Time to burn Greece?

beeftotheheels

McDave wrote: »

IMO, if Greece shows political resolve in solving its problems, it will provide enough bona fides to stay within the bounds of a Eurozone-wide resolution. That resolution will involve the distribution of much of the costs across the public and private sectors in the member countries.

Call it a default or burden-sharing or whatever. But it will be an agreed resolution supported by Eurozone-wide reforming macroeconomic and financial action combined with a strengthening of the Eurozone's architecture that. And it will be orderly. As such, the markets will have to accept the outcome. And I would expect they will be back in buying Eurozone and national bonds before long. Because there'll be profits to be made.

I agree with the concept of a Eurozone wide solution, I just think that it will be prefaced by Greece balancing their budget and so will not be tabled until Greece is running a primary surplus, and the Eurozone banks have had time to provide against any Greek debt they hold. However, no one can publicly say this now, because to do so would force the banks to write down the Greek debt and could trigger the contagion that the Eurozone is desperately trying to defer and manage.

But regardless of the political resolve of the Greek government, if the Greek people do not accept the need for austerity measures then the Greek government's plan is doomed to fail, and there is nothing that the Eurozone can do about this.

McDave

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I agree with the concept of a Eurozone wide solution, I just think that it will be prefaced by Greece balancing their budget and so will not be tabled until Greece is running a primary surplus, and the Eurozone banks have had time to provide against any Greek debt they hold. However, no one can publicly say this now, because to do so would force the banks to write down the Greek debt and could trigger the contagion that the Eurozone is desperately trying to defer and manage.

But regardless of the political resolve of the Greek government, if the Greek people do not accept the need for austerity measures then the Greek government's plan is doomed to fail, and there is nothing that the Eurozone can do about this.

Indeed.

I think the Greeks will take steps to correct their economic behaviour. It's in their own interests above all. However, if they choose to continue playing silly buggers and the inevitable failure ensues, the Eurozone has to give serious consideration to cutting its losses on Greece, and on sucking up the price so that it can move on.

Damian_ir

For over a month Constitution(or Syntagma) Square was like that




Many trators in the parliament had decided to vote the unspeakable !!!
Those 155 trators are the following:
http://www.newsit.gr/files/Image/30-06-11/amalias20.JPG




The day that they were voting(Last Wednesday) in the Parliament "the surrender of Greece to the economical killers",
they gave the following order to the police ... "EMPTY SYNTAGMA SQUARE" .

Provocators of them

started to attack against policemen, and police started to implement the initial order by using teargases and light-noise bombs against thousand of protesting people around Syntagma square and all people that were in the main roads that ends in Syntagma square . They even attacked people that were having lunch ("Bairaktaris" and "Thanasis" famous souvlaki restaurants in Monastiraki square) !!!! They did that using a motorists team of police that is called DIAS(zeus) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D53sGw7ndSY/TJacgSzJL1I/AAAAAAAAI2A/WoRYu5DstNA/s1600/omades_dias_.jpg

So Syntagma-Constitution Square and 1 square km around the parliament turned to that ...

An old man is being chased and beated by 3 policemen

That was a little younger and they "treated him" like that


A few more





If this is the face of DEMO CRACY ( DHMO KPATIA - PEOPLE RULES) of Papandreou or if this is the face of the era of European Union then how is the face of Slavery ?

Damian_ir

A few opinions from people of Greece :

# There will be no future for E.U unless Europe doesnt implement a
Ministry of European Economy which will apply common economic policy. Common currency does not mean common policy. Eventually this could destroy E.U.

# Recent aggrement between Greece and E.U&IMF concidered by many Greeks as a medicine to a dead man. This solution is considered by many Greeks to be a public property sell out or an alternative way for the international bankers to minimize the cost of a certain future bankruptcy(This means that they bought time to cover their 6 o clock). An other persentage of Greeks(minority) is extremelly satisfied by the agreement, because they will get benefits direct or indirect through the new bailout process. Majority of Greeks thinks that Greece as a goverment and as a political structure is not better than countries like Colombia if not worst. In favour of the last, let me write down the names of political leaders of Greece of 3 different historical periods:


Georgios Papandreou 1888-1968



Andreas G. Papandreou 1919-1996


George Disaster Papandreou 1952-bankrupcy

That is not demo-cracy !


# People here believes that Jean Claude Juncker, Didier Reynders and other officials knew for years about the debt problems of Greece but did nothing on purpose(keeping it as a secret) in order to satisfy interests of various kinds... They are most resposible for what happened.

Sorry about my poor English.

motherriley

Heard on UK radio on Friday people phoning into station saying why should they pay for a country that is able to retire at 55 and a large state pension as well as paying little or no taxes when they got to work until they are 66 and pay high taxes with very little state pension compared to other EU countries.....

Finnbar01

The Greeks are going to have to live within their means and start paying their taxes.

They want something out of nothing.

srsly78

Damian as a Greek you should know democracy actually means "mob rule", which is what you are advocating over the rule of law.

Damian_ir

I would like to enter to the Greek Economy equation ...

what happens over the Aegean Sea every week between Greek(HAF) an Turkish(TAF) airforce.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv1S1w2upkM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sypS-GeDWSo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0-zXHdtlE&NR=1


You don't want to know what is the petrol bill after that kind of scrumble.

---

Voltex

Damian_ir wrote: »

I would like to enter to the Greek Economy equation ...

what happens over the Aegean Sea every week between Greek(HAF) an Turkish(TAF) airforce.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv1S1w2upkM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sypS-GeDWSo


You don't want to know what is the petrol bill after that kind of scrumble.

Very nice F16's...they better hope the repo man aint there next week to take'em back!

Damian_ir

Voltex wrote: »

Very nice F16's...they better hope the repo man aint there next week to take'em back!

I know , this is a great oportunity to make business these days. Many predators are waiting for that, though drama is followed by Catharsis.


This is the last piece of work of George Disaster Papandreou

http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=96961&catID=11

Icepick

I don't speak Greek.
Do the protesters' placards say 'Pay me so I don't have to work' or such?

Damian_ir

Icepick wrote: »

I don't speak Greek.
Do the protesters' placards say 'Pay me so I don't have to work' or such?

No, i haven't seen message like that on a placard ever.

Icepick wrote: »

I don't speak Greek.
Do the protesters' placards say 'Pay me so I don't have to work' or such?

No, i haven't seen message like that on a placard ever.

====

Somewhere in the Aegean sea. U don't want to know about the petrol bill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmmcvb8rjG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVLQBNOTeJY Bombers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYAwllZPzAU Light ships

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glm8p6Ch4oc Frigates



Where is smoke , there is fire.

Aegean is constantly in "smoke" ...

Damian_ir

Ι forgot to mention an other reason for the Greek debt,

that finally means German profit ...


Submarine : U214 Papanikolis (Made by HDV)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ALWh7ZHAk

---

I have also to mention an other reason of the Greek debt,
that finally means German profit ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxJQX2AUO74

If E.U. was a cofederation these money wouldn't be payed by Greeks, but it would come from the budget of European Defence Ministry.

Monty Burnz

Damian_ir wrote: »

Ι forgot to mention an other reason for the Greek debt,

that finally means German profit ...


Submarine : U214 Papanikolis (Made by HDV)

---

I have also to mention an other reason of the Greek debt,
that finally means German profit ...


If E.U. was a cofederation these money wouldn't be payed by Greeks, but it would come from the budged of Ministry of European Defence.

Sorry, this is horsecrap. Nobody is making Greece buy this stuff - they don't need it. Turkey is not going to invade Greece, same as Britain isn't going to invade Ireland. We don't buy submarines or F16s - perhaps Greece should do the same?

Your posts sound an awful lot like you want other people to pay so that Greeks don't have to. That's not how the world works.

srsly78

Totally agree. Suck it up Greeks. Pay your taxes, stop being lazy fsckers, and retire at the same age as the rest of us.

You aren't being forced to buy those weapons, you are being forced to follow through with the contract for them you signed years ago.

Scofflaw

Also, Greece sources most of its military equipment from the US, which means that the Greek bailout funnels a lot of European taxes into the pockets of US arms suppliers, courtesy of the Greek urge to keep up with a larger and more productive neighbouring economy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Icepick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Your posts sound an awful lot like you want other people to pay so that Greeks don't have to. That's not how the world works.

It seems it is exactly how the world works.

Monty Burnz

Icepick wrote: »

It seems it is exactly how the world works.

Fortunately we don't live in Fianna Failure mirror-world anymore...

Damian_ir

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That's not how the world works.

Yes i know that know.
I also know now, that E.U. is horse crap too.
It is a great way though for Germany and France to do business.

One of the main reasons for Greece to join the E.U. many years ago was to protect it's borders.
At least, this is what they said to the people. That was said only a few years after Turkey invaded in Cyprus in 1974.
Unfortunatelly the politicians of Greece was thinking to become Germany's trojan horse, not to protect the borders of the country.

Not to protect the oil beneath Aegean Sea.

Monty Burnz

Damian_ir wrote: »

Yes i know that know.
I also know now, that E.U. is horse crap too.
It is a great way for Germany and France to do business.

And a great way for Greece to issue bonds and spend money that it doesn't have, and create fraudulent accounts so that it can pay its public servants huge amounts of money.

I had a good laugh when I read that the Greek rail system cost 700 million euros per year to run, but had an income of 100 billion euros a year. That's unbelievable stuff. And the staff are all paid a fortune.

If anybody doubts just how culpable the Greeks are in their own ruin, read this factual article.

In addition to its roughly $400 billion (and growing) of outstanding government debt, the Greek number crunchers had just figured out that their government owed another $800 billion or more in pensions. Add it all up and you got about $1.2 trillion, or more than a quarter-million dollars for every working Greek. Against $1.2 trillion in debts, a $145 billion bailout was clearly more of a gesture than a solution. And those were just the official numbers; the truth is surely worse. “Our people went in and couldn’t believe what they found,” a senior I.M.F. official told me, not long after he’d returned from the I.M.F.’s first Greek mission. “The way they were keeping track of their finances—they knew how much they had agreed to spend, but no one was keeping track of what he had actually spent. It wasn’t even what you would call an emerging economy. It was a Third World country.”

As it turned out, what the Greeks wanted to do, once the lights went out and they were alone in the dark with a pile of borrowed money, was turn their government into a piñata stuffed with fantastic sums and give as many citizens as possible a whack at it. In just the past decade the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled, in real terms—and that number doesn’t take into account the bribes collected by public officials. The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true. “We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,” Manos put it to me. “And yet there isn’t a single private company in Greece with that kind of average pay.” The Greek public-school system is the site of breathtaking inefficiency: one of the lowest-ranked systems in Europe, it nonetheless employs four times as many teachers per pupil as the highest-ranked, Finland’s. Greeks who send their children to public schools simply assume that they will need to hire private tutors to make sure they actually learn something. There are three government-owned defense companies: together they have billions of euros in debts, and mounting losses. The retirement age for Greek jobs classified as “arduous” is as early as 55 for men and 50 for women. As this is also the moment when the state begins to shovel out generous pensions, more than 600 Greek professions somehow managed to get themselves classified as arduous: hairdressers, radio announcers, waiters, musicians, and on and on and on. The Greek public health-care system spends far more on supplies than the European average—and it is not uncommon, several Greeks tell me, to see nurses and doctors leaving the job with their arms filled with paper towels and diapers and whatever else they can plunder from the supply closets.

Damian_ir

I only have to state that Greece shouldn't be in Eurozone in the first place. Germany and other leading countries lead Greece in, so that the country goes bankrupted. When it does they will buy everything for nothing.

It is very convinient for Greece to let to bankrupcy, now that everyone knows what is beneath Aegean Sea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14968737

Many European politicians has admited that Greece was accepted in eurozone acording to politic criteria, not according to economic criteria.

This is a fact. Greece should have stayed in Drachma. This will be the future too, because Greece was not ready for the eurozone.

To any people, that thinks Turkey is not going to attack Greece, i advise to him to do a research through google to read about tense in the triangle of Cyprus(Greece)-Israel-Turkey, in regards to gas and oil drilling.

Monty Burnz

Damian_ir wrote: »

I only have to state that Greece shouldn't be in Eurozone in the first place. Germany and other leading countries lead Greece in, so that the country goes bankrupted.

Probably true, but nobody forced anybody to join. The Swedes and the Danes stayed outside - countries no more powerful than Greece.

Damian_ir wrote: »

Many European politicians has admited that Greece was accepted in eurozone acording to politic criteria, not according to economic criteria.

This is a fact. Greece should have stayed in Drachma. This will be the future too.

You're probably right on both counts.

Icepick

Damian_ir wrote: »

I only have to state that Greece shouldn't be in Eurozone in the first place. Germany and other leading countries lead Greece in, so that the country goes bankrupted. When it does they will buy everything for nothing.

It is very convinient for Greece to let to bankrupcy, now that everyone knows what is beneath Aegean Sea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14968737

Many European politicians has admited that Greece was accepted in eurozone acording to politic criteria, not according to economic criteria.

This is a fact. Greece should have stayed in Drachma. This will be the future too, because Greece was not ready for the eurozone.

To any people, that thinks Turkey is not going to attack Greece, i advise to him to do a research through google to read about tense in the triangle of Cyprus(Greece)-Israel-Turkey, in regards to gas and oil drilling.

So it's all a plot to get Greek oil located at sea?
What does that remind me of...

Scofflaw

Damian_ir wrote: »

I only have to state that Greece shouldn't be in Eurozone in the first place. Germany and other leading countries lead Greece in, so that the country goes bankrupted. When it does they will buy everything for nothing.

It is very convinient for Greece to let to bankrupcy, now that everyone knows what is beneath Aegean Sea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14968737

Many European politicians has admited that Greece was accepted in eurozone acording to politic criteria, not according to economic criteria.

This is a fact. Greece should have stayed in Drachma. This will be the future too, because Greece was not ready for the eurozone.

To any people, that thinks Turkey is not going to attack Greece, i advise to him to do a research through google to read about tense in the triangle of Cyprus(Greece)-Israel-Turkey, in regards to gas and oil drilling.

Greece should probably have stayed out, but wanted in, to the extent it faked the entry criteria - it wasn't just not forced, but actually lied its way in. It expected to be able to borrow against the strength of the German economy at rates it couldn't have matched in the market by itself, and did so - and that's still what it's doing.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Icepick wrote: »

So it's all a plot to get Greek oil located at sea?
What does that remind me of...

Oil that Germany mysteriously knew about a decade before everyone else...

amused,
Scofflaw

View

Damian_ir wrote: »

To any people, that thinks Turkey is not going to attack Greece, i advise to him to do a research through google to read about tense in the triangle of Cyprus(Greece)-Israel-Turkey, in regards to gas and oil drilling.

So sit down and cut a deal.

If the oil there is small, it is not worth having a war over. If it is large, then there'll be more than enough oil money to go around to fund "pipelines", "storage facilities" and the like for everyone.

A full scale war means no oil money for anyone and they tend to be very expensive these days.

Damian_ir

Scofflaw wrote: »

Oil that Germany mysteriously knew about a decade before everyone else...

amused,
Scofflaw

Everyone knows on behalf of strong countries like, USA, UK, Germany, Russia. They know that, at least for 3 decades. Many Greek scientists knows about that and they have writen many books on this issue. People had been discovering oil indications even in their agricultural fields(This in western mainland).

Politicians of the past, never mention that in the public and never tried to get it out because they knew that it would gather tension in the Aegean and Eastern medeterenean sea. They probably didn't want to turn Greece to a country like the ones, that a few high power people gets all the wealth and the simple people starves.
Them(politicians of the past) probably wanted a long period of peace for the country, after fighting so many wars during 20th century. Except 2 balcan wars, except two world wars, except one civil war 1947 (right(UK) against left(USSR) ), there was the 1974 war in Cyprus after Turkish invasion.

If anyone is interested, there are new releases of wikileaks in regards to the Greek politicians doing business through Siemens . European secret service posses tapes against Greek politicians, according to wikileaks.

Eventually, it seems , that after that business of the modern Greek Politicians with Germany(pls read about briefcases leaving from Germany through Siemens) , more terrible news will come from the Southeast Europe.

Of course we do not forget the past. Germans has a huge debt to Greece and Greek people too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distomo_massacre
But this is a story that will come out by future generations of Greeks of the towns and villages that burned to ground. They will claim by Germany, compensation of money more than the current Greek debt.



Sorry about my English.

Scofflaw

The belief in rich Aegean oil reserves was last considered credible in the Eighties, back when I was doing a geology degree. Greece is certainly hoping to sell licensing rights at the moment, and is presumably talking up the prospects in exactly the same way our government does when there's a licensing round in the offing, but the oil remains as largely imaginary as ours.

It certainly seems the Greek Minister responsible is happy enough to rattle his sabre in respect of the oil rights:

I would like to assure you that the public organization which will organize the bidding for the contest will do its work with utmost seriousness and will not surrender even a decimeter of Greek exploratory rights to anybody.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Night Fox

Hi, I'm trying to do some research for an economics project and one of the topics I need to write about is Irelands stance on the Greek bailout. Were we for or against the greek bailout? Is there anywhere where I can find an official stance on this?

Any news articles or explainations would be greatly appreciated!

Scofflaw

Moved to the "time to burn Greece?" thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw