Bicycle fines for running a red light?

galwaycyclist · 05-11-2011 7:20pm

jin.ie wrote: »

Ye I seen one for certain, around Ranelagh, went through on green and passing the junction on my left the lights had already turned, luckily the cars didn't go out

Yes that is entirely possible. While I cannot support people breaking red lights to cycle through pedestrian crossings it is the case that for years Irish traffic engineers have been ignoring the presence of cyclists in traffic. (So Irish traffic engineers have been training cyclists to ignore red lights)

In the case you describe, it is possible that the engineers responsible neglected to give cyclists enough "intergreen" time to clear the junction before the lights changed on the crossing arm.

The moral for cyclists being don't ever assume green lights are any protection either.

psychward · 05-11-2011 7:20pm

Sorry to have given you more work. I will learn to stay on topic. My comment about little people arose from a perception that a lot of those people who throw the book at cyclists never actually ride a bike themselves.

Jawgap · 05-11-2011 7:23pm

CramCycle wrote: »

MOD VOICE......

Need to work on it - get it to sound more like this from Captain Havoc Scarlet......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iEebxCkJwE

mediwheel · 05-11-2011 10:44pm

Anyone that breaks a red light is looking for trouble ! Even though i am guilty of it myself !
As i work shift work including early morning starts at weekends and bank holidays etc. i come across many sets of traffic lights that do not change to green unless a car approaches and i am left with no choice but to break the lights or wait until a car comes along ! So really sometimes cyclists are forced to break the rules of the roads ?????

doozerie · 05-11-2011 10:50pm

jin.ie wrote: »

Well, Bicycles are cars are completely different, bikes are more manoeuver-able, you can hear everything that goes on around you, if I walked across the road with my bike would it make it any better?

Yes, bikes are more manoeuverable, but that doesn't mean that the person riding the bike is capable of manoeuvering the bike well, quickly, and/or safely. And yes, on a bike you can hear everything that goes on around you, but that doesn't mean you'll pay any attention to it. You might believe that every traffic accident that occurs is because one party simply didn't see the other, but in my experience many of the near accidents I've had have been because the other party saw me but chose to ignore the fact as it was far more convenient for them to not acknowledge my presence.

jin.ie wrote:

so for example if it was late at night and there was no one on the road, who not go ahead? who cares???
and no I wouldn't do it in a car, because that is more dangerous and in a car I wouldn't act the same as on a bike.

I've had this discussion with people before. They argue that they'd go through a pedestrian crossing on red, while cycling, if there were no pedestrians around because "it's safe". When asked if they'd do the same in a car they reply that no, because that would be dangerous to the pedestrians. But there are no pedestrians present, I say, you say this yourself in the scenario you described. "But there might be", they say. Yeah, but you said they weren't there at all and that's why it's safe to go through on a bike. "But they might turn up while going through in a car", they say. Then I cry.

CramCycle · 05-11-2011 10:57pm

mediwheel wrote: »

Anyone that breaks a red light is looking for trouble ! Even though i am guilty of it myself !
As i work shift work including early morning starts at weekends and bank holidays etc. i come across many sets of traffic lights that do not change to green unless a car approaches and i am left with no choice but to break the lights or wait until a car comes along ! So really sometimes cyclists are forced to break the rules of the roads ?????

I work nights as well, 2 solutions to the non changing lights are as follows:

1. Get a steel bike and ride over the induction coil to trigger the lights, it will take no longer than a car.

2. Wait, for a reasonable degree of time (I am not sure what this degree should be), when there is no sign of change (ie a cycle of lights without yours turning), you can call this a stalled traffic light and proceed with caution as if it were a stop sign (told to me by a Garda and someone on boards). Write then to your local council to complain that the light system does not recognise bicycles, maybe suggest a button for those with bikes to expensive to set off the induction coil.

Apologies if I am wrong, I'm sure someone here knows for certain if this is OK/legal?

mediwheel · 05-11-2011 11:09pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I work nights as well, 2 solutions to the non changing lights are as follows:

1. Get a steel bike and ride over the induction coil to trigger the lights, it will take no longer than a car.

2. Wait, for a reasonable degree of time (I am not sure what this degree should be), when there is no sign of change (ie a cycle of lights without yours turning), you can call this a stalled traffic light and proceed with caution as if it were a stop sign (told to me by a Garda and someone on boards). Write then to your local council to complain that the light system does not recognise bicycles, maybe suggest a button for those with bikes to expensive to set off the induction coil.

Apologies if I am wrong, I'm sure someone here knows for certain if this is OK/legal?

I am 6"2" and not skinny ! Pressure mats dont trigger the lights when i cycle over them ! Have never seen a induction coil ?? Well not in Dublin anyhow !! Might start towing my car behind me ??!!

Doom · 05-11-2011 11:12pm

jin.ie wrote: »

Sorry if this has come up before but I couldn't find it.

Ok so today was cycling back as normal and while going through Camden street, I got pulled over by a Garda because I went through a yellow light although he says red because the pedestrians lights had turned green already.

Anyway he took my details threatening to take my bike if they were false, and said I would receive a summons! Since when do you go to court for going through a red light?? He also mentioned a fine, being a poor student I can't afford to pay a fine.

Just to say I've gone through plenty of red lights since I do be in a hurry to get home in the rain and cold but a summons is a bit extreme.
If anyone has been in a previous situation I'd like to know what happened to them.
Thanks

You're going to be a organ doner soon

CramCycle · 05-11-2011 11:28pm

mediwheel wrote: »

I am 6"2" and not skinny ! Pressure mats dont trigger the lights when i cycle over them ! Have never seen a induction coil ?? Well not in Dublin anyhow !! Might start towing my car behind me ??!!

Pressure mats? Never seen them on the road.

See here for what I was on about.

You see them all over the place in Dublin, they are the black rectangles you see on the ground before a white line at a traffic lights.

A steel bike will set them off if you cycle over the line and leave your bike along it. If you have heavy hubs and the coil is very near the surface it may also work.

mediwheel · 06-11-2011 12:06am

CramCycle wrote: »

Pressure mats? Never seen them on the road.

See here for what I was on about.

You see them all over the place in Dublin, they are the black rectangles you see on the ground before a white line at a traffic lights.

A steel bike will set them off if you cycle over the line and leave your bike along it. If you have heavy hubs and the coil is very near the surface it may also work.

What ever their called they dont work when you cycle over them.

CramCycle · 06-11-2011 12:11am

mediwheel wrote: »

What ever their called they dont work when you cycle over them.

You have to cycle on the line (where the coil is) and it will only work with a steel bike, a modern carbon bike probably won't set it off. Hence why I gave the second bit of advice (advice not legal fact, you'd want to check this out with someone who has a definite yes/no on this).

Stop, wait and if clear that the lights will not change proceed with caution as if it is a stalled light. Basically I was saying don't barrel through it just because you think it won't change based on previous experience. Stop, look, listen and if the light will not/does not change proceed with caution, if the Gardai are there you can ask them if it's OK to do this.

tomasrojo · 06-11-2011 12:19am

CramCycle wrote: »

There are dedicated cycle lane lights on the road from Nutgrove shopping centre to Terenure, unfortunately, they are often actually off the road and cycle track and often in line with pavements, silly light planning people.

I had to go to Nutgrove a few weeks ago, and I went along Grange Road and Nutgrove Avenue. Is the route with the dedicated lights a different route? I didn't notice any that day, but I got off the cycle lane promplty because it had parked cars on it and it wasn't very conducive to performing the final right turn into the shopping centre.

If that's not the route with the lights, is the route you're talking about a good route? I might be playing guitar in the Food Hall there again, so it would be good to know the best route.

galwaycyclist · 06-11-2011 12:20am

mediwheel wrote: »

What ever their called they dont work when you cycle over them.

As I said we have a situation in this country where several generations of traffic engineers have been training several generations of cyclists to ignore traffic lights.

Problem is how do we address this? I am personally sympathetic to the view that cyclists should be permitted to treat them as stop signs in certain circumstances.

However there will be no pressure to change the law so long as the Guards look the other way. So it is in my interest to see the law enforced as this might then lead to a wider debate and diacussion by cyclists who will then be systematically inconvenienced. At the moment a proportion systematically break the law which plays right into the hands of our enemies in the media, civil service and other institutions.

tomasrojo · 06-11-2011 12:27am

CramCycle wrote: »

You see them all over the place in Dublin, they are the black rectangles you see on the ground before a white line at a traffic lights.

A steel bike will set them off if you cycle over the line and leave your bike along it.

Yeah, they're all over the place, mostly where minor roads meet major roads. I have a steel bike and I can trigger all the ones on my regular routes.

CramCycle · 06-11-2011 12:34am

tomasrojo wrote: »

I had to go to Nutgrove a few weeks ago, and I went along Grange Road and Nutgrove Avenue. Is the route with the dedicated lights a different route? I didn't notice any that day, but I got off the cycle lane promplty because it had parked cars on it and it wasn't very conducive to performing the final right turn into the shopping centre.

If that's not the route with the lights, is the route you're talking about a good route? I might be playing guitar in the Food Hall there again, so it would be good to know the best route.

They are actually where the two roads meet, but you have to not only come off the road but also the cycle track which randomly ends, they are in conjunction with the pedestrian lights.

They do in fact invite people to break the law because they ask you to cross pedestrian crossings when they are green and are off the road and track giving the impression you should be on the pavement.

Do not use them, when I said route I meant they are on that road section, its not a separate route, sorry for the confusion.

Lumen · 06-11-2011 12:44am

There is a junction on the north quay in Dublin where the ped light on the far side of the junction goes green the instant the light goes red. Around Parliament St, not sure. Maybe all lights do that, but the junction is so wide that cycling in the wet at normal traffic speeds means it is unsafe to stop on amber (for fear of coming off or getting rear-ended) yet you don't get over the ped crossing until it's gone green.

I know in theory that you should proceed at a speed at which you can stop if the light changes, but this would mean going slower than the rest of the traffic which is in itself dangerous as it invites crazy overtakes.

I thought the law was that you have to get past the stop line on the near side of the junction before the light goes red, and that it was legal to go through the ped green in this circumstance.

Can anyone clarify?

Beasty · 06-11-2011 1:25am

Lumen wrote: »

I thought the law was that you have to get past the stop line on the near side of the junction before the light goes red, and that it was legal to go through the ped green in this circumstance.

Can anyone clarify?

From the ROTR

An amber light means that you must not go beyond the stop line or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light. However, you may go on if you are so close to the line or the light when the amber light first appears that stopping would be dangerous.

I guess it means that you consider the "danger" when the light first turns amber - if you are unable to safely stop before it then changes to red you are allowed to proceed

Lumen · 06-11-2011 1:28am

Beasty wrote: »

I guess it means that you consider the "danger" when the light first turns amber - if you are unable to safely stop before it then changes to red you are allowed to proceed

Thanks, that's what I thought. So presumably it's not illegal in itself to go through a ped crossing on green, although obviously that doesn't remove duty of care and if you hit someone you'd have some explaining to do.

edit: at the junction I'm thinking of a slower cyclist could enter the junction on a green light and still intersect the ped crossing on a green man.

Cookie_Monster · 06-11-2011 1:59am

psychward wrote: »

In the states at least in San Fran I seem to remember cars could turn a corner slowly even if there was a red light but always had to give right of way.

turn right on red is the best rule ever. America's only worthwhile contribution to the automotive world as Clarkson put it.

psychward · 06-11-2011 2:15am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

turn right on red is the best rule ever. America's only worthwhile contribution to the automotive world as Clarkson put it.

I agree it's a good rule and along the same practical principles I see no harm in cyclists not behaving like unthinking robots when they encounter a red light in Dublin. Many times theres no difference between a cyclist rounding a corner carefully and walking the corner and then disembarking again on the other side of the corner. Unfortunately like in the rest of life the idiots and the careless ruin it for everyone else.

Oldlegs · 06-11-2011 8:42am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

turn right on red is the best rule ever. America's only worthwhile contribution to the automotive world as Clarkson put it.

"Right Turn on Red" is great. But I wonder would the "4-way stop" ever have a chance here in Ireland. It would be great to try it for a few weeks just to see the antics of competing drivers

For anyone not familiar with the concept. It is basically a crossroad junction where ALL have to stop. If multiple drivers are at the junction you take it in turns to pass through. Works if every one plays by the rules. Chaos otherwise.

Also gives rise to the concept of a "rolling stop" where if traffic is light you may not want to come to a complete stop, so you slow down, have a quick look and continue on. Great place to pick up a few traffic tickets

Cookie_Monster · 06-11-2011 8:49am

Oldlegs wrote: »

"Right Turn on Red" is great. But I wonder would the "4-way stop" ever have a chance here in Ireland.

there is one on Killiney hill road behind Ballybrack village (south Dublin) that's been in place just over a year. It sorta works but not very well as people are just not familiar enough with it.

I'm sure there are others around too...

Also gives rise to the concept of a "rolling stop" where if traffic is light you may not want to come to a complete stop, so you slow down, have a quick look and continue on. Great place to pick up a few traffic tickets

Flashing amber in all directions should be used at night at junctions, again that's what the US do in places and it means you're not needlessly sitting there for 1 minute or two in the middle of the night.

peteb2 · 06-11-2011 9:57am

eh does no one recall the case that was in the paper a few months ago where the cyclist broke the lights, and i think he ended up going over the bonnet of a car. But the cyclist ended up losing his drivers licence as a result!!

Kintarō Hattori · 06-11-2011 8:29pm

peteb2 wrote: »

eh does no one recall the case that was in the paper a few months ago where the cyclist broke the lights, and i think he ended up going over the bonnet of a car. But the cyclist ended up losing his drivers licence as a result!!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-2228117.html

I think you're talking about this fellow.

Head The Wall · 06-11-2011 10:24pm

The "cheaper than sleeping pills" comment is funny in that article

dvntie · 06-11-2011 10:56pm

jin.ie wrote: »

It's illegal to cycle on footpaths too? well I always thought it was normal to just cycle on when the road was clear. who reads the rules of the road when you're a cyclist? I really miss the metro..

Having cycled in Dublin for years and knocked off many a time by daft drivers, I'd happily drive on if this muppet ran a red light in front of me
Gives cyclists a bad name.

paddyandy · 06-11-2011 11:03pm

Hope you get fined i'm fed up like a lot of people are with cyclists doing what they like.Good to see a Guard doing his job and the fact you can't afford to pay well.... think about it next time.Good on you Guard.

psychward · 06-11-2011 11:10pm

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-2228117.html

I think you're talking about this fellow.

In the article he says he was talking to a ''barrister friend''

More legal aid bills for the taxpayer ?

CramCycle · 07-11-2011 12:55am

dvntie wrote: »

Having cycled in Dublin for years and knocked off many a time by daft drivers, I'd happily drive on if this muppet ran a red light in front of me
Gives cyclists a bad name.

MOD VOICE: No threats of violence towards anyone in this thread, next one to threaten or hint at such behaviour is out of here.

superrdave · 07-11-2011 12:55am

psychward wrote: »

In the article he says he was talking to a ''barrister friend''

More legal aid bills for the taxpayer ?

His appeal was on 17th February this year (http://courts.ie/legaldiary.nsf/c5ab88e8abed0b7f80256e54003e4f4e/9d4f5f925d1fc15f802578390044a400?OpenDocument) but I don't know how he got on....

paddyandy · 07-11-2011 12:22pm

Put Plenty of Law and Order on the streets and i'll get a bike myself.

wannabe7a · 07-11-2011 1:53pm

I got stopped this morning as well. Was going through a red pedestrian crossing light after the pedestrians had gone. Cycled slowly through the red light (in my defense). I got away with a warning but next time it will be the court.

Does anybody know what the fine will be for going through red light?

ps. my opinion is that there should be different degrees of fines for going through red.

monkeypants · 07-11-2011 3:54pm

wannabe7a wrote: »

my opinion is that there should be different degrees of fines for going through red.

Depending on the shade of red or some other criteria?

Chips Lovell · 07-11-2011 5:32pm

Believe it's usually around €200

seamus · 07-11-2011 5:44pm

We'll get nowhere with this issue until Gardai have the power to issue on-the-spot fines for a variety of offences, including a pile of things that peds do as well.

psychward · 07-11-2011 6:07pm

seamus wrote: »

We'll get nowhere with this issue until Gardai have the power to issue on-the-spot fines for a variety of offences, including a pile of things that peds do as well.

Especially for littering. I hate people who don't take responsibility for their own mess and they seem to be fearless because nothing seems to happen to them.

mcmoustache · 07-11-2011 6:17pm

Do collected fines go to the State's coffers or are the takings ring-fenced in some way?

If they go to the State, it could be a bit of a money spinner if they ramped up enforcement but the fines would need to imposed on the spot for it to be worthwhile. I don't think that the fines would cover the costs of the legal procedings in the current setup.

A proper clampdown wouldn't be long changing people's behaviour. I'd say that most people on bikes believe that they don't need to stop at red and can ride on footpaths. A high-profile clampdown would wake them up, at least for a while.

I yearn for the day when I can be the smug bastard who stopped at red while seeing some gob****e getting a stern talking to by a gárda.

psychward · 07-11-2011 6:25pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'd say that most people on bikes believe that they don't need to stop at red and can ride on footpaths.

Well the question is do we want to encourage people to use bikes or not. in Germany and many other countries you can often ride on the footpath and they will paint a cycle lane onto even a narrow path and people just learn to get out of the way or stay on their side of the path. The one way traffic system makes bikes even harder to use in Dublin City Centre. I don't see why people can't cycle across Grafton Street for example to cut across one way systems. I think pedestrians and cyclists should learn how to share the same space and that the fines should go towards the reckless idiots but not to everyone as some people do take care and adjust their speed appropriately. I often cycle across Grafton Street and if I see a baby buggy, a crowd of people or someone old I slow down to a stop and push the bicycle gently with my feet while sitting on it. The last thing I want is some drama or a guilty conscience. I don't want to see laws and fines go against common sense and hit someone who is pushing along with his feet at a snails pace but yes hit the idiots hard.

galwaycyclist · 07-11-2011 6:27pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Do collected fines go to the State's coffers or are the takings ring-fenced in some way?

If they go to the State, it could be a bit of a money spinner if they ramped up enforcement but the fines would need to imposed on the spot for it to be worthwhile. I don't think that the fines would cover the costs of the legal procedings in the current setup.

This is part of the problem in Ireland. In the US the traffic fines go to the local county so the county police are paying their own wages by collecting traffic infringements.

Here the Guards have jobs for life either way and the fines go to central government.

Different sets of motivations

monkeypants · 07-11-2011 6:31pm

I'd like to thank the OP for this thread, some of it is comedy gold.

jin.ie wrote: »

Since when do you go to court for going through a red light??

jin.ie wrote: »

Yes but since when do cyclists always follow the same rules as motorists?

jin.ie wrote: »

If the path is clear you go, do you stop for every single red light?

jin.ie wrote: »

who reads the rules of the road when you're a cyclist?

seamus · 07-11-2011 6:32pm

psychward wrote: »

I don't see why people can't cycle across Grafton Street for example to cut across one way systems.

Because a very simple solution already exists for that scenario - jump off and push.

While I hate when cyclists are treated like "fast pedestrians" in some cases - such as being asked to "dismount" at roadworks and push your bike for the next 750m, there are also certain instances where it's perfectly reasonable to be asked to hop off, push your bike 10m across a path and then jump on again to join another road. This doesn't require any new laws or special consideration, but it should make people on bikes think that when they're on a bike, they're not a pedestrian and so shouldn't try to act like one.

My main issue is where any road users are given less or more rights than another. If you allow cyclists to break certain laws in some circumstances, then you just enforce the idea that cars should be entitled to treat cyclists differently to other traffic.

psychward · 07-11-2011 6:47pm

seamus wrote: »

Because a very simple solution already exists for that scenario - jump off and push.

It's against common sense however if there is nobody on the street to hit even if you wanted to. And at early morning times when there are often very few people there are lots of heavy goods vehicles. Why should heavy vans and cars be able to drive around Grafton Street at this time yet careful cyclists be penalized ?

seamus wrote: »

My main issue is where any road users are given less or more rights than another. If you allow cyclists to break certain laws in some circumstances, then you just enforce the idea that cars should be entitled to treat cyclists differently to other traffic.

Road users will always be in different classes,motorbikes, cars, lorries, taxis, buses etc and have different rules apply to them regarding usage of bus lanes, right turns from Georges Street onto Dame Street etc etc. So they all don't have equal rights and never will. Cyclists exists on a spectrum closest to pedestrians. Theres no excuse for dangerous driving. Of course applying the law with common sense as it's driving principle assumes we have enforcers i.e Guards and lawmakers who are intelligent enough to make the distinction.

check_six · 07-11-2011 7:03pm

psychward wrote: »

It's against common sense however if there is nobody on the street to hit even if you wanted to. And at early morning times when there are often very few people there are lots of heavy goods vehicles. Why should heavy vans and cars be able to drive around Grafton Street at this time yet careful cyclists be penalized ?

I thought cyclists were allowed on Grafton St up till 11am? Am I mistaken?

psychward · 07-11-2011 7:10pm

check_six wrote: »

I thought cyclists were allowed on Grafton St up till 11am? Am I mistaken?

If they are that would make life a lot less complex for me.

jin.ie · 07-11-2011 8:20pm

Ha Monkeypants
I'm glad you think it's funny, but that's my opinion on the rules for bicycles in Ireland, you can go cross the road on a red light while walking your bike and the Garda wouldn't really care but if you cycle through slowly they stop you.
Why do you have to waste your time going to court? no option of an on the spot fine?
I've seen loads of people cycle through Grafton street, with the Gards present even when it's busy. and I've cycled on footpaths loads of times, it's safer than some of these f**ckin roads in Dublin, especially the roads where loads of cars are parked in the bicycle lanes!

wannabe7a I got stopped this morning as well. Was going through a red pedestrian crossing light after the pedestrians had gone. Cycled slowly through the red light (in my defense). I got away with a warning but next time it will be the court.

Does anybody know what the fine will be for going through red light?

ps. my opinion is that there should be different degrees of fines for going through red.

You got lucky!

ps.

Doom

you're going to an organ doner soon

what a nice comment you prick. I usually don't get pissed off but I had to say it.

Beasty · 07-11-2011 8:27pm

jin.ie wrote: »

what a nice comment you prick. I usually don't get pissed off but I had to say it.

And next time you say something like that you'll be getting a holiday from the forum

Beasty

jin.ie · 07-11-2011 8:44pm

Fair enough,
sorry just can't stand other people's nasty comments!

Doctor Bob · 07-11-2011 8:51pm

OP: You mentioned two junctions- one on Camden Street and one in Ranelagh. Which two exactly, and which directions were you going?

dave2pvd · 07-11-2011 8:57pm

Oldlegs wrote: »

"Right Turn on Red" is great. But I wonder would the "4-way stop" ever have a chance here in Ireland. It would be great to try it for a few weeks just to see the antics of competing drivers

For anyone not familiar with the concept. It is basically a crossroad junction where ALL have to stop. If multiple drivers are at the junction you take it in turns to pass through. Works if every one plays by the rules. Chaos otherwise.

Also gives rise to the concept of a "rolling stop" where if traffic is light you may not want to come to a complete stop, so you slow down, have a quick look and continue on. Great place to pick up a few traffic tickets

The 'American roundabout'. Confuses the hell out of Irish tourists.

dave2pvd · 07-11-2011 9:00pm

psychward wrote: »

In the states at least in San Fran I seem to remember cars could turn a corner slowly even if there was a red light but always had to give right of way.

In some states, yes. Not all.

Plus, you have to come to a complete stop before proceeding. [SARCASM]But only if there's a cop nearby[/SARCASM]

Bicycle fines for running a red light?

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