn't correlate with discriminatory behaviour. Racist stuff generally does.

It is possible that race relations are sweet in the latin world and racial discrimination is so low and that what might be termed as language with racist undertones in other parts of the world just isn't an issue there. But from the evidence I have seen, racial discrimination in the latin world is as bad as anywhere.

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 06:18PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Feck you, you Bristolian Brummie by way of bogland and Dublin.:pac:

Des and I provided a little bit of light banter that was kind of on topic at the same time.

You on the other hand had the gall to put up a well thought out post earlier that made a hell of a lot of sense. For shame sir, for shame.

I take offence to being called a Dubliner/From Dublin/Jackeen. :pac:

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 06:19PM

Fuhrer wrote: »

Why would I bother?

I saw someone trying to equate Racism with Italians diving and knew straight away the relentlessly moronic logic that was behind it wasn't worth taking seriously.

.

Kess73 · 17-11-2011 06:43PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I take offence to being called a Dubliner/From Dublin/Jackeen. :pac:

I take offence at the claim I said jackeen or from Dublin, when I said by way of Dublin.

I would never call someone a Dubliner, but I must point out that at the same time some of my best friends are Dubliners.:D

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 06:49PM

A few more experts have their say.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/17/sport/soccer-word-controversy/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

flahavaj · 17-11-2011 06:58PM

A key question is whether "negrito" has only positive connotations in Uruguay or whether it can be meant in a disparaging way too.

If it is the latter the Suarez can hardly complain for being taken to task for using a term he knows to be derogatory towards black people.

Any information that could clear this up would be helpful. Wiki says it can be used both ways but its hardly the most robust source.

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 07:17PM

flahavaj wrote: »

A key question is whether "negrito" has only positive connotations in Uruguay or whether it can be meant in a disparaging way too.

If it is the latter the Suarez can hardly complain for being taken to task for using a term he knows to be derogatory towards black people.

Any information that could clear this up would be helpful. Wiki says it can be used both ways but its hardly the most robust source.

Did you read that article above?, anyway, i found this bit interesting.

In Uruguay, the meaning is clear, said U.S. radio talk show host Fernando Espuelas, who originally hails from the South American country.
"It's not a slur whatsoever," said Espuelas, whose show often addresses racism in the Latino community. "It's a term of endearment. You definitely would not use that if you were angry. It would sound ridiculous."

flahavaj · 17-11-2011 07:22PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Did you read that article above?, anyway, i found this bit interesting.

In Uruguay, the meaning is clear, said U.S. radio talk show host Fernando Espuelas, who originally hails from the South American country.
"It's not a slur whatsoever," said Espuelas, whose show often addresses racism in the Latino community. "It's a term of endearment. You definitely would not use that if you were angry. It would sound ridiculous."

I couldn't get the link to work for some reason.

While that may work in Suarez' favour, you would have to question why he would use the word during an angry exchange between two players who were at one another's throats the whole game?

Again all we can do is specualtae as to what Suarez' intention was and exactly how much knowledge the man actually had at the time of the connotations of the word he was using.

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 07:32PM

flahavaj wrote: »

I couldn't get the link to work for some reason.

While that may work in Suarez' favour, you would have to question why he would use the word during an angry exchange between two players who were at one another's throats the whole game?

Again all we can do is specualtae as to what Suarez' intention was and exactly how much knowledge the man actually had at the time of the connotations of the word he was using.

Its just a link to a CNN article from today, strange, opens up fine for me.

greendom · 17-11-2011 07:33PM

Surely context is everything - if he did say it, how could it possibly be a term of endearment bearing in mind they were at each others throats for most of the game?

Handsome Bob · 17-11-2011 07:38PM

greendom wrote: »

Surely context is everything - if he did say it, how could it possibly be a term of endearment bearing in mind they were at each others throats for most of the game?

Have you ever used a term of endearment to wind someone up who is already quite agitated?

amiable · 17-11-2011 07:40PM

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Have you ever used a term of endearment to wind someone up who is already quite agitated?

Listen buddy, what's it to you?

Will I Amnt · 17-11-2011 07:41PM

flahavaj wrote: »

A key question is whether "negrito" has only positive connotations in Uruguay or whether it can be meant in a disparaging way too.

If it is the latter the Suarez can hardly complain for being taken to task for using a term he knows to be derogatory towards black people.

Any information that could clear this up would be helpful. Wiki says it can be used both ways but its hardly the most robust source.

There was an Argentinian fella on off the ball last night and he said it can be a friendly term or very offensive depending on the context.

One of the presenters put forward the point that there was nothing friendly about their altercation and he agreed it didn't bode well for Suarez.

Maybe it is a bit different in Uraguay,they never brought that up.

flahavaj · 17-11-2011 07:42PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Its just a link to a CNN article from today, strange, opens up fine for me.

Its probably my laptop, it has an aversion to certain sites for some reason - never lets me read Daily Mail articles either (thankfully :pac:).

Aidric · 17-11-2011 07:42PM

Kess73 wrote: »

To paraphrase the great Phil Lynott somewhat, what Irish lass would not like to have some Scouse in them.:pac:

Anne Doyle, apparently. Hates scousers.

Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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