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British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

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Comments

  • #212
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Morlar wrote: »
    I think the Irish men who served in WW1 & WW2 should be honoured, but not in a way that involves any element of Irish people honouring the black and tans/paras, UDR, etc.

    I agree, maybe a green poppy perhaps, but that one carries a lot of baggage that I have no time for.


  • #213
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    No (I'm Irish)
    westdub15 wrote: »
    The men who fight in Iraq are no braver than you or me. They are doing a job that was probably the only one available to them on their council estates. Its what they signed up for, in WW1 and WW2 they were fighting for their country and freedom in general that should be honored, what are they fighting for in Iraq?

    You couldn't have got it more wrong,the British Army is Diverse consisting of just as many middle class as working class people.Many people choose a career in the British army solely on the career aspect in contrast to civilian life from all classes.It just so happens that many working class choose infantry due to the low educational entry requirements,which is what we see most as opposed to the other corps,REME,RMP,Medics etc etc.A person can join the Army and leave with a degree.


  • #214
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    If a family member joins a foreign army they're a mercenary, I can think of other worthy causes like poor families who don't take up a career in killing for another country:rolleyes:

    And people who go and live abroad and pay taxes to the nasty imperialist government who pay the wages of those nasty imperialist soldiers?


  • #215
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    And people who go and live abroad and pay taxes to the nasty imperialist government who pay the wages of those nasty imperialist soldiers?

    I have a son here hence why I live here, not that that's any of your business.

    I'm not anti any particular country, just like I despise US foreign policy and their funding of Israel, but hay I like New York so I'll go there on holiday if I fecking well like and feel like it.

    If that's the best you can do, jog on with yourself:D


  • #216
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,300 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    An uncle of mine was a "mercenary" in the RAF for twenty odd years. He taught secretarial and admin staff, the murdering bastard.


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  • #217
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    The British army record in Ireland is one of murder and oppression, why can't the sensitivity of this issue should be acknowledged by those in favour of the Poppy ?

    There is no pressing need for Irish people to wear a red poppy to remember our War Dead, we can do this perfectly well in our own way, so I don't understand the need to try and push this on Irish people. It seems to be more about pushing the British Legion red Poppy than it is about remembering the Irish War Dead.


  • #218
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    No (I'm Irish)
    I'm pretty sure the Irish government ignored them, pretended they didn't exist, so it was charities like the British Legion which helped them out.

    Should we commemorate them? Probably not. But the British Legion allows people to support them.
    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    If a family member joins a foreign army they're a mercenary, I can think of other worthy causes like poor families who don't take up a career in killing for another country:rolleyes:
    Up until when the vietnam war when it was televised, war was seen in a "romantic" view. This, coupled with the fact that families needed money got people to sign up. Various tools of propaganda (mainly posters) were used to ensure this. People who join now know for the most part that war can be ugly, but in the "good ole days" war was sometimes seen as a well paid adventure that manily men should do.


  • #219
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    I have a son here hence why I live here, not that that's any of your business.

    I'm not anti any particular country, just like I despise US foreign policy and their funding of Israel, but hay I like New York so I'll go there on holiday if I fecking well like and feel like it.

    If that's the best you can do, jog on with yourself:D

    I don't really care why you're in England tbh.


  • #220
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    the_syco wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the Irish government ignored them, pretended they didn't exist, so it was charities like the British Legion which helped them out.

    Considering Ireland had seen a Rising, a War of Independence and a Civil war all directly or indirectly as a result of British interference in this land then it's not a great surprise that the Irish state ignored Irish men who served in British uniform post WW1. The men who returned from the trenches for the most part had to hide their medals and some were actually blacklisted from county council employment.

    Re-dressing that does not require a Red British Legion Poppy. Wearing that would also be in honour of the black and tans and bloody sunday paras & I think it's possible to remember and respect the sacrifice of Irish men during WW1 & WW2 without a red poppy.


  • #221
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    No (I'm Irish)
    Morlar wrote: »
    Considering Ireland had seen a Rising, a War of Independence and a Civil war all directly or indirectly as a result of British interference in this land then it's not a great surprise that the Irish state ignored Irish men who served in British uniform post WW1. The men who returned from the trenches for the most part had to hide their medals and some were actually blacklisted from county council employment.

    Re-dressing that does not require a Red British Legion Poppy. Wearing that would also be in honour of the black and tans and bloody sunday paras & I think it's possible to remember and respect the sacrifice of Irish men during WW1 & WW2 without a red poppy.

    perhaps a green poppy with proceeds split half to the Defence forces and half to the micks?


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  • #222
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I don't really care why you're in England tbh.

    I'm not in England, the soon to be independent Scotland if polls are to be believed;)

    Either way you commented on it when I made a point of someone going to another country to fight in wars and kill people. So if you don't care about something don't comment on it and be an idiot making a stupid irrelevant point.


  • #223
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    No (I'm Irish)
    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    I'm not in England, the soon to be independent Scotland if polls are to be believed;)

    Either way you commented on it when I made a point of someone going to another country to fight in wars and kill people. So if you don't care about something don't comment on it and be an idiot making a stupid irrelevant point.

    Scottish nationalists,a great bunch of lads who love the Irish :rolleyes:


  • #224
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    pmcmahon wrote: »
    Scottish nationalists,a great bunch of lads who love the Irish :rolleyes:

    They have nowt against us. I have friends who are members of the SNP and have attended their annual Bannockburn commemoration many a time. Good party and doing a good job in government, which was reflected in their whitewash of Labour in the last election.:)


  • #225
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    I'm not in England, the soon to be independent Scotland if polls are to be believed;)

    Either way you commented on it when I made a point of someone going to another country to fight in wars and kill people. So if you don't care about something don't comment on it and be an idiot making a stupid irrelevant point.

    It is as irrelevant as your commentary about mercenaries to be honest.

    You moved to Scotland because it provided something you couldn't get at home, just like thousands of Irish people who have joined foreign militaries over the years.

    They are no more a bunch of mercenaries than you are for moving abroad or any other people who go chasing fame and fortune on the mainland.


  • #226
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Morlar wrote: »
    Considering Ireland had seen a Rising, a War of Independence and a Civil war all directly or indirectly as a result of British interference in this land then it's not a great surprise that the Irish state ignored Irish men who served in British uniform post WW1. The men who returned from the trenches for the most part had to hide their medals and some were actually blacklisted from county council employment.

    Re-dressing that does not require a Red British Legion Poppy. Wearing that would also be in honour of the black and tans and bloody sunday paras & I think it's possible to remember and respect the sacrifice of Irish men during WW1 & WW2 without a red poppy.

    I love the way the British get blamed for the civil war.

    All those years of burning, raping, beating and mass murder by the black and tans and yet in six years they killed a fraction of the number killed in the 18 month civil war.

    No wonder you want to blame someone else for it.


  • #227
    stewie01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭stewie01


    why was there a civil war fred???


  • #228
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    stewie01 wrote: »
    why was there a need for a civil war fred???

    Because Dev wanted to be king


  • #229
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It is as irrelevant as your commentary about mercenaries to be honest.

    We’ re talking about Irish people going to join the British Army, they’re mercenaries so it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Please keep up, Dear.
    You moved to Scotland because it provided something you couldn't get at home, just like thousands of Irish people who have joined foreign militaries over the years.

    I moved to Scotland in 2004 because of a relationship I had, nothing to do with work, I was in full employment when I left Ireland, as I’ve always been and earned more money in Ireland than I have ever in Scotland. Don’t compare me with idiots who join up foreign armies to go to wars because they want the ‘buzz’ of it all because the IDF can’t offer it. Those sad pathetic war fanatics are nothing like me – thank God.
    They are no more a bunch of mercenaries than you are for moving abroad or any other people who go chasing fame and fortune on the mainland

    The mainland? Another Irishman with an inferiority complex.:D


  • #230
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    No (I'm Irish)
    stewie01 wrote: »
    why was there a civil war fred???

    because Ireland was built divided?,bunch of idiots from day one?,Backstabbing? shall i continue?


  • #231
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    We’ re talking about Irish people going to join the British Army, they’re mercenaries so it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Please keep up, Dear.

    I moved to Scotland in 2004 because of a relationship I had, nothing to do with work, I was in full employment when I left Ireland, as I’ve always been and earned more money in Ireland than I have ever in Scotland. Don’t compare me with idiots who join up foreign armies to go to wars because they want the ‘buzz’ of it all because the IDF can’t offer it. Those sad pathetic war fanatics are nothing like me – thank God.

    They aren't mercenaries and no, the Irish defence force can provide only a small part of what a lot of people are after, even ignoring for a minute the wars the BA gets involved in.


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  • #232
    stewie01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭stewie01


    pmcmahon wrote: »
    because Ireland was built divided?,bunch of idiots from day one?,Backstabbing? shall i continue?


    no please dont. your BS stinks to high heaven.


  • #233
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    No (I'm Irish)
    stewie01 wrote: »
    no please dont. your BS stinks to high heaven.

    the truth stinks alright.


  • #234
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I love the way the British get blamed for the civil war.

    All those years of burning, raping, beating and mass murder by the black and tans and yet in six years they killed a fraction of the number killed in the 18 month civil war.

    No wonder you want to blame someone else for it.

    Of course they're to blame for the civil war. The Irish people in 1918 declared what they wanted - Independence. The British denied the people what they wanted and set in place a chain of events that led to a civil war largely by them employing the sectarian tactic of partitioning a country through a sectarian head-count.

    Britain respects the wishes of the majority, as they tell every one else to do when it suits them, then there's no civil war. Doing the honourable thing isn't really what they did back then though:rolleyes:


  • #235
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    pmcmahon wrote: »
    because Ireland was built divided?,bunch of idiots from day one?,Backstabbing? shall i continue?

    The reason there was a Civil War in Ireland was Britain offered the choice of a divided country, or a Total War.

    Knowing it would divide the opposition so that if the War of Independence did continue they would face a weakened foe.

    If the War of Independence did not continue they would hold territory.

    Divide and Conquer, as ever, leaving a trail of absolute destruction behind it.


  • #236
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Because Dev wanted to be king

    You could really do with a lesson in Irish history.


  • #237
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    They aren't mercenaries and no, the Irish defence force can provide only a small part of what a lot of people are after, even ignoring for a minute the wars the BA gets involved in.

    Of course they are. You read the thing on the Irish who join the British Army on TV a few years ago? They want combat. Killing people basically. The IDF didn't offer that. What sick minds.

    Hate to go all technical on you, but just to put you in your place, here's the definition of a mercenary in a dictionary....

    Definition of MERCENARY
    : one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service




    Oh dear......CLAMPED:D


  • #238
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    No (I'm Irish)
    Morlar wrote: »
    The reason there was a Civil War in Ireland was Britain offered the choice of a divided country, or a Total War.
    I'm not talking about the county Divide but the Divide within the parties and people involved,whether people like it or not from the roots of 1916 up to the end civil war it was every man for himself,one example of this is how Pearse and Connolly despised each other,yet in the history books they're portrayed as best pals,fighting for the common goal,however they had no common goal.Connolly was pretty much a communist.
    Morlar wrote: »
    Knowing it would divide the opposition so that if the War of Independence did continue they would face a weakened foe.
    Dev knew before Collins even went over to London there wasn't a chance of a 32 county republic,Collins was the fall guy.


  • #239
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    I'm not talking about the county Divide but the Divide within the parties and people involved,whether people like it or not from the roots of 1916 up to the end civil war it was every man for himself,one example of this is how Pearse and Connolly despised each other,yet in the history books they're portrayed as best pals,fighting for the common goal,however they had no common goal.Connolly was pretty much a communist.

    What books have you read? I've been a demon for books on 1916 and I've never read that. Can you point me in the direction of the books where that was even implied? They had no common goal? Eh?
    Dev knew before Collins even went over to London there wasn't a chance of a 32 county republic,Collins was the fall guy

    Like I said, Britain caused the civil war by neglecting the wishes of the Irish people. We all know Dev was a devious so and so, that's not what we're discussing. You and your cohorts are condoning an occupying country ignoring the wishes of the people.


  • #240
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    No (I'm British/not Irish)
    pmcmahon wrote: »
    I'm not talking about the county Divide but the Divide within the parties and people involved,whether people like it or not from the roots of 1916 up to the end civil war it was every man for himself,one example of this is how Pearse and Connolly despised each other,yet in the history books they're portrayed as best pals,fighting for the common goal,however they had no common goal.Connolly was pretty much a communist.


    Dev knew before Collins even went over to London there wasn't a chance of a 32 county republic,Collins was the fall guy.
    Collins must have known that too, hell the IRA at the time must have known that they weren't going to get a United Ireland. Unless they thought the Protestant Unionists would just give up?


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  • #241
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,300 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    Like I said, Britain caused the civil war by neglecting the wishes of the Irish people. We all know Dev was a devious so and so, that's not what we're discussing. You and your cohorts are condoning an occupying country ignoring the wishes of the people.

    Had the British handed the entire island over, the ensuing punch-up would have made the Irish Civil War look like a slight argument.


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