British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

ejmaztec · 25-10-2011 06:30PM

RMD wrote: »

In fairness the UVF could have beaten the IRA during the early 20's. The IRA were poorly armed and had little funding, the UVF on the other hand had a fairly decent arm cache, money to use and the British empire on their side. There's a reason Collins accepted the Anglo-Irish treaty, he knew the IRA didn't have the capacity to fight on.

I think that interested parties would have made their way to Ireland to back up each side (returning emigrants with guns, financial backing and opposing views). It wouldn't have just been those resident on the island at the time taking part. There would have been carnage.

The British could have tipped the balance, by "lending" equipment to their favoured side, in the same way that they allowed the pro-treaty forces access to this equipment (artillery, armoured cars etc) during the civil war.

Morlar · 25-10-2011 06:34PM

I have asked the question earlier on, maybe the 'Pro- Red Poppy British Legion' side of the discussion can address it ?

Morlar wrote: »

The British army record in Ireland is one of murder and oppression, why can't the sensitivity of this issue should be acknowledged by those in favour of the Poppy ?

There is no pressing need for Irish people to wear a red poppy to remember our War Dead, we can do this perfectly well in our own way, so I don't understand the need to try and push this on Irish people. It seems to be more about pushing the British Legion red Poppy than it is about remembering the Irish War Dead.

partyguinness · 25-10-2011 06:45PM

Well I am an Irish man living in the UK for the past 18 mts.

From what I can see, the whole poppy day is basically historical guilt. The fact that the UK gov sent thousands and thousands of young men to their slaughter in WWI for absolutley no reason.

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths. By focusing on Poppy Day it prevents criticism and stifles debate because to question the armed forces is unheard of. This suits official Britain because to raise questions will inevitably question the involvement in Iraq and Afganistan which you cannot do over here. "They are Heros etc etc".

Being trained to kill and envading sovereign countries that pose no threat to the UK does not make you a "hero". They may be brave but they are not heros.

WWI deaths were pointless. There I said it. Half expecting the secret service to bang on the door at any minute now.

Poppy Day is a visual representation of this guilt.

KeithAFC · 25-10-2011 06:50PM

No (I'm British/not Irish)

partyguinness wrote: »

Well I am an Irish man living in the UK for the past 18 mts.

From what I can see, the whole poppy day is basically historical guilt. The fact that the UK gov sent thousands and thousands of young men to their slaughter in WWI for absolutley no reason.

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths. By focusing on Poppy Day it prevents criticism and stifles debate because to question the armed forces is unheard of. This suits official Britain because to raise questions will inevitably question the involvement in Iraq and Afganistan which you cannot do over here. "They are Heros etc etc".

Being trained to kill and envading sovereign countries that pose no threat to the UK does not make you a "hero". They may be brave but they are not heros.

WWI deaths were pointless. There I said it. Half expecting the secret service to bang on the door at any minute now.

Poppy Day is a visual representation of this guilt.

I think a lot of people actually do recognise that to some degree but remembrance day is more about remembering the fallen.

partyguinness · 25-10-2011 07:01PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a lot of people actually do recognise that to some degree but remembrance day is more about remembering the fallen.

I agree. But from my experience over here it is also used to stifle debate and criticisms because otherise is an insult or sully the memory of those who died. It is a very subtle form of censorship that suits the officials as the army needs fresh meat on an ongoing basis. I have been very surprised by it.

I used to bang on about it to my wife (who by the way is English and wears a poppy every year) and she would tell my I was paranoid, bitter, chip on the shoulder etc etc. Now she actually sees it herself and where she once poo pooed me she is herself shocked that she had been so blind to it.

Commemorate the war dead by all means and nothing wrong with that but my problem is where debate and constructive analysis is prohibited and dare I say censored.

The Poppy Fascists will be out again. Guests and hosts on the BBC are not allowed on unless they wear a poppy. That is very very wrong.

indough · 25-10-2011 07:12PM

partyguinness wrote: »

I agree. But from my experience over here it is also used to stifle debate and criticisms because otherise is an insult or sully the memory of those who died. It is a very subtle form of censorship that suits the officials as the army needs fresh meat on an ongoing basis. I have been very surprised by it.

I used to bang on about it to my wife (who by the way is English and wears a poppy every year) and she would tell my I was paranoid, bitter, chip on the shoulder etc etc. Now she actually sees it herself and where she once poo pooed me she is herself shocked that she had been so blind to it.

Commemorate the war dead by all means and nothing wrong with that but my problem is where debate and constructive analysis is prohibited and dare I say censored.

The Poppy Fascists will be out again. Guests and hosts on the BBC are not allowed on unless they wear a poppy. That is very very wrong.

perhaps you have never seen this little gem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJDyAnL9RQ

thats bbc by the way

i think you may be missing the point a little. people wear the poppies to commemorate the dead soldiers, its not really got anything to do with the politics of any of the wars involved, which lots of people would disagree with but still wear the things

Immaculate Pasta · 25-10-2011 07:13PM

Yes (I'm Irish)

Right I’m British I suppose (I consider myself English though), and come from an Irish background.

I believe the Irish shouldn’t be expected to wear the poppy at all. It’s commemorating the British army who have a disgusting history in Ireland. I myself refuse to wear one based on Britain’s history and continued occupation of Ireland.

The poppy some argue is for all wars, including WW2, but it’s been taken over now and has become far too political. Tabloids have an intense media campaign over here that everyone has to be supporting “our lads” over in Iraq and Afghanistan and they’re heroes and everything. The bottom line is they’re not. For one the British Army shouldn’t even be in Iraq or Afghanistan and I struggle to support an institution which has an awful track record of treating civilians wherever it goes. People in the British Army get found out torturing Iraqi civilians (not to mention the ones in Ireland) and it just gets brushed under the carpet and people aren’t held accountable for their actions. Since WW2, I really struggle to consider the British Army a respectable institution so simply I don’t want to support it.

It is very political over here in England and it’s considered unpatriotic not to wear one around Remembrance Day. But the people who died for us in WW2 died for us to have freedom and the choice over whether we wanted to do something or not. I remember at school here everyone was forced to wear a poppy for Remembrance Day assembly and I got detention after school for refusing to wear one. It kind of defeats the point if the public are being indoctrinated into wearing something to support a government’s oil war. The widespread British media condemnation of Celtic’s protest against the poppy last year pretty much just sums up the pettiness of it all.

If you want to wear one, wear one. I have no problem with it. But nobody should be expected to wear anything they don’t want to, it’s a free society ffs. If someone in your family who died in the army while serving, British or Irish, and want to commemorate them, I have no problem with it. Growing up in an Irish family in England, joining the British army just isn’t the done thing. Especially the stories you hear that went on back in the homeland and the racism in England during the Troubles that my family had to endure. My Grandfather served in the Irish Army and my Great Grandfather was in the army for the Emergency in WW2. If I really wanted to join the army I would join the Irish army which my family has a proud history of serving in, I wouldn’t want to join an institution which is responsible for a horrible history from the country my family come from and still has a dodgy track record today.

partyguinness · 25-10-2011 07:22PM

indough wrote: »

perhaps you have never seen this little gem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJDyAnL9RQ

thats bbc by the way

i think you may be missing the point a little. people wear the poppies to commemorate the dead soldiers, its not really got anything to do with the politics of any of the wars involved, which lots of people would disagree with but still wear the things

TBH I am not going to watch a comedy sketch on youtube...plus that is several years old. It has got a lot more in your face in the last 2-3 years. Believe me I know exactly why it is worn. The point I am raising is about the poppy police that restrict and shout down any criticisms.

Plus on a general point, official little England is wallowing in the past totally obsessed about the good old days...but that's another thread.

4leto · 25-10-2011 07:29PM

We should at least thank the British for protecting us against the NAZIs who wanted to enslave the population and turn Ireland into the greenhouse of the Arian race.

partyguinness · 25-10-2011 07:40PM

4leto wrote: »

We should at least thank the British for protecting us against the NAZIs who wanted to enslave the population and turn Ireland into the greenhouse of the Arian race.

Well I think the British were protecting themselve plus dont forget they played a large part in creating the conditions in Germany that allowed the Nazis to emerge in the first place.

Looking at their cars, Xmas markets and football team, it doesnt seem like such a bad idea seeing what we have done to the country by ourselves...;)

R P McMurphy · 25-10-2011 07:42PM

4leto wrote: »

We should at least thank the British for protecting us against the NAZIs who wanted to enslave the population and turn Ireland into the greenhouse of the Arian race.

Big shout out to Stalin and the rooskies as well

ejmaztec · 25-10-2011 07:46PM

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Big shout out to Stalin and the rooskies as well

Good job they stayed put, or they would have turned Ireland into a gulag.:eek:

4leto · 25-10-2011 07:46PM

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Big shout out to Stalin and the rooskies as well

Ahh but as Hitler was over running western Europe Russia was its ally and it was only Britain between us and horror.

The Norwegians send them a christmas tree, we should at least decorate it.

Morlar · 25-10-2011 07:50PM

4leto wrote: »

Ahh but as Hitler was over running western Europe Russia was its ally and it was only Britain between us and horror.

The Norwegians send them a christmas tree, we should at least decorate it.

You do know the biggest threat to invasion of Ireland during ww2 came from Britain right ? I mean you are aware of the basic history ~?

4leto · 25-10-2011 07:52PM

Morlar wrote: »

You do know the biggest threat to invasion of Ireland during ww2 came from Britain right ? I mean you are aware of the basic history ~?

Only because Britain didn't capitulate, besides they didn't, but its safe to say Hitler would have.

Dyr · 25-10-2011 07:57PM

4leto wrote: »

Only because Britain didn't capitulate, besides they didn't, but its safe to say Hitler would have.

They did'nt invade because there was a strong lobby in the states that kept the american govt against the idead

4leto · 25-10-2011 08:05PM

Bambi wrote: »

They did'nt invade because there was a strong lobby in the states that kept the american govt against the idead

Not really, they basically got what they wanted, they didn't get the ports but they got the airspace over Donegal to fight the Atlantic war, plus our observational information on movements of German craft along our coast. Also a lot of our food exports

Churchill hadn't the resources to take our ports, they were busier elsewhere. Its a pointless discussion when discussing history what would have happened "IF".

Its like trying to predict the future all you will get is unforeseen events, if you are trying to predict what would have happened if its the same you will never know.

partyguinness · 25-10-2011 09:25PM

I am just glad that we can have this debate in Ireland. Admitedly it's the same old arguments every year with people racking their brains back to their Leaving Cert history classes..;)

Living in the UK I cannot find anywhere to discuss the matter. The Poppy Police are everywhere.

drakshug · 25-10-2011 09:51PM

Ye know, before I moved to Ireland the poppy question would never have crossed my mind. Id never thought anyone in Ireland would wear one and would even give a f***k about it.
Turns out they do as this annual boards debate shows.
Just let those who want to, wear one, not as part of British imperial jingoism but as a mark of respect to those who fell and the hope that the futility of war will end.
As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

Fratton Fred · 25-10-2011 09:52PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Well I am an Irish man living in the UK for the past 18 mts.

From what I can see, the whole poppy day is basically historical guilt. The fact that the UK gov sent thousands and thousands of young men to their slaughter in WWI for absolutley no reason.

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths. By focusing on Poppy Day it prevents criticism and stifles debate because to question the armed forces is unheard of. This suits official Britain because to raise questions will inevitably question the involvement in Iraq and Afganistan which you cannot do over here. "They are Heros etc etc".

Being trained to kill and envading sovereign countries that pose no threat to the UK does not make you a "hero". They may be brave but they are not heros.

WWI deaths were pointless. There I said it. Half expecting the secret service to bang on the door at any minute now.

Poppy Day is a visual representation of this guilt.

What you are saying there is practically history 101 in England. Have you not heard the lions led by donkeys phrase?

To me and millions of others, that is even more reason to buy a poppy.

But, as I said earlier (I think) I can fully understand why Irish people may not wish to wear one.

partyguinness · 25-10-2011 10:09PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What you are saying there is practically history 101 in England. Have you not heard the lions led by donkeys phrase?

To me and millions of others, that is even more reason to buy a poppy.

But, as I said earlier (I think) I can fully understand why Irish people may not wish to wear one.

It's a shame more people do not take history 101.....

I am not disagreeing with you but my issue is that the annual poppy day services are being used to stifle debate and criticism. The TV channels trying to outdo each other with the size of their poppies. By saying that it is about the individual soldiers is all well and good but I see a much more sinister slant/hijacking of the event.

At social events or general chats I find myself being the most knowledgable person on English history. I just find it remarkable that people I come across in the UK wear poppies without giving any real thought as to why they are wearing one...there is a herd mentality which is wrong.

But I guess the English in general (well the white middle class anyway) are far more obedient when it comes to rules and regulations which, ironically is prob a legacy from WWI and WWII and the more prominent position of the military in British culture.

ps Interestingly the army have started a recruitment drive at the moment for infantry...just a coincidence I am sure..;)

partyguinness · 25-10-2011 10:22PM

drakshug wrote: »

Ye know, before I moved to Ireland the poppy question would never have crossed my mind. Id never thought anyone in Ireland would wear one and would even give a f***k about it.
Turns out they do as this annual boards debate shows.
Just let those who want to, wear one, not as part of British imperial jingoism but as a mark of respect to those who fell and the hope that the futility of war will end.
As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

You are right. Nobody(well most people) in Ireland gives a crap except the likes of Kevin Myers and his fetish for the "Great War".

I personally could not care less if somebody wants to wear a poppy and it is not an anti Irish thing. Nothing to do with us.

Yes many Irishmen joined the British army during WWI, it was a foreign army, under a foreign monarch fighting a foreign (imperial) war. That was their choice and if people want to wear poppies to remember them...let them at it.

A Dub in Glasgo · 25-10-2011 10:29PM

drakshug wrote: »

As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

You have it easy, as an Irishman living in Scotland I nearly got lynched for wearing an Easter Lilly one Easter

jpm4 · 25-10-2011 10:30PM

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths.

Pretty much everything you have said above is the default populist view of the war, so you saying "you can't say that" makes no sense as it has been said countless times in documentaries, books, newspaper articles, etc.

The modern view of the war is that it was pointless, and with the benefit of hindsight and endless amounts of literature it's an easy point of view to reach. Maybe it was.( I think the people of the occupied regions of France and Belgium might not have agreed). But this view trivialises an enormously complex affair which many people seem to think they are an expert on after watching a few episodes of Blackadder Goes Forth. It deserves so much more consideration than that.

scudzilla · 25-10-2011 10:42PM

No (I'm Irish)

I'd vote Yes, if it wasn't for them we'd all be speaking German now.

Fighting Irish · 25-10-2011 10:46PM

Whatever

Richard · 25-10-2011 11:36PM

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Whatever

My response is "Only if they want to".

drakshug · 26-10-2011 06:54AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

drakshug wrote: »

As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

You have it easy, as an Irishman living in Scotland I nearly got lynched for wearing an Easter Lilly one Easter

I didn't even know what the significance of an Easter lily was until I moved here and I doubt many Scots do.

getz · 26-10-2011 07:47AM

No (I'm British/not Irish)

as a englishman i had never even heard of the easter lilly,as for buying a poppy in ireland,why not ?you dont have to wear it,what you are doing is putting money in a collection to look after irishmen and their families that are in need who once were in the british army,all the money that is collected in ireland,stays in ireland,at the end of the day ,it is a charity.

LordSutch · 26-10-2011 10:08AM

No (I'm Irish)

partyguinness wrote: »

You are right. Nobody(well most people) in Ireland gives a crap except the likes of Kevin Myers and his fetish for the "Great War".

I personally could not care less if somebody wants to wear a poppy and it is not an anti Irish thing. Nothing to do with us.

Jezus, where do they get them :rolleyes:

Either you live in a parrallel universe, or you are too young to know any better? I live in Dublin & I wear the Poppy every year to commerate my Irish grandad and the fifty thousand other Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, we also commerate all the other people who died in the two world wars. the Poppy is the perfect symbol to commerate the futility of war, and the reason the poppy is used is because that is what grows on Flanders Fields, where so many good Irish, British, Canadian, American, & German men died . . . . .

Come the week leading up to the 11th/Nov I will as usual be wearing my poppy on the streets of Dublin as a mark of respect to those who died for our freedom against the tyranny of the enemy, in the Great War & World War II. On the 11th/Nov I will be attending 'St patricks Cathedral Dublin' to mark the Armistice itself which was signed at the 11th hour, on the 11th Day, of the 11th Month (the President usually attends), and on the nearest Sunday to the 11th, my local Parish Church in South Dublin will also hold a service of commeration, poppies will be worn by most of the congregation & the last post played by a lone bugler as the names of the fallen 'from that parish' are read out . . . . . . .

Every year we get a thread about this, and every year its learning time again (for some) who are either too young to know about the poppy, or who missed some of their history lessons in school.

British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

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