Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

_blank_ · 17-11-2011 04:27PM

cambo2008 wrote: »

The difference is wearing a bikini would be offensive to that culture whereas wearing a burkha or whatever in the UK is not.
That's the whole point being made.

he knows that, but he's pretending not to.

niallo27 · 17-11-2011 04:44PM

cambo2008 wrote: »

The difference is wearing a bikini would be offensive to that culture whereas wearing a burkha or whatever in the UK is not.
That's the whole point being made.

Yes but how is wearing a burkha following the social codes of the uk.

curry-muff · 17-11-2011 04:47PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Yes but how is wearing a burkha following the social codes of the uk.

Because you can wear what the fúck you want in the UK.

niallo27 · 17-11-2011 04:51PM

curry-muff wrote: »

Because you can wear what the fúck you want in the UK.

Exactly so why the **** does Suarez have to follow the uk social codes, if every other foreigner doesn't have to.

Pro. F · 17-11-2011 04:53PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I have done no such thing.

It isnt a nonsense argument to explain cultural difference in other terms.

It is a nonsense argument imo to equate these two cultural differences when the offense caused by one would be minimal or non existent, whereas the offense caused by the other would be extreme.

daithijjj wrote: »

The whole foundation of the debate between Suarez/Evra is now seemingly rooted in exactly this type of cultural difference. You have kept holding this line of debatable acceptability when on another continent it seems to be the opposite in many cases. Why dont you accept this notion of possible language barrier and cultural difference, is it impossible for folk to think outside of their own cultural bubble?

I have accepted it as a possibility that this is a purely innocent cultural difference issue. However, based on the evidence in the link that #15 provided originally and that I showed to you, I do find that possibility unlikely. That is not failing to think outside of my cultural bubble, it is an examination of the latin and latin american culture with regard to this point. Maybe my examination isn't thorough enough, cool lets debate it then. But don't pretend I have ignored the culture differences.

The term 'negrito' is of course of debatable acceptability. I have shown you a link to an expert in afro latin american identity explaining how the whole concept of the word is of dubious acceptability and how the whole dialogue of what is and isn't racist in latin america is stunted, or even nonexistent, anyway. The fact that some/many latin americans don't have a problem with it in no way proves that it isn't based in an unthinkingly racist attitude.

#15 · 17-11-2011 05:00PM

daithijjj wrote: »

How is it a ridiculous example?, its a perfectly good example of local culture turning a blind eye to cheating and conning the ref and equally a perfectly good example of cultural difference. How the fook could anyone explain the career of Berlusconi without this cultural difference?.

You are looking at it arseways.

Calling someone a ''little black'' is offensive in England.
To draw a parallel, you would have to give an example of an immigrant also causing offence in Italy.

Displaying sportsmanship is not offensive in Italy. They might not be too bothered either way, but they're not offended by it.

curry-muff · 17-11-2011 05:00PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Exactly so why the **** does Suarez have to follow the uk social codes, if every other foreigner doesn't have to.

Because there are social codes, and there aren't any laws against wearing Burkas, pretty simple really :rolleyes:

#15 · 17-11-2011 05:03PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Exactly so why the **** does Suarez have to follow the uk social codes, if every other foreigner doesn't have to.

A woman wearing a burka is following the social code, i.e. by taking advantage of social norms that allow people to wear what they want.

Did you actually think about the point you just made? i.e. Immigrants should be allowed address people in racially sensitive/offensive terms because Muslim women wear burkas. Have you any idea of how fúcking stupid that is?

niallo27 · 17-11-2011 05:03PM

curry-muff wrote: »

Because there are social codes, and there aren't any laws against wearing Burkas, pretty simple really :rolleyes:

Is there a law against calling someone a negrito.

PHB · 17-11-2011 05:06PM

Mod Note:

Lads, cop on for god sake. Jesus. Any more utter drivel will be dealt with harshly.

#15 · 17-11-2011 05:07PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Is there a law against calling someone a negrito.

In the UK?

Yes, the Public Order Act 1986.

niallo27 · 17-11-2011 05:11PM

#15 wrote: »

In the UK?

Yes, the Public Order Act 1986.

Why hasnt Suarez being arrested so.

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 05:16PM

Pro. F wrote: »

It is a nonsense argument imo to equate these two cultural differences when the offense caused by one would be minimal or non existent, whereas the offense caused by the other would be extreme.

I have accepted it as a possibility that this is a purely innocent cultural difference issue. However, based on the evidence in the link that #15 provided originally and that I showed to you, I do find that possibility unlikely. That is not failing to think outside of my cultural bubble, it is an examination of the latin and latin american culture with regard to this point. Maybe my examination isn't thorough enough, cool lets debate it then. But don't pretend I have ignored the culture differences.

The term 'negrito' is of course of debatable acceptability. I have shown you a link to an expert in afro latin american identity explaining how the whole concept of the word is of dubious acceptability and how the whole dialogue of what is and isn't racist in latin america is stunted, or even nonexistent, anyway. The fact that some/many latin americans don't have a problem with it in no way proves that it isn't based in an unthinkingly racist attitude.

Im happy to bow out of this circular debate in fairness, said my bit, il dig out plenty of other blogs and reports with comments from plenty of contributors in those sections if you want to see some other angles of it, journalists from Mexico, Uruguay, Argentina etc, ive read plenty before i made any comment on this thread, but i think we get the jist of where this is going to end up.

We happen to live in a part of the world where debates of this nature are at their most sensitive, just look to the coverage Blatter is getting today, his comments barely even make the news outside Uk and Ireland.

YouTookMyName · 17-11-2011 05:18PM

Leading figures in soccer call on Blatter to step down after defending racism.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/17/sport/football/football-blatter-racism-reaction-nov17/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

(CNN) -- Leading figures in the world of soccer on Thursday blasted FIFA president Sepp Blatter for controversial remarks he made on racism in an interview with CNN World Sport.

The head of world football told Pedro Pinto there is no on-field racism in football and that any player who has been abused should simply shake hands with his opponent at the end of the match and move on.

Manchester United Rio's Ferdinand, a former England captain, expressed his outrage on Twitter, blasting Blatter's comments as "so condescending it's almost laughable."

The chief executive of England's Professional Footballers' Association, Gordon Taylor, told CNN that Blatter should resign.

Pedro Pinto: My crazy day with Sepp

"He should step down," he said. "This is the straw that broke the camel's back. We need football to set a good example, so this is inexcusable.

"We're working to eradicate racism on the pitch, and eradicate any reference to the color of anybody's skin. Racism is so divisive -- it creates a venomous culture."

The Swiss was re-elected unopposed as the head of football's governing body in June after his main rival was suspended amid corruption allegations. The bidding process for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups was also dogged by bribery allegations.

Soon after Blatter gave his interview to CNN on Wednesday, his position appeared to be undermined when the English Football Association charged Liverpool's Luis Suarez with racism toward a fellow playerSuarez allegedly taunted Manchester United's French defender Patrice Evra. Suarez, from Uruguay, denies the claims.

London's Metropolitan Police are also investigating allegations of racism against Chelsea and England captain John Terry. He denies claims he racially abused the brother of Rio Ferdinand, Anton, during a Premier League match.

Blatter: No on-field racism in football

The UK sports minister Hugh Robertson echoed calls for Blatter to quit. "Racism is a criminal offense in this country and anybody who is caught will face criminal sanctions," he told CNN.

"What Sepp Blatter has said, in this country, is just completely wrong as well as morally indefensible. This is the latest episode that calls into question whether this man should be the head of world football. For the sake of the game, he should go.

"We have been consistent in our calls for improved governance at FIFA and this underlines the need for that once more. We must never be complacent in our efforts to tackle racism. There is no place or excuse for it either on or off the pitch."

The "Kick It Out" group, who campaign against racism in football, said Blatter's comments were worryingly out of touch.

"Shaking hands to compensate for a racial slur is not what the game has signed up to, and trivializes the work of campaigns like Kick It Out."

Blatter clarified his comments in a statement on FIFA's website that carried a picture of him embracing Tokyo Sexwale, a prominent South African politician who has campaigned against racism.

Ferdinand responded to the picture on his Twitter account, saying: "Fifa clear up the Blatter comments with a pic of him posing with a black man..I need the hand covering eyes symbol!!"

Blatter comments spark Twitter fury

Today, Blatter responded to Ferdinand directly on Twitter, writing: "The 'black man' as you call him has a name: Tokyo Sexwale. He has done tremendous work against racism and apartheid in Africa.

"We have done several joint activities to raise awareness on the struggle against racism in South Africa. FIFA has a long standing and proud record in the area of anti-discrimination which will continue."

Later Ferdinand replied: "To say what you said about racism in football spoke volumes of your ignorance to the subject. If we want to stamp out racism in society a football pitch is a good place to start -- loved by billions of people around the world (sic)."

In an exclusive interview with CNN, Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore said racism was still prevalent in football, but the top tier in the English game was fighting hard to eradicate it.

He said: "Racism certainly still exists in football, albeit reduced, but there are still issues, of course there are, and we're not complacent about that.

"But I think it's a bit of a stretch to say it doesn't exist because it does."

"The English game had led and been at the forefront of reducing incidents of racist behavior -- it's totally unacceptable, everybody in the game in England understands it is totally unacceptable.

"We have that reputation, as far as I'm aware, that reputation is still intact but the game will deal with whatever is thrown against it. There is no place for it in football, let alone in England, and we will strive to eradicate it."

Sports journalist and London Evening Standard columnist Mihir Bose said Blatter's views demonstrated that he is out of touch with the modern game.

He told CNN "This won't topple him. It will damage him further but you could argue he was damaged goods anyway.

"Blatter wants to be a showman, he wants to be in the public eye ... but these comments are incredibly insensitive and crass."

Bose said that although great strides have been made in the fight against racism in football, there is still much work to do.

"Much of the racist attitudes that saw bananas being thrown onto the field at black players has gone, but there is still a pervasive racism," he added.

"White players feel racism has been conquered but there remains a feeling of discrimination in the game which is why black players have reacted with outrage at Blatter's comments.

"They feel there is still not a level playing field -- they feel all they have fought for over the years has been devalued."

Can European soccer stamp out racism?

There have also been several instances of racism in European football this year.

Former Brazil player Roberto Carlos walked off the pitch during a game in Russia when a banana was thrown at him and Chelsea's Israeli midfielder Yossi Benayoun was taunted during a game in Malaysia.

#15 · 17-11-2011 05:18PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Why hasnt Suarez being arrested so.

We don't even know what Suarez said, nor what intent he had. I am also not a police officer in the UK, so I have no idea about the case.

What I do know though, is that your claim that someone should be allowed use racially abusive terms because Muslim women wear burkas is ridiculous.

Fuhrer · 17-11-2011 05:19PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Im happy to bow out of this circular debate in fairness, said my bit, il dig out plenty of other blogs and reports with comments from plenty of contributors in those sections if you want to see some other angles of it, journalists from Mexico, Uruguay, Argentina etc, ive read plenty before i made any comment on this thread, but i think we get the jist of where this is going to end up.

We happen to live in a part of the world where debates of this nature are at their most sensitive, just look to the coverage Blatter is getting today, his comments barely even make the news outside Uk and Ireland.

So, Evras just being overly sensitive to someone calling him little negro?

Cameron Poe · 17-11-2011 05:21PM

Even if he did call him "negrito" as opposed to what he most likely called him, it's probably fair to say that the sentiment was the same.

He doesn't exactly have a nice guy persona on the pitch with the biting and cheating so I find it hard to believe that people are so staunchly defending him.

amiable · 17-11-2011 05:22PM

Fuhrer wrote: »

So, Evras just being overly sensitive to someone calling him little negro?

Where is this proof he called him negro?

invinciblePRSTV · 17-11-2011 05:25PM

If/when Terry and Suarez are found guilty of racial abuse by the FA then i hope an example is made of both of them. 6 month bans from the game and massive fines would send the message to players - whether they're local English lads or foreigners coming from a different "culture" (via the Netherlands of course where last i checked, racial abuse on the pitch isn't part and parcel of the game) - that racism just isn't on.

If the FA do nothing more then deliver a slap on the wrists to these guys it would make a mockery of the kick racism out of football campaign. Sadly this is what most likely will happen.

17-11-2011 05:26PM

Cameron Poe wrote: »

Even if he did call him "negrito" as opposed to what he most likely called him, it's probably fair to say that the sentiment was the same.

He doesn't exactly have a nice guy persona on the pitch with the biting and cheating so I find it hard to believe that people are so staunchly defending him.

He most likely called him what?

Is this all hear say?

Won't even comment properly on your second paragraph, it's ridiculous.

mike65 · 17-11-2011 05:26PM

NOBODY ON THIS THREAD KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THIS CASE.

Please post with that thought at the forefront of your craniums.

MrStuffins · 17-11-2011 05:29PM

Muslim women have the right to practice their religion so everyone should have the right to break the law by partaking in racial abuse???

LOL!!

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 05:29PM

#15 wrote: »

You are looking at it arseways.

Calling someone a ''little black'' is offensive in England.
To draw a parallel, you would have to give an example of an immigrant also causing offence in Italy.

Displaying sportsmanship is not offensive in Italy. They might not be too bothered either way, but they're not offended by it.

Im sorry but you misunderstand the point. The discussion had been going off on a tangent a bit. Cultural difference and racism are separate entities, the fact that they collide in the Suarez/Evra debate was not the point i was making, i was just distinguishing cultural difference on its own as an entity. At no point did i ever say 'negrito' did not have racist undertones. The only distinction made by me is that in a different culture, the veracity of those undertones mean a much different thing to the veracity of what people can sometimes interpret what they are in another culture.

Fuhrer · 17-11-2011 05:31PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Im sorry but you misunderstand the point. The discussion had been going off on a tangent a bit. Cultural difference and racism are separate entities, the fact that they collide in the Suarez/Evra debate was not the point i was making, i was just distinguishing cultural difference on its own as an entity. At no point did i ever say 'negrito' did not have racist undertones. The only distinction made by me is that in a different culture, the veracity of those undertones mean a much different thing to the veracity of what people can sometimes interpret what they are in another culture.

In other cultures Racism and Antisemitism are accepted. Saying its a cultural difference doesn't mean it wasn't racist as well.

17-11-2011 05:34PM

Any word on the Terry incident ?

I'd say he's delighted the Suarez case is stealing the limelight

_blank_ · 17-11-2011 05:35PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Any word on the Terry incident ?

I'd say he's delighted the Suarez case is stealing the limelight

If you give it the same timeframe to get to the same stage, perhaps there will be "word".

#15 · 17-11-2011 05:35PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Im sorry but you misunderstand the point. The discussion had been going off on a tangent a bit. Cultural difference and racism are separate entities, the fact that they collide in the Suarez/Evra debate was not the point i was making, i was just distinguishing cultural difference on its own as an entity. At no point did i ever say 'negrito' did not have racist undertones. The only distinction made by me is that in a different culture, the veracity of those undertones mean a much different thing to the veracity of what people can sometimes interpret what they are in another culture.

Yeah, but to take cultural difference on its own, you would have to provide two examples where that difference causes offence.

Not diving doesn't cause offence in Italy, even when you take cultural factors into account.
It would have been a better comparison if you picked an example of something that is acceptable to Des (and Irish people in general) but not acceptable in Italian culture.

I agree with your point wrt the intensity of meaning in different cultures.

daithijjj · 17-11-2011 05:37PM

Fuhrer wrote: »

In other cultures Racism and Antisemitism are accepted. Saying its a cultural difference doesn't mean it wasn't racist as well.

Do you know cultures where people are racist or antisemetic to their own families/spouses/children? like the word negrito is used?.

Fuhrer · 17-11-2011 05:38PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Do you know cultures where people are racist or antisemetic to their own families/spouses/children? like the word negrito is used?.

Racist to their own children?

What in the **** are you talking about?

17-11-2011 05:40PM

Des wrote: »

If you give it the same timeframe to get to the same stage, perhaps there will be "word".

The Suarez incident isn't clear to anyone(on the outside), hence this hideous superthread.

The Terry incident appears more clearcut.

Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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