Time to burn Greece?

Noreen1 · 10-11-2011 01:58AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Portugal has had a recent change of government as well.

But I don't quite see your point - I doubt any of the electorates voted out the prior government because of applying for and taking the bailout, it was more because of the general mismanagement of the countrys finances which led to the need for a bailout in the first place.
Its hard to bankrupt a country and retain popular support.

I think it was probably both.

In Ireland, for example, there is considerable anger at the fact that we weren't allowed to burn certain bondholders, recently.

I think it is also fair to say that the bailout was the final nail in the FF coffin.

It is also fair to say that people are unhappy at the loss of economic sovereignty resulting from the bailout.

So, it's reasonable to say that people are unhappy with the bailout, for a number of reasons.

It's also very clear that French and German voters are less than thrilled at the idea that their living standards are (perceived to be) at risk.

Hence, there are a lot of European voters who do not approve of the bailouts, for a variety of reasons - yet the bailouts just keep getting bigger, and more "necessary" to protect the Euro.

In short, the markets are pulling the strings, the politicians are the puppets, so what does that make the European electorate?

Whatever it is, it's very far from the ideals of democracy that I was taught about in school, all those years ago - because lately it seems to be "For the Markets, By the Markets, and With the Markets", and the people are nothing more than pawns on the chessboard!

Noreen1 · 10-11-2011 02:01AM

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, FG and Labour didn't oppose the bailout, just particular parts. SF was about the only party that did and got 10%.

True, but did they get 10% because they opposed the Bailout, or because they didn't have what the public accepted as a credible alternative strategy?

beeftotheheels · 10-11-2011 10:28AM

Noreen1 wrote: »

In short, the markets are pulling the strings, the politicians are the puppets, so what does that make the European electorate?

Whatever it is, it's very far from the ideals of democracy that I was taught about in school, all those years ago - because lately it seems to be "For the Markets, By the Markets, and With the Markets", and the people are nothing more than pawns on the chessboard!

Ah but you see things are never as simple as all that.

Who forced the governments to borrow the money? Who put a gun to their heads? No one, but in a number of jurisdictions borrowing money to pay for public services was seen as preferable to either making cuts or increasing taxes. Because it was popular, appealed to the punters and made re-election easier. But now the bond holders want to be repaid. That accounts for a lot of the problems.

Then there's us and Spain, property fires which our politicians threw petrol on until they burnt the whole place down. Because it was popular, appealed to the punters and made re-election easier.

So democracy is a big part of the problem here, democracy to some extent caused this mess.

While the paradigms of finance certainly need to be revisited as a result of this mess I wonder if those around democracy do too.

I often wonder if we'd be better off with some kind of benign dictator model, a proper old school Taoiseach who we elect for life, no party politics. When he or she pops their clogs we get another chance only knowing us we'd probably only then vote for Octogenarians.

Noreen1 · 10-11-2011 12:59PM

I'm all for the principles of Democracy being re-visited - or, possibly more accurately, the party politics aspect of Democracy that usually renders almost half of our representatives very close to powerless in Government.

Having said that, no-one elected FF in the knowledge that they would guarantee the banks, or, for that matter, with any knowledge that there was any problem with the banks.
You could also have quite an interesting debate as to whether socialising private losses was democratic, since the option wasn't put to the electorate, and the Government refused to step down when the depth of public feeling became apparent.

I'm more in favour of the financial system being overhauled, though. The current one is not serving the vast majority of the people very well.

Hence my comment about the people being pawns.
We need to be able to control the banks and the markets in the interests of the population, and the current crisies has made it very obvious that the (unelected) banks and markets control us to a much greater degree than is desireable.

So, generally speaking, we can safely say that there are serious obstacles to Democracy in Europe.
As to the benign dictator, I haven't read about too many of those in the History books. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that.

Scofflaw · 11-11-2011 12:59AM

As to the benign dictator, I haven't read about too many of those in the History books. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that

Singapore...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Noreen1 · 11-11-2011 10:09AM

I've no idea how reliable this site is, and I don't have time to research further right now, but it doesn't sound as if all is rosy in the garden in Singapore, either./

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/01/what-happened-to-singapore-the-land-of-plenty/

Scofflaw · 11-11-2011 05:21PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

I've no idea how reliable this site is, and I don't have time to research further right now, but it doesn't sound as if all is rosy in the garden in Singapore, either./

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/01/what-happened-to-singapore-the-land-of-plenty/

I'm not sure there's anywhere that's completely rosy, but none of the problems described there are the particular outcome of Singapore's method of government.

I'm not arguing particularly for benign dictatorship, but it's not an impossible system by any means. Certainly the (ancient) Greeks, after their experiments with a variety of systems, felt that when it was achievable it was a pretty good system, despite the obvious drawbacks.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Damian_ir · 16-11-2011 05:48AM

... mistaken post

Damian_ir · 24-11-2011 08:45AM

Business with guns and arms in Greece.

http://www.onalert.gr/default.php?pname=Article&catid=2&art_id=10088

I used google translate it , so excuse me for any mistakes.

The game equipment never ends in Ellada.Isos for some time to ... but after xapostainei to ... and this glory takes. Can the "great powers" of equipment, many of which are the lenders, we can pretend to be indifferent and declare by people in Greece that "have written off Greece", but other facts suggest. And first of all, they follow the doctrine that says that "crisis creates opportunities." Yesterday's contact MoD D. Avramopoulos, the U.S. ambassador in Athens N. Smith, brought again to the fore the intention of the U.S. to "give "weapon systems in Greece. First of all tanks Abrams.Ypothesi that occupied Long the General Staff and the previous leadership of MoD, in P. Beglitis. Discussions and thoughts minted "knife" when the subject has occupied the Austrian parliament, with the rationale that "the Greeks can not be asked to lend and at the same time to buy weapons." The then government spokesman G. Mosialos with a categorical statement said that "Abrams on there." Declaration had convinced everyone except some in the General Staff. "donated" there is of course even though the Americans allegedly willing to give us the tanks at extremely low prices, since both aim to "break" the German monopoly Armata potential of Greece. The Americans see through the present "opportunities" in Ellada.Mia is a possible modernization of F-16, modernization of P-3 and is sure to come back and modernize helicopters Apache. The Germans are worried Germnaoi are shown as completely indifferent for the "Greek armaments market," strongly concerned for the U.S. firm penetration and as the theme was "hot", asking here and there to learn leptomereies.Profanos will continue to do so. Berlin has .... Writing off Greece, as they say, cares about the DAC, which will also find the opposite of Amerikanous.Pou due to F-16 and Lockheed Martin, have lead to the privatization process of the company. The Germans did not hide their discomfort to maneuver "to avoid" three Greek governments to pressure to buy Eurofighter. Simitis at KYSEA of his time, had given a decision on purchase of at least 60 aeroskafon.Den never materialized, despite the "renewal" of promises by Karamanlis and Papandreou. And this seems not forgive us. The Eurofighter, playing perhaps his last paper in India, where Germany is chosen will receive more than 12 billion! If you do not do it though? And do not forget that Merkel faces and elections. Up close and France 's Sarkozy may be furious at the decision of the Papandreou dimospsifisma, but also angry with the final "freeze" the market four to six frigates Fremm, from Greece. On the other hand proopiki's friendship with Ntasso in pushing for the sale of fighter Rafale, which until now have remained unclaimed in the ...! Neither one have not been able to export the French and await the decision of India and Brazil. In the first have of the Eurofighter Merkel and Brazil the F-18 of Obama. So the chances are great epikratisisden. All this puzzle shows that the "great powers" of equipment, when they say that "have written off Greece" do not tell the whole truth. Remain and wait for trying to "plasaristoun" in the best possible thesi.Otan will get some light from the crack will occur. Our history has shown many times. READ THE HISTORY, ECONOMICS AND WEAPONS IN GREECE READ STILL INSISTS ON THE AMERICAN ABRAMS.DEITE VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFN79wuuTy8

Damian_ir · 30-01-2012 03:13PM

This is EVROS river in the Northern Greece, in the province of Thrace. THIS RIVER IN MOST OF THE AREA IS the Greek - Turkish borders in the mainland.

Recently Turkey bought mechanical bridges which are capable of transfering tanks of the Turkish Army to the left side of the river into Greece.

Turkey posses 2.500 boats in minor asia(west turkish mainland) naval bases which has one and only purpose. To transport troops from western Turkey to the Greek islands.

Turkey recently anounced that will buy the new stealth fighter f-35.

Turkey recently announced that will buy a clearly offensive mini-aircarier for chopers and f-35. This type of mini aircarier is used by superpowers for invasion porposes.

Turkey's population is over 60 million and at the same time population of Greece is about 10 million.

As we speak , Russian anti-aircraft missiles are to be delivered to the Greek forces in order to partially support the Greek airdefence which is under daily danger of the turkish fighters above the Aegean sea. YES ARMS ARE DELIVERED eventhough country is one step from colapsing. YES may be that Greeks are crazy ...

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

The last achievement of the traitor George Papandreou and his associates .

In the same time it is a proof that Greece will always need arms to protect the country.

This is the course of a corvete of the Turkish Navy that almost reached the coasts of Attica(province of Athens).

This is the 3rd offensive movement of the Turkish Navy, after couple of others condacted by frigates and submarines, since Papandreou came in charge.

In all these cases , ships were in 100% readiness with all their weapon systems active. In an area inside Greek sea borders.

ALL THE ISLANDS that are vissible , among 1000 others non vissible on the map, are ... Greece. Except Cyprus on your right which is an independend republic member of E.U.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php

There will be a new invasion of Turkey (After Cyprus in 1974) .

It is a matter of time.

This is a part of the reason for what is happening in Greece.

One day, i will write down about an other problem of the region. Hundrends of thousand poor people that comes as refuges with boats in Greece. They are so many that the weak greek goverment can't handle. Most of them are forwarded under Turkish Goverment supervision (underground of course).

Guess what ? There is a E.U law that says Greece should keep them all as refuges inside the country and not to share them with the other members of the E.U.

An other day though ... an other day to partially enlight you about the mystery " what the ... is going on in Greece ? "

Perhaps the question that should be answered is ... "what is going on with Europe ?" or "where Europe wants to go ? "

Peanut · 30-01-2012 09:07PM

It makes absolutely no sense for Turkey, a NATO member and EU aspirant country, to invade a neighbouring EU country.

I honestly believe this is 99% paranoia on behalf of sections of Greek society, no doubt fueled by historical antagonism and the need to feel united against the old enemy. The last serious skirmish in '96 was resolved by a combination of both sides being unwilling to escalate the issue and international pressure.

Of course if the global situation changes drastically, all bets are off, and Greek fears could be understood in that longer-term context, but as for an immediate or near-term threat it just seems completely unrealistic.

BTW Turkey has also been host to US nuclear weapons for the past 40 years.

murphaph · 31-01-2012 12:26PM

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Of course Mr Peanut it makes sense that Turkey would want to re-take a former possession. It would like nothing better than to bring back its old Muslim Empire in Europe. Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party! Take out a history book and get a grip on the Ottoman Empire like a good man. It took perhaps 5 centuries to get the cvnts out of Europe!

Should we expect the Italians to retake Abysinnia any time soon? Or should we in the RoI be fearful of the bould Brits retaking their former possession? :eek:

Turkey has no intention of invading any EU member state. The EU is a bit of a joke at times but I am pretty certain the reaction to an invasion of an EU member state would be met with considerable military support, nevermind the economic sanctions a (thriving) Turkish economy would face.

Turkey would have so little to gain and so so much to lose.

Peanut · 31-01-2012 12:48PM

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Of course Mr Peanut it makes sense that Turkey would want to re-take a former possession. It would like nothing better than to bring back its old Muslim Empire in Europe.

Well I don't think you need to worry about it - the Germans* will have established the 4th reich by that time and will have subdued all of Europe in order to re-take their former possessions. (Isn't that what the Euro crisis is all about???)

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party!

Who wouldda thunk it !

I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.

If this does change drastically I may get back to you.

* I would like to appeal for a special exemption from Godwin's law based on the idea of an imminent Islamic invasion of Europe being roughly on par with the accusation of Germany having deliberately engineered the debt crisis in order to extend their interests in the region.

Tora Bora · 31-01-2012 01:29PM

Peanut wrote: »

Well I don't think you need to worry about it - the Germans* will have established the 4th reich by that time and will have subdued all of Europe in order to re-take their former possessions. (Isn't that what the Euro crisis is all about???)

Who wouldda thunk it !

I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.

If this does change drastically I may get back to you.

* I would like to appeal for a special exemption from Godwin's law based on the idea of an imminent Islamic invasion of Europe being roughly on par with the accusation of Germany having deliberately engineered the debt crisis in order to extend their interests in the region.

Haven't you heard? Roisin Shortarse Shorthall, is moving to Turkey. No more alchohol for you boy, to fuel your imagination

Scofflaw · 31-01-2012 04:12PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

Haven't you heard? Roisin Shortarse Shorthall, is moving to Turkey. No more alchohol for you boy, to fuel your imagination

Applying derogatory epithets to politicians isn't particularly big or clever, even with the strikethrough.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Damian_ir · 03-02-2012 06:57PM

Yesterday there was an unusual incident in Greece.

Justice ministry website was hacked by the Anonymous and they left a message.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eJP9wDhDoI

McDave · 03-02-2012 09:14PM

Damian_ir wrote: »

Yesterday there was an unusual incident in Greece.

Justice ministry website was hacked by the Anonymous and they left a message.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eJP9wDhDoI

S'funny. Whenever I see that silly smirking mask so beloved of the Occupy crew, I'm almost rooting for the banksters!

Damian_ir · 06-02-2012 06:54AM

What's wrong with the Greeks? [Swedish documentary - subbed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMQF2rSHnbw

McDave · 06-02-2012 09:25PM

Damian_ir wrote: »

What's wrong with the Greeks? [Swedish documentary - subbed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMQF2rSHnbw

Just watched the whole video.

The Greeks have messed up really badly. They put us in the ha'penny place.

Solutions? Hard to know. But one of them is to repatriate the €200 billion rich Greeks have apparently salted away offshore. If they had any humanity, that's what these guys should be doing. Put their money back to work in Greece.

Sponge Bob · 07-02-2012 11:04AM

The Greeks are incorrigible. They can take the bailout or leave...thats it. They dont even deserve a bailout. All their main parties are equally complicit.

Irish Aris · 07-02-2012 12:42PM

Good day everybody.
My name is Aris and I am from Greece (I hope you won't hate me for that

).
I moved to Ireland four months ago 'cause my employer proposed me to.

I just saw the whole "what's wrong with Greeks" video. It gives some aspects of the situation in Greece.

And you are partially right, Sponge Bob. Some Greek people are really, truly incorrigible.
There are mistakes done for the last 30 years. The country was en route to development and money came in from EU to help the country develop. . .and there was absolutely no control where this money were spent. So there was no substantial development to talk about. I am from Athens, capital of the country, born and lived there and the only organised development/infrastructure etc, was the years before the Olympic games (which was also of course a spending orgy, but at least it left us with something).

For me, the real problem is not that measures are need to be taken, they should. The problem is that not everybody is contributing to the solution for the country.
There has been a great deal of discussion about cuts on wages and pensions. They are true. But. . . what good does it do to cut the wage of someone taking a 1000 eur per month to 800 or 750? (these are true examples) When at the same time people take 2000 eur (or more) that don't see any cuts (or just small cuts) because they have very strong trade unions? Or the politicians, members of parliament etc. actually voting (unanimously) to increase their salary? It should be something for/from everybody.
I chose to leave my country because the alternative was to start looking for a new job. I have already spent 7 months unemployed in 2010 and things were not that bad back then. Officially unemployment is at 20%, but if you ask me it's more than that, as there are people who are long-term unemployed, don't take any social welfare, so they don't really "count".
A friend of mine just got her university diploma as a librarian. If she 'll manage to find a job (which will be difficult), she will get 550 eur. Per month. When I see these numbers, Irish people ask me if I mean per week. When I talk to Irish people about the situation in Greece being worse than here, they probably think I am exaggerating. I don't think I do. The problem in Ireland seems very specific to me-banks ans real estate. In Greece, you don't know where to begin. . .:(

The worst thing for me is that the country can actually get out of it. There are still opportunities for investments and development for Greece. And I am not a hot-shot financial analyst, but I can think of simple ways you can implement this and attract foreing investors/capitals. Instead the Greek governement chose a way that will eventually lead to bankruptcy and everyday people will suffer big time.
In the meantime, certain Greeks have the time of their lives. . .

Apologies for the long post.
Thanks a million for reading and take care.

07-02-2012 12:55PM

Irish Aris wrote: »

When I talk to Irish people about the situation in Greece being worse than here, they probably think I am exaggerating.

Hah, I can imagine.

Anyone who has actually read up on the Greek situation will understand, though. The problem, as I understand it, is that SOMEONE has to pay. Who that is depends on the internal politics of Greece itself. From what I have seen from their trade unions, corrupt public service practices etc, it's like Ireland's problems on megasteroids.

Greece needs fresh thinking and solidarity. Not just solidarity with your own immediate community/trade union etc but national solidarity. When everyone looks after themselves, nobody gets looked after.

I completely understand your decision to leave, and I would imagine that might be an extremely popular decision for many young Greeks as long-term austerity bites.

packiec50 · 07-02-2012 01:41PM

McDave wrote: »

Just watched the whole video.

The Greeks have messed up really badly. They put us in the ha'penny place.

Solutions? Hard to know. But one of them is to repatriate the €200 billion rich Greeks have apparently salted away offshore. If they had any humanity, that's what these guys should be doing. Put their money back to work in Greece.

I watched the video also, I presume it was trying to tug the heartstrings but for me it worked.

Greece is in Debt, but, parents bringing their children to Orphanages? pensions of 345 euros p/m while paying rent of 250 euros p/m?

I don't have a solution either, but is the solution to say Greece you owe us X, you will pay it, here's a loan to help you pay it, but we will only give it to you if you make sure somone suffers for it.

Chucky the tree · 07-02-2012 01:58PM

packiec50 wrote: »

I don't have a solution either, but is the solution to say Greece you owe us X, you will pay it, here's a loan to help you pay it, but we will only give it to you if you make sure somone suffers for it.

Well giving them a loan and then not asking them to fix their problems so they won't ever be able to pay off the loan or even become self-sufficient isn't the answer either.

Irish Aris · 07-02-2012 02:18PM

packiec50 wrote: »

I watched the video also, I presume it was trying to tug the heartstrings but for me it worked.

Greece is in Debt, but, parents bringing their children to Orphanages? pensions of 345 euros p/m while paying rent of 250 euros p/m?

I guess you are right about the heartstrings.

Mind you though, the thing with orphanages is not a general issue. Probably isolated cases here and there.
The pension situation is more common. My parents are both retired. Their two pensions some up together to an amount of 1300 euro per month. They consider themselves extremely fortunate to be able to put food on the table everyday.
I was talking to my mother and she told me that many churches/chapels (sorry, not sure which word is correct) are now giving food to poor people. Also some city councils organise these things. And a couple of big super markets stores (e.g. the equivalent of Dunnes or Tesco) are giving away food that they can not sell (e.g. bread that remained unsold by the end of the day is given to church) and also have big baskets in store and urge customer to share whatever they can.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well giving them a loan and then not asking them to fix their problems so they won't ever be able to pay off the loan or even become self-sufficient isn't the answer either.

I totally agree with you. This thing can actually turn the situation around and help the country get back on track. It will be difficult and it will take time. But it can only succeed if it starts moving things to the right direction, which currently it doesn't. If they don't change the general mindset of the whole situation, there is no way out.
Or maybe the Greek government(s) should completely step aside and let someone who knows what they are doing, do something. Right now, they are totally useless and only put new taxes-anybody can do that.

07-02-2012 02:21PM

Lets be clear here. Greeks are doing it to themselves. The international *RESCUE* mission is there to help Greece, not enslave it.

While there are pensioners barely getting by, read up on how much you make if you are an employee of the state rail company.

Scofflaw · 07-02-2012 02:24PM

packiec50 wrote: »

I watched the video also, I presume it was trying to tug the heartstrings but for me it worked.

Greece is in Debt, but, parents bringing their children to Orphanages? pensions of 345 euros p/m while paying rent of 250 euros p/m?

I don't have a solution either, but is the solution to say Greece you owe us X, you will pay it, here's a loan to help you pay it, but we will only give it to you if you make sure somone suffers for it.

It's not a case of "someone suffers for it" - it's that if the Greek system isn't working, and it isn't, then it needs to be changed. If it can be done without anyone suffering, that's great, but if it can't, it's up to the Greeks to decide how to spread the burden. If it's being spread badly because Greek politicians don't want to challenge the unions, what can be done by anyone else?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Maura74 · 07-02-2012 03:32PM

Irish Aris wrote: »

Good day everybody.

it was the years before the Olympic games (which was also of course a spending orgy, but at least it left us with something).

I think the Olympic games should be held in Greece every 4 years from now on as it the first olympic game were held there and was recorded in 776 BC; that was about 3,000 years ago.

That would help them with their debts........:cool:

KIERAN1 · 07-02-2012 04:44PM

Europe can't let Greece go bust (even though they are bust) and that's the problem. If Greek debts were not owed to other countries Greece would have been given the paddle a long time ago.

ART6 · 07-02-2012 04:49PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's not a case of "someone suffers for it" - it's that if the Greek system isn't working, and it isn't, then it needs to be changed. If it can be done without anyone suffering, that's great, but if it can't, it's up to the Greeks to decide how to spread the burden. If it's being spread badly because Greek politicians don't want to challenge the unions, what can be done by anyone else?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Not a lot different to Ireland then?

Time to burn Greece?

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