Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

amiable

Fuhrer wrote: »

Just part of their programming


Evra is a hot head, Evra is an asshole, Evra is always making false racism allegations


They lie and lie enough, sooner or later they believe their own stupidity themselves.

Wouldnt be surprised if Mr. Alan was on later on saying how its Evras fault Suarez repeatedly called him a little negro because he was born black.

Well there is this
http://www.tribalfootball.com/man-utds-evra-arsenal-players-just-jealous-245456

And this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/8658130/Patrice-Evra-urges-Arsenals-Samir-Nasri-to-reject-Manchester-City-and-join-Manchester-United.html

And this
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/evra-the-arsenal-way-of-playing-vs-5-years-with-no-trophies/

And this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1229815/France-star-Patrice-Evra-offers-Ireland-World-Cup-replay--PlayStation.html

Oh and there is this
http://1click.indiatimes.com/article/0chRfb16aB8ky?q=Cape+Town

And how could i forget his unreliable evidence to the FA
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1097017/We-dont-believe-FAs-damning-verdict-Evra-United-Battle-Bridge.html

Of course i'm just out to get him

bruschi

Pro. F wrote: »

The fact that the word may be culturally acceptable in Uruguay is only relevant as a mitigating factor. Suarez was in England at the time, the onus is on him to abide by the social codes there, not the ones from home.

but the point here, was Suarez being racist when he called Evra whatever he did? did he say 'negrito' as a condescendning racist term. Now granted, Evra got upset because he felt it was racist, but in Suarez's mind, (which no one is going to know but him) was it in a racist context? If the phrase is culturally acceptable to him, he needs to learn that it isnt in England.

It could be a case he was not being racist, but used what sounds like a racist word. Again, what seems to be perceived as a miscommunication and language/cultural differences between the players.

Suarez should, if he hastn already, apologise to Evra and explain he wasnt being racist. However, if the FA do have evidence he used worse phrases, then the book should be thrown at him.

One thing that is certain though, is that because Evra went public straight away without any of the back up he claimed he had, Suarez will be tainted for the rest of his career, regardless if he is found innocent or guilty.

amiable

Fuhrer wrote: »

Didnt Saurez kill JFK that one time?

Cool story bro

greendom

And it's not as if you can put it down to a genuine misunderstanding of a newcomer (unless negrito or its Dutch equivalent is acceptable in Holland)

copacetic

Des wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

If you move to a place, you make it your business to find out what is and is not accepted.

For instance, a Western Woman moving to the middle east is not going to go around in the sun wearing a bikini and nothing else. She'd be offending pretty much all of the natives, and could probably be arrested.

Same for Suarez in this instance.

Or some English guy moving to Ireland isn't going to go around his workplace calling everyone Paddy's or Mick's, as I'm sure Kess will back me up on. You just don't do that.

Of course you have to adapt to local culture.

Have you ever heard the phrase "When in Rome..."?

Heh, so now people are using the arguments of the racist British far right that people need to integrate or 'go back where they came from' to advance anti racism in football.

You would think they crazy stuff people come out with on the soccer forum to suit their own agenda could no longer surprise you but that takes the biscuit.

Kess73

Des wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

If you move to a place, you make it your business to find out what is and is not accepted.

For instance, a Western Woman moving to the middle east is not going to go around in the sun wearing a bikini and nothing else. She'd be offending pretty much all of the natives, and could probably be arrested.

Same for Suarez in this instance.

Or some English guy moving to Ireland isn't going to go around his workplace calling everyone Paddy's or Mick's, as I'm sure Kess will back me up on. You just don't do that.

Of course you have to adapt to local culture.

Have you ever heard the phrase "When in Rome..."?

You calling me "some English guy", Paddy?:pac:


Actually I know a guy from London who did just that when he first moved to Ireland. Everyone was a Paddy, Mick, or Spudmuncher to him. He soon learned not to do so.:D


I think that footballers don't live in the same world as the rest of us though. They often live in their own little bubble and don't do much to try and fit into a new area or country. But I totally agree with you on it generally being the right thing to do to get to know the culture of where you are living, and not to go out of your way to cause friction.

citytillidie

amiable wrote: »

Well there is this
http://www.tribalfootball.com/man-utds-evra-arsenal-players-just-jealous-245456

And this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/8658130/Patrice-Evra-urges-Arsenals-Samir-Nasri-to-reject-Manchester-City-and-join-Manchester-United.html

And this
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/evra-the-arsenal-way-of-playing-vs-5-years-with-no-trophies/

And this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1229815/France-star-Patrice-Evra-offers-Ireland-World-Cup-replay--PlayStation.html

Oh and there is this
http://1click.indiatimes.com/article/0chRfb16aB8ky?q=Cape+Town

And how could i forget his unreliable evidence to the FA
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1097017/We-dont-believe-FAs-damning-verdict-Evra-United-Battle-Bridge.html

Of course i'm just out to get him

Dont forget the kissing of the badge in front of the Liverpool fans which should be investigated by the FA but seems to have passed them by. Also the very dreadful play acting when he was tapped on the knee by Luis

_blank_

copacetic wrote: »

Heh, so now people are using the arguments of the racist British far right that people need to integrate or 'go back where they came from' to advance anti racism in football.

You would think they crazy stuff people come out with on the soccer forum to suit their own agenda could no longer surprise you but that takes the biscuit.

What?

What are you on about?

Are you not able to read or what? I didn't say that, nowhere have I said that, and I don't know what kind of twisted logic you are using to put those words in my post.

I'm genuinely baffled here.

niallo27

Pro. F wrote: »

No it's not. Obviously it is not. You are funny.

Why would two foreigners in a foreign country have to follow the social codes of that country.

Blatter

niallo27 wrote: »

Why are all the Mancs in here repeatly using the word Negro

Kess73 wrote: »

Because it sounds more damning, regardless of the fact that the only word that has been mentioned so far is not actually that word.

It is the same type of subtle character assassination, with a touch of strawmanning added in imho, that Des rightly said that some LFC supporter are doing with regards to Evra.

Not true.

Evra and Suarez may centre on the nuances of Spanish, in particular the frequent use of the word negro in many and varied connotations.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2055456/John-Terrys-future-stake-Anton-Ferdinand-race-row--Martin-Samuel.html

But the Mirror understands the row centres around the Spanish word “negro” having a different meaning culturally, and not being as offensive in that language as it is in English.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/PFA-bid-to-make-peace-in-racism-row-between-Liverpools-Luiz-Suarez-and-Manchester-Uniteds-Patrice-Evra-has-been-blocked-article822175.html

...according to reports over the weekend, centres around the use of the word 'negro'

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/early-doors/article/354269/



The use of the word negro has been suggested in the press, although as I already stated, the reported use of the word negrito has been more widespread.

There is absolutely no character assassination on my part.

_blank_

niallo27 wrote: »

Why would two foreigners in a foreign country have to follow the social codes of that country.

You know why.

You are pretending to not know why.

Kess73

Blatter wrote: »

Not true.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2055456/John-Terrys-future-stake-Anton-Ferdinand-race-row--Martin-Samuel.html




http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/PFA-bid-to-make-peace-in-racism-row-between-Liverpools-Luiz-Suarez-and-Manchester-Uniteds-Patrice-Evra-has-been-blocked-article822175.html



http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/early-doors/article/354269/



The use of the word negro has been suggested in the press, although as I already stated, the reported use of the word negrito has been more widespread.

There is absolutely no character assassination on my part.

The word negro has been banded about with nothing to back it up. Just because some tabloid runs with it with nothing to back it up does not mean it is no less weak an arguement for supporters to follow suit.


As for character assassination being done by your good self, you would not be one of the ones I would have in mind for that to be honest based on what I have seen of your posting over months and months and based on debating other issues with you in the past.

But I do find it annoying that even you have the word negro popping up in your posts over and over when there is no concrete proof that the word was used. I don't think that you personally are trying to throw muck, but the more people that post as if Negro was defo said, the more that will believe that is the story, and there are plenty on this forum who won't try to think things through before posting.

If the FA come out and announce that the word was the one used, then fair enough people can say that Suarez said it, but right now there seems to be a lot of people happy to say that it is what Suarez said despite a total lack of proof.

To me that is no better than the LFC supporters who are coming out and saying that Evra is defo lying and that Evra made 3,547 claims of racist abuse towards him in the past.

Kess73

I'm more insulted that Des said "some English guy", and then mentioned me straight after saying it.:pac:

_blank_

Kess73 wrote: »

The word negro has been banded about with nothing to back it up..

So is the word Negrito, but Liverpool fans seem happy enough to accept that word, because it is seemingly "less offensive" I think is the reason for that.

_blank_

Kess73 wrote: »

I'm more insulted that Des said "some English guy", and then mentioned me straight after saying it.:pac:

Apologies

"Some Scouser"

Pro. F

bruschi wrote: »

but the point here, was Suarez being racist when he called Evra whatever he did? did he say 'negrito' as a condescendning racist term. Now granted, Evra got upset because he felt it was racist, but in Suarez's mind, (which no one is going to know but him) was it in a racist context? If the phrase is culturally acceptable to him, he needs to learn that it isnt in England.

It could be a case he was not being racist, but used what sounds like a racist word. Again, what seems to be perceived as a miscommunication and language/cultural differences between the players.

Suarez should, if he hastn already, apologise to Evra and explain he wasnt being racist. However, if the FA do have evidence he used worse phrases, then the book should be thrown at him.

One thing that is certain though, is that because Evra went public straight away without any of the back up he claimed he had, Suarez will be tainted for the rest of his career, regardless if he is found innocent or guilty.

The way it looks to me, if Suarez used the word 'negrito' then at the very least he was being culturally/racially insensitive. You have to remember that he wasn't talking to a friend and the conversation/argument was happening during a high tension game.

For it to have been only cultural insensitivity, as opposed to unthinking racism or deliberate racist abuse, it would mean that Suarez has no knowledge of the issues surrounding the word. It would mean that he believes that it is completely acceptable to use for black people who he is not even friendly with, and even in the context of what was probably an argument, or maybe a sledging. Personly I find that a bit far fetched, but I suppose it's possible.

If the FA believe that it is unacceptable language in the context, would Suarez's possible ignorance be enough to save him? I don't know.

Blatter

Kess73 wrote: »

The word negro has been banded about with nothing to back it up. Just because some tabloid runs with it with nothing to back it up does not mean it is no less weak an arguement for supporters to follow suit.


As for character assassination being done by your good self, you would not be one of the ones I would have in mind for that to be honest based on what I have seen of your posting over months and months and based on debating other issues with you in the past.

But I do find it annoying that even you have the word negro popping up in your posts over and over when there is no concrete proof that the word was used. I don't think that you personally are trying to throw muck, but the more people that post as if Negro was defo said, the more that will believe that is the story, and there are plenty on this forum who won't try to think things through before posting.

If the FA come out and announce that the word was the one used, then fair enough people can say that Suarez said it, but right now there seems to be a lot of people happy to say that it is what Suarez said despite a total lack of proof.

To me that is no better than the LFC supporters who are coming out and saying that Evra is defo lying and that Evra made 3,547 claims of racist abuse towards him in the past.

Fair enough, I was careful enough to say 'if' and put /negrito beside it, as I know it's nowhere near fact. It's unfortunate if some interpret it as almost fact.

daithijjj

Des wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

If you move to a place, you make it your business to find out what is and is not accepted.

For instance, a Western Woman moving to the middle east is not going to go around in the sun wearing a bikini and nothing else. She'd be offending pretty much all of the natives, and could probably be arrested.

Same for Suarez in this instance.

Or some English guy moving to Ireland isn't going to go around his workplace calling everyone Paddy's or Mick's, as I'm sure Kess will back me up on. You just don't do that.

Of course you have to adapt to local culture.

Have you ever heard the phrase "When in Rome..."?

You must then be an advocate of cheating and diving to con the ref if you move to Italy?, its part of the culture there to admire 'furbo'.

Kess73

Des wrote: »

Apologies

"Some Scouser"

Scouse Irish actually.:D Was born in Ireland, but the family moved back to Liverpool when I was a nipper. I'm the only mongrel though as my siblings were all born in Liverpool.

May have to get in touch with the FAI and that lovely man John Delaney about your scurrilous, and defamatory remark that suggested I was some English guy.:D

_blank_

daithijjj wrote: »

You must then be an advocate of cheating and diving to con the ref if you move to Italy?, its part of the culture there to admire 'furbo'.

I've never moved to Italy, so I have no idea. Been there once on a holiday though.

I don't get your point though?

I'm not saying someone should totally immerse themselves in a foreign culture, or even live the way the locals do, but I do suggest that if someone moves to another country they at least familiarise themselves with the local etiquette, and not go around offending people out of ignorance.

Again, I suspect you knew what I was getting at, but chose ot use some ridiculous example to try to discredit what I was saying.

Good one, but no cigar I'm afraid.

_blank_

Kess73 wrote: »

Scouse Irish actually.:D

pfffft, what Scouser doesn't have Irish in them. Worse than bleedin Americans.

Pro. F

niallo27 wrote: »

Why would two foreigners in a foreign country have to follow the social codes of that country.

The answers to that question and the whole issue you are trying to generate are too obvious to waste my time with. You have raised and queried the simplest and most braindead of issues on this thread time and again.

You are either pretending to be thick about this (and all the other issues that have come up with you in this thread) in order to win the argument or you just cannot grasp the simplest of concepts and logical conclusions.

Think about it Niallo. If my posts were being addressed by a 12 year old and he was constantly asking me to explain every last little thing I mentioned do you think I would waste my time humouring him? Of course not. I'm not here to help you learn everything that is obvious to normal adults. If you can't work this shìt out for yourself I'm not going to help you.

Kess73

Des wrote: »

pfffft, what Scouser doesn't have Irish in them. Worse than bleedin Americans.

To paraphrase the great Phil Lynott somewhat, what Irish lass would not like to have some Scouse in them.:pac:

daithijjj

Des wrote: »

I've never moved to Italy, so I have no idea. Been there once on a holiday though.

I don't get your point though?

I'm not saying someone should totally immerse themselves in a foreign culture, or even live the way the locals do, but I do suggest that if someone moves to another country they at least familiarise themselves with the local etiquette, and not go around offending people out of ignorance.

Again, I suspect you knew what I was getting at, but chose ot use some ridiculous example to try to discredit what I was saying.

Good one, but no cigar I'm afraid.

Well you did say, "when in Rome....".

How is it a ridiculous example?, its a perfectly good example of local culture turning a blind eye to cheating and conning the ref and equally a perfectly good example of cultural difference. How the fook could anyone explain the career of Berlusconi without this cultural difference?.

niallo27

Des wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

If you move to a place, you make it your business to find out what is and is not accepted.

For instance, a Western Woman moving to the middle east is not going to go around in the sun wearing a bikini and nothing else. She'd be offending pretty much all of the natives, and could probably be arrested.

Same for Suarez in this instance.

Or some English guy moving to Ireland isn't going to go around his workplace calling everyone Paddy's or Mick's, as I'm sure Kess will back me up on. You just don't do that.

Of course you have to adapt to local culture.

Have you ever heard the phrase "When in Rome..."?

So are you saying a woman from the middle east should not wear her normal clothing if she is living in the uk and should adapt local customs and clothing, the woman from a western country would not wear a bikini because she would probaly be killed. If two foreginers were fighting beside me i would not give what social codes they follow.

Pro. F

daithijjj wrote: »

Well you did say, "when in Rome....".

How is it a ridiculous example?, its a perfectly good example of local culture turning a blind eye to cheating and conning the ref and equally a perfectly good example of cultural difference. How the fook could anyone explain the career of Berlusconi without this cultural difference?.

You are trying to equate the offense caused by the use of a word for black people with a very debatable acceptability with the offence caused by not diving in Italy. It is a nonsense argument.

bruschi

Pro. F wrote: »

The way it looks to me, if Suarez used the word 'negrito' then at the very least he was being culturally/racially insensitive. You have to remember that he wasn't talking to a friend and the conversation/argument was happening during a high tension game.

For it to have been only cultural insensitivity, as opposed to unthinking racism or deliberate racist abuse, it would mean that Suarez has no knowledge of the issues surrounding the word. It would mean that he believes that it is completely acceptable to use for black people who he is not even friendly with, and even in the context of what was probably an argument, or maybe a sledging. Personly I find that a bit far fetched, but I suppose it's possible.

If the FA believe that it is unacceptable language in the context, would Suarez's possible ignorance be enough to save him? I don't know.

thats what it come down to right now though on any information that is in the public domain. Was it ignorance on Suraezs part and a cultural misunderstanding, or was he being a racist? as you say, you dont know what the FA will do, nor do I. It does make for an interesting debate (at very few times tho on here!).

I have been in South America a good while, and especailly in places like Bolivia and that, its not as PC as it is here, not by a long shot. they dont see anything wrong with certain phrases like that. its not meant maliciously or condescending. its just like calling a lad with red hair Rusty. friend of mine is a bit podgy, and they would call him 'gordo', which literally means fat, but they werent saying it in an offensive way, it was just a playful name they called him.

its like Des said above with us being called Paddy. at times, that wouldnt bother me, but it is all about context. If some one was in a heated argument and said 'you thick paddy', then I'd be upset over it. but I played aussie rules for a bit in Australia, and an opposing player said 'f.k off Paddy' after I tackled him. but he wasnt being racist over it, it was just something being said on the field of play. and without being too Sepp Blatterish over it, we shook hands after and went our way. but someone else could have easily taken offence to it, and in fairness to the lad, he wasnt being malicious about it. like I said, context is the key thing, and the use of the words and Suarezs train of thought. but no one here will know those particular things about this.

daithijjj

Pro. F wrote: »

You are trying to equate the offense caused by the use of a word with a very debatable acceptability with the offence caused by not diving in Italy. It is a nonsense argument.

I have done no such thing.

It isnt a nonsense argument to explain cultural difference in other terms. The whole foundation of the debate between Suarez/Evra is now seemingly rooted in exactly this type of cultural difference. You have kept holding this line of debatable acceptability when on another continent it seems to be the opposite in many cases. Why dont you accept this notion of possible language barrier and cultural difference, is it impossible for folk to think outside of their own cultural bubble?

_blank_

niallo27 wrote: »

So are you saying a woman from the middle east should not wear her normal clothing if she is living in the uk and should adapt local customs and clothing, the woman from a western country would not wear a bikini because she would probaly be killed. If two foreginers were fighting beside me i would not give what social codes they follow.

No, I'm not saying that, and yuu know I'm not.

You are purposely trolling this thread and trying to get reactions from people by pretending to be stupid and "not getting" people's points.

I don't believe anyone could be as absolutely stupid as you ar eportraying yourself to be, so I can only assume that you are doing it on purpose, and doing it to get a reaction.

That is called Trolling

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

So are you saying a woman from the middle east should not wear her normal clothing if she is living in the uk and should adapt local customs and clothing, the woman from a western country would not wear a bikini because she would probaly be killed.

The difference is wearing a bikini would be offensive to that culture whereas wearing a burkha or whatever in the UK is not.
That's the whole point being made.