Do we ignore animal cruelty to suit us?

archer22 · 13-10-2011 3:29pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Paddy fields are a huge source of greenhouse gases. I not sure about the needing more land thing, I don't have any sources on that, but then again, I doubt you do either

Do you have any sources for Paddy fields being a "huge source of greenhouse gasses".And I presume the Paddy fields you speak of are rice fields in far east not farmers fields in Ireland

.

Cupcake_Crisis · 13-10-2011 3:36pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

If you're are talking about Quorn and the like I'd suggest you get a new set of tastebuds

The sausages are muck, but some of it is actually lovely! Birdseye veggie burgers are amazing too!

--Kaiser-- · 13-10-2011 3:38pm

archer22 wrote: »

Do you have any sources for Paddy fields being a "huge source of greenhouse gasses".And I presume the Paddy fields you speak of are rice fields in far east not farmers fields in Ireland .

Yup

The main thrust of my argument that vegetarianism would not save the world is that animals can be grown locally with little impact to the environment. If no one is eating meat than a lot more grain crops will be needed to displace this food, needing more intensive crop farming, which is devastating to local eco-systems, add to that that growing the same crops on the same depleted soil requires more fertilizers, pesticides etc.....plus animals are still dying (combine harvesters, destruction of habitat and the like), they're just not being eaten.

archer22 · 13-10-2011 3:40pm

redzerologhlen wrote: »

True but it is off topic, Just too tempting to say nothing:). Everyone has a different opinion on this and there is no point in attacking anyone's beliefs or life choices. Personally I like meat and would be slow to eat a meal without it. Being a farmer I would also say that Irish cows and sheep live a fairly good life in most cases. I dont think there is a more humane way of killing them but killing an animal isint humane anyway is it?? People may have evovled enough to think for themselves but we still have to eat, We are omnivores after all. I know some people dont eat meat and that is their decision and should be respected. Saying that the world could grow more grain and things like that is a bit simplistic as a drought is never far away IMO. When people were at a different stage of evolution they wouldnt have thought killing something to eat it was wrong as they did not have the ability to think like that.....perhaps the human race has become so intelligent that it will be the downfall of itself......Rant over:D

Well Darwin gave Human evolution in the following stages (I am going from memory here) primitive man can only feel empathy for himself and his family..further up the evolutionary ladder is the man who can feel empathy for his own kind and finally,the most evolved...those who feel empathy for all living beings.

Local-womanizer · 13-10-2011 3:43pm

paddyandy wrote: »

Eating Meat makes your body stink....that's a fact.Healthy VEGETARIANS don't smell like meat eaters.Go into any Zoo and the places where meat eaters are kept & they smell much worse than the others....Smell for your self.....Also christianity has ignored the very severe prohibitions against Animal Cruelty in previous traditions.Notably the 7 noahide Laws.Many people will not eat a pig and some believe it causes crankiness because of the pigs temperament though that has not being proven as far as i know.Many believe the blood of an animal houses the spirit or soul not being proven either but some people's behaviour would make you wonder.Would eating lion flesh give me courage..i doubt it.Cruelty in the industrial and ordinary schools may well have stemmed from mistreatment of Animals first as a lot of the brothers and nuns came from Farming Backgrounds.There are plenty of websites and your answers may well be as good as mine but enquiry is useful and can be very interesting too.Ignorance is no excuse these days.

This is mad!

I also smell lovely.

--Kaiser-- · 13-10-2011 3:46pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

This is mad!

I also smell lovely.

Mad is just the word. Having read a few of this guy's posts I am genuinely concerned about his mental health

--Kaiser-- · 13-10-2011 3:47pm

archer22 wrote: »

Well Darwin gave Human evolution in the following stages (I am going from memory here) primitive man can only feel empathy for himself and his family..further up the evolutionary ladder is the man who can feel empathy for his own kind and finally,the most evolved...those who feel empathy for all living beings.

Therefore the most evolved man will be unable to kill any living thing ('living thing' including bacteria, fungi and plants) and thus kill himself to avoid causing the suffering of any other organism.

Give me a break

archer22 · 13-10-2011 3:48pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Yup

The main thrust of my argument that vegetarianism would not save the world is that animals can be grown locally with little impact to the environment. If no one is eating meat than a lot more grain crops will be needed to displace this food, needing more intensive crop farming, which is devastating to local eco-systems, add to that that growing the same crops on the same depleted soil requires more fertilizers, pesticides etc.....plus animals are still dying (combine harvesters, destruction of habitat and the like), they're just not being eaten.

Kaiser I can see your point.But what I am saying is that far less land would be needed in food production..provided there was sensible population control as well.Then perhaps we could set aside land for nature and not need to exploit it all.

Millicent · 13-10-2011 3:50pm

For all the Quorn fans out there (WHY?! Bleurgh!), give some Indian cooking a go. Those guys know how to do vegetarian without all the chemicals. Nom nom nom.

archer22 · 13-10-2011 3:51pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Therefore the most evolved man will be unable to kill any living thing ('living thing' including bacteria, fungi and plants) and thus kill himself to avoid causing the suffering of any other organism.

Give me a break

Thats just tearing the sh1t out of it!!.You know what it means and it said empathy which is not your version of it.

--Kaiser-- · 13-10-2011 3:54pm

archer22 wrote: »

Kaiser I can see your point.But what I am saying is that far less land would be needed in food production..provided there was sensible population control as well.Then perhaps we could set aside land for nature and not need to exploit it all.

Population is another issue entirely, to which universal vegetarianism is no solution. And I still am not convinced about the land thing

--Kaiser-- · 13-10-2011 3:57pm

archer22 wrote: »

Thats just tearing the sh1t out of it!!.You know what it means and it said empathy which is not your version of it.

OK, I was taking the piss.

Anyway, you can't live without killing things. You might not eat meat but animals were surely killed to make the food you eat. If you have a rat infestation, will you leave them be? If you children have lice should you leave them untreated? Why is one death acceptable but the other not?

At some stage you have admit to yourself that you are an animal, it is necessary that other animals have to die for you to exist.

softmee · 13-10-2011 4:04pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

So as humans do we really care enough for animals?

You could unfortunately answer yourself if people care after getting only 3 thanks..
No people don't care and don't want to know. They show their children pictures of smiling cows and then they feed them with veal..
I have seen today a herd of beautiful cows, some of them lying down, other walking around eating grass, lovely picture. Cows are such a lovely gentle animals, they are curious, they are intelligent - yet most of the people see them as a steak. The fact that we bread them only to kill in the end is hard for me to take. Killing is evil and it scares me. Most of the people couldnt watch a cow beeing killed, but they have no problem eating them..
This world is sad and I doubt it will change..

archer22 · 13-10-2011 4:05pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

OK, I was taking the piss.

Anyway, you can't live without killing things. You might not eat meat but animals were surely killed to make the food you eat. If you have a rat infestation, will you leave them be? If you children have lice should you leave them untreated? Why is one death acceptable but the other not?

At some stage you have admit to yourself that you are an animal, it is necessary that other animals have to die for you to exist.

I agree with you..you do have to kill rats etc if you got an infestation in your home and lice flies and so on...but that fact does not mean you have to go on a killing spree of everything that walks, flies, swims and crawls on the planet.

redzerologhlen · 13-10-2011 4:08pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

OK, I was taking the piss.

Anyway, you can't live without killing things. You might not eat meat but animals were surely killed to make the food you eat. If you have a rat infestation, will you leave them be? If you children have lice should you leave them untreated? Why is one death acceptable but the other not?

At some stage you have admit to yourself that you are an animal, it is necessary that other animals have to die for you to exist.

Its a man eat man world in the animal sense of it;)

It is wrong whats going on in the likes of the amazon though and i dont think anyone can dispute that but i dont think growing grain and turning the rest of the world into a nature reserve is sustainable either. Balance is key here and its difficult to say whats right or wrong. I for one would be very slow to put all my food into the ''crop basket'' it would only take one bad year or new crop disease to cause a famine.

--Kaiser-- · 13-10-2011 4:08pm

softmee wrote: »

You could unfortunately answer yourself if people care after getting only 3 thanks..
No people don't care and don't want to know. They show their children pictures of smiling cows and then they feed them with veal..
I have seen today a herd of beautiful cows, some of them lying down, other walking around eating grass, lovely picture. Cows are such a lovely gentle animals, they are curious, they are intelligent - yet most of the people see them as a steak. The fact that we bread them only to kill in the end is hard for me to take. Killing is evil and it scares me. Most of the people couldnt watch a cow beeing killed, but they have no problem eating them..
This world is sad and I doubt it will change..

Face. Palm.

The reason these lovely creature are walking around having such a good time is because they are domesticated and bred for slaughter. In the wild they would be subject to harsh winters, starvation and predation by vicious animals. As it is, the only low point in their life is when they go to an abattoir for a quiet, humane death. (This is all for pasture-fed beef, but I don't eat any other kind)

Actually your post is so stupid I suspect you're trolling

Tonyandthewhale · 13-10-2011 4:09pm

I hate when people say things like 'you wouldn't eat that meat if you knew where it came from and what those animals had to go through.' It's bullshit, I know that animals have to die for me to eat them, I've seen them being killed and would happily kill them myself if I had to. A captive bolt gun is a humane way to kill an animal, it collapses almost instanteniously unconscious. The squirming of the animals being pithed is a result of someone shoving a piece of metal through their brain, obviously this is going to come into contact with the various motor centres in the brain resulting in efferent nerve signals being sent throughout the body resulting in movement. There is however no reason to believe afferent nerve signals are being sent (and even if they were they couldn't be processed since the brain has been essentially mushed) so no pain can be felt.

Having said that, I try to avoid eating meat from outside Ireland or especially outside the EU since I don't know what they're animal cruelty laws and standards are like. I also try to avoid eating meat more than a few times a week, partly because you don't need much meat for a balanced diet and partly because, methane production in paddy fields aside, when it comes to the industrial farming practices that feed most of the world it's an awful lot more efficient in terms of land used and CO2 produced to produce grains and vegetables rather than beef.

A rising demand for meat in Europe, the US and now places like China mean farmers the world over are expanding their meat production often at the expense of natural habitats (eg Amazon rainforest) or existing tillage land. This obviously has detremental impacts on natural eco-systems as well as the price of food which is why the price of rice and other grains have risen to levels where many of the world's poorest can barely afford to eat.

I don't give a fuck about eating an animal that was reared on an Irish farm with plenty to eat and shelter in the depths of winter and an ultimatley human death (not saying it couldn't be more humane, that inert gas stuff looked interesting but present slaughter practices are far from barbaric). But I will think twice about eating meat if my levels of consumption prevent some peasants in India, south america or africa from eating anything at all.

redzerologhlen · 13-10-2011 4:12pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

I hate when people say things like 'you wouldn't eat that meat if you knew where it came from and what those animals had to go through.' It's bullshit, I know that animals have to die for me to eat them, I've seen them being killed and would happily kill them myself if I had to. A captive bolt gun is a humane way to kill an animal, it collapses almost instanteniously unconscious. The squirming of the animals being pithed is a result of someone shoving a piece of metal through their brain, obviously this is going to come into contact with the various motor centres in the brain resulting in efferent nerve signals being sent throughout the body resulting in movement. There is however no reason to believe afferent nerve signals are being sent (and even if they were they couldn't be processed since the brain has been essentially mushed) so no pain can be felt.

Having said that, I try to avoid eating meat from outside Ireland or especially outside the EU since I don't know what they're animal cruelty laws and standards are like. I also try to avoid eating meat more than a few times a week, partly because you don't need much meat for a balanced diet and partly because, methane production in paddy fields aside, when it comes to the industrial farming practices that feed most of the world it's an awful lot more efficient in terms of land used and CO2 produced to produce grains and vegetables rather than beef.

A rising demand for meat in Europe, the US and now places like China mean farmers the world over are expanding their meat production often at the expense of natural habitats (eg Amazon rainforest) or existing tillage land. This obviously has detremental impacts on natural eco-systems as well as the price of food which is why the price of rice and other grains have risen to levels where many of the world's poorest can barely afford to eat.

I don't give a fuck about eating an animal that was reared on an Irish farm with plenty to eat and shelter in the depths of winter and an ultimatley human death (not saying it couldn't be more humane, that inert gas stuff looked interesting but present slaughter practices are far from barbaric). But I will think twice about eating meat if my levels of consumption prevent some peasants in India, south america or africa from eating anything at all.

A good non-biased response. Thank you!!

super_furry · 13-10-2011 4:13pm

If animals didn't want to be eaten they shouldn't taste so good.

Local-womanizer · 13-10-2011 4:14pm

I often think that these people who cry animal cruelty have never set foot on an Irish farm, I could be wrong.

I have never seen cattle mistreated on a farm here in Ireland, in fact its quite the opposite. The amount of care and attention a farmer gives to his herd would set aside any fears of cruelty for me.

Likewise for the butchers they use.

softmee · 13-10-2011 4:14pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Face. Palm.

The reason these lovely creature are walking around having such a good time is because they are domesticated and bred for slaughter. In the wild they would be subject to harsh winters, starvation and predation by vicious animals. As it is, the only low point in their life is when they go to an abattoir for a quiet, humane death. (This is all for pasture-fed beef, but I don't eat any other kind)

Actually your post is so stupid I suspect you're trolling

There is no such a think like "quiet, humane death" and there is no point of having any discussion with you as you clearly have no empathy and imagination.

Tonyandthewhale · 13-10-2011 4:14pm

redzerologhlen wrote: »

It is wrong whats going on in the likes of the amazon though and i dont think anyone can dispute that but i dont think growing grain and turning the rest of the world into a nature reserve is sustainable either. Balance is key here and its difficult to say whats right or wrong. I for one would be very slow to put all my food into the ''crop basket'' it would only take one bad year or new crop disease to cause a famine.

No, no it wouldn't. You see we can grow more than one kind of crop. In fact we can grow hundreds or even thousands of different types of grains and vegetables, all with different resistances to different diseases. We can also use pesticides and even genetically engineer the plants we grow if needs be.

If it was through that one new 'crop disease' could wipe out all vegetation on the planet then I'm not sure how we'd be able to survive eating only animals that feed exclusively on crops such as grass.

softmee · 13-10-2011 4:16pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

I often think that these people who cry animal cruelty have never set foot on an Irish farm, I could be wrong.

I have never seen cattle mistreated on a farm here in Ireland, in fact its quite the opposite. The amount of care and attention a farmer gives to his herd would set aside any fears of cruelty for me.

Likewise for the butchers they use.

-and thats why I've seen cow with no water during summer day and sheep with little lamb with broken leg?

archer22 · 13-10-2011 4:16pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Face. Palm.

The reason these lovely creature are walking around having such a good time is because they are domesticated and bred for slaughter. In the wild they would be subject to harsh winters, starvation and predation by vicious animals. As it is, the only low point in their life is when they go to an abattoir for a quiet, humane death. (This is all for pasture-fed beef, but I don't eat any other kind)

Actually your post is so stupid I suspect you're trolling

No I do not think it was trolling,his point is a good one.Its the hypocrisy of portraying cows as cute adorable creatures to our children and then serving a piece cut out of the cow to them for dinner.Oh and there is no quiet humane death...no such thing as humane violence!

Tonyandthewhale · 13-10-2011 4:17pm

softmee wrote: »

There is no such a think like "quiet, humane death."

Why not? Do you know anything about modern slaughter house practices?
Do you know anything about the organisation of the central and perhiperal nervous systems?
Do you know anything about the levels of awareness and perceptions of pain exhibited by the various animals we eat?
And can you even properly define a 'quiet, humane, death' in order to categorically reject the notion?

Local-womanizer · 13-10-2011 4:19pm

softmee wrote: »

-and thats why I've seen cow with no water during summer day and sheep with little lamb with broken leg?

So did you sit and watch this 1 cow with no water all day or just see it in passing? Maybe he hose filling up the water was blocked and would soon be unblocked by the farmer.

Likewise with the little lamb and it's broken leg? Was it left in the field all week limping around? Or was it removed from the field as soon as the farmer realised it was injured?

Tonyandthewhale · 13-10-2011 4:19pm

softmee wrote: »

-and thats why I've seen cow with no water during summer day and sheep with little lamb with broken leg?

Do you think cows would have access to water 100% of the time if they weren't farmed for food or dairy?
Do you think lambs would never suffer from broken legs if we didn't like to eat them from time to time?

spurious nonsense.

softmee · 13-10-2011 4:21pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

Why not? Do you know anything about modern slaughter house practices?
Do you know anything about the organisation of the central and perhiperal nervous systems?

Yes I do actually.

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

And can you even properly define a 'quiet, humane, death' in order to categorically reject the notion?

I can't, because as you could read in my previous post I said IMO there is no such a think as "quiet death".
Every single living creature wants to stay alive and act of killing taking this life is always cruel -no matter how it's done.

softmee · 13-10-2011 4:23pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

Do you think cows would have access to water 100% of the time if they weren't farmed for food or dairy?
Do you think lambs would never suffer from broken legs if we didn't like to eat them from time to time?

spurious nonsense.

No, I don't , but if people keep them locked they should be responsible -not nature, because they cant go and search for water.

archer22 · 13-10-2011 4:23pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

I hate when people say things like 'you wouldn't eat that meat if you knew where it came from and what those animals had to go through.' It's bullshit, I know that animals have to die for me to eat them, I've seen them being killed and would happily kill them myself if I had to. A captive bolt gun is a humane way to kill an animal, it collapses almost instanteniously unconscious. The squirming of the animals being pithed is a result of someone shoving a piece of metal through their brain, obviously this is going to come into contact with the various motor centres in the brain resulting in efferent nerve signals being sent throughout the body resulting in movement. There is however no reason to believe afferent nerve signals are being sent (and even if they were they couldn't be processed since the brain has been essentially mushed) so no pain can be felt.

Having said that, I try to avoid eating meat from outside Ireland or especially outside the EU since I don't know what they're animal cruelty laws and standards are like. I also try to avoid eating meat more than a few times a week, partly because you don't need much meat for a balanced diet and partly because, methane production in paddy fields aside, when it comes to the industrial farming practices that feed most of the world it's an awful lot more efficient in terms of land used and CO2 produced to produce grains and vegetables rather than beef.

A rising demand for meat in Europe, the US and now places like China mean farmers the world over are expanding their meat production often at the expense of natural habitats (eg Amazon rainforest) or existing tillage land. This obviously has detremental impacts on natural eco-systems as well as the price of food which is why the price of rice and other grains have risen to levels where many of the world's poorest can barely afford to eat.

I don't give a fuck about eating an animal that was reared on an Irish farm with plenty to eat and shelter in the depths of winter and an ultimatley human death (not saying it couldn't be more humane, that inert gas stuff looked interesting but present slaughter practices are far from barbaric). But I will think twice about eating meat if my levels of consumption prevent some peasants in India, south america or africa from eating anything at all.

You do know there are Halal factories in Ireland yeah.And anyhow I have seen animals being slaughtered by butchers in Ireland in a manner that unless you are a total savage you would have to look away.

Do we ignore animal cruelty to suit us?

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