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Do we ignore animal cruelty to suit us?

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    #182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    softmee wrote: »
    No its not, they just prefer not to see that and majority would be distressed by that!

    Also, they weren't only shooting them in brain but screwing something what looked like wine bottle opened. Pure horror!
    This isn't a "naive shock"- this is a normal reaction to something cruel.

    1. I'll need proof for the bolded part before I'll believe it.
    2. Like I said, they were being humane by making sure the brain was completely dead. In other words, the screwy thing actually adds to ensuring a painless death. There's no other purpose to it except wanting the animals to not suffer. They're hardly doing it for the craic. They probably had to kill loads of animals, yet they took the extra time on every single one, even though the gun would have been enough, to make absolutely sure the animals had no pain reception or consciousness.
    3. You still haven't told me what's wrong with it other than you don't like the look of it.


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    #183
    softmee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 845 ✭✭✭softmee


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Can you back up this assumption with any type of study?

    Yes I can and I will. People who lack empathy are psychopaths (not talking about previous poster, dont know him/her that well...:rolleyes: ) and they usually start torturing animals. (will back up this tomorrow).

    If you can watch this video without beeing even slightly distressed - your level of empathy ( or compassion ) must be really low.


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    #184
    softmee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 845 ✭✭✭softmee


    true-or-false wrote: »
    3. You still haven't told me what's wrong with it other than you don't like the look of it.

    You really need me to tell what is wrong in screwing a huge bottle opener to the living creature brain? :(


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    #185
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    softmee wrote: »
    Yes I can and I will. People who lack empathy are psychopaths (not talking about previous poster, dont know him/her that well...:rolleyes: ) and they usually start torturing animals. (will back up this tomorrow).

    sweet jesus...


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    #186
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    softmee wrote: »
    Yes I can and I will. People who lack empathy are psychopaths (not talking about previous poster, dont know him/her that well...:rolleyes: ) and they usually start torturing animals. (will back up this tomorrow).

    Psychopaths lack empathy, that doesn't mean that lacking empathy for any given situation makes you a psychopath. That's like saying oranges are fruit, so all fruit are oranges. I killed an ant once, and didn't feel empathy, so I'm a psychopath? Okay. Have you ever washed your hands? You probably killed about 90% of the stuff living on your hands.

    And anyway, the matter in question is why should empathy be felt for what's happening in the video? I genuinely want to understand the other side of the argument, but you still haven't answered my only real question.

    As I've stated already, I feel a great deal of empathy for the way some animals are made to live; I do feel empathy. I just don't see what was done in the video that was wrong other than the clearly sensationalist text throughout.

    Edit: Oh right, just saw this:
    screwing a huge bottle opener to the living creature brain?
    The animals were already dead. They were just making doubly sure. If you though they were still alive, then I do get why you would be distressed.


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    #187
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    I am only waiting for one of them to tell us that animals actually enjoy being killed :rolleyes:


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    #188
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    softmee wrote: »
    Yes I can and I will. People who lack empathy are psychopaths (not talking about previous poster, dont know him/her that well...:rolleyes: ) and they usually start torturing animals. (will back up this tomorrow).

    You will need more than that there is a long list of criteria for psychopathy, lacking the ability to empathise is only one of them and is not by itself enough to diagnose a person, the torturing of animals is often seen in psychopaths at a young age, but againg by itself not enough. Plus those criteria where developed by Robert Hare,everybody does not agree with him. As I said they are only two criteria the PCL psychopath check list is a very long list there is a lot more to it that the above.

    The above is a video of animals being dispatched, it is debatable whether it is torture, as the people involved would be before the courts if it was clear cut torture would they not? It is merely your opinion that it is torture.

    The first thing you need to do is establish whether psychopaths exist, as a lot of clinicians and researchers have different opinions on it. However, in order to back up your opinions you need to discover that there is a lot more to psychopathy than just lacking the ability to empathise.


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    #189
    softmee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 845 ✭✭✭softmee


    true-or-false wrote: »
    but you still haven't answered my only real question.

    "As for me, I could never so much as endure, without remorse and griefe, to see a poore, sillie, and innocent beast pursued and killed, which is harmelesse and voide of defence, and of whom we receive no offence at all.
    Montaigne, Of Cruelty

    -he can explain better then me.

    ""The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men."
    Leonardo da Vinci

    -and I hope this time will come

    "Our task must be to free ourselves… by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty. Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
    Albert Einstein

    "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian."
    Paul McCartney


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    #190
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    softmee wrote: »
    "As for me, I could never so much as endure, without remorse and griefe, to see a poore, sillie, and innocent beast pursued and killed, which is harmelesse and voide of defence, and of whom we receive no offence at all.
    Montaigne, Of Cruelty

    -he can explain better then me.

    ""The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men."
    Leonardo da Vinci

    -and I hope this time will come

    Okay, so it's that they're being killed at all? I can understand that reasoning.

    What if they were being killed because they were diseased? It could save a lot more lives than it cost.

    Edit: I just mean that since they weren't in an abattoir and they were doing the brain thing (which AFAIK they don't do on animals for consumption?) it seems like they were being culled.


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    #191
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    softmee wrote: »

    If you can watch this video without beeing even slightly distressed - your level of empathy ( or compassion ) must be really low.


    Interesting enough I can, but yet for a living I work with people who have been victims of very bad acts, various abuses of anything you can think of. I have been at this game a long time and my clients would not agree that I lack empathy.

    At the same time I sometimes work with the people who carried out some of the acts I have described above, I can understand them and empathise where appropriate.

    Having the ability to empathise does not mean I become emotionally upset or distressed. If it did spending my day listing to people express their experience of some very nasty life experiences would mean I would be unable to work.


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    #192
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    I wonder how many" brave" killers of animals there would be if the animals had the ability to defend themselves.At the the end of the day animal cruelty and hunting is a spineless cowards game.


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    #193
    softmee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 845 ✭✭✭softmee


    true-or-false wrote: »
    What if they were being killed because they were diseased?

    It doesn't change the fact that millions are killed every day not because of disease. I will come back to it tomorrow..


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    #194
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    archer22 wrote: »
    I am only waiting for one of them to tell us that animals actually enjoy being killed :rolleyes:

    Now you are just being a silly billy:rolleyes:


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    #195
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Now you are just being a silly billy:rolleyes:
    Well there was a hunting fella on TV3 one night who said Foxes enjoyed being chased by a pack of hounds....so nothing would surprise me.


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    #196
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Now you are just being a silly billy:rolleyes:

    I dunno. The cows in that snuff film I saw looked to be having a whale of a time. The whale, though, did not. :(


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    #197
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Tonyandthewhale wrote: »
    I hate when people say things like 'you wouldn't eat that meat if you knew where it came from and what those animals had to go through.' It's bullshit, I know that animals have to die for me to eat them, I've seen them being killed and would happily kill them myself if I had to. A captive bolt gun is a humane way to kill an animal, it collapses almost instanteniously unconscious. The squirming of the animals being pithed is a result of someone shoving a piece of metal through their brain, obviously this is going to come into contact with the various motor centres in the brain resulting in efferent nerve signals being sent throughout the body resulting in movement. There is however no reason to believe afferent nerve signals are being sent (and even if they were they couldn't be processed since the brain has been essentially mushed) so no pain can be felt.

    Having said that, I try to avoid eating meat from outside Ireland or especially outside the EU since I don't know what they're animal cruelty laws and standards are like. I also try to avoid eating meat more than a few times a week, partly because you don't need much meat for a balanced diet and partly because, methane production in paddy fields aside, when it comes to the industrial farming practices that feed most of the world it's an awful lot more efficient in terms of land used and CO2 produced to produce grains and vegetables rather than beef.

    A rising demand for meat in Europe, the US and now places like China mean farmers the world over are expanding their meat production often at the expense of natural habitats (eg Amazon rainforest) or existing tillage land. This obviously has detremental impacts on natural eco-systems as well as the price of food which is why the price of rice and other grains have risen to levels where many of the world's poorest can barely afford to eat.

    I don't give a fuck about eating an animal that was reared on an Irish farm with plenty to eat and shelter in the depths of winter and an ultimatley human death (not saying it couldn't be more humane, that inert gas stuff looked interesting but present slaughter practices are far from barbaric). But I will think twice about eating meat if my levels of consumption prevent some peasants in India, south america or africa from eating anything at all.

    You think that because you eat EU meat that the animals involved went through minimum cruelty?

    Battery cages are still legal in the EU and will be until next next year at which time they will be banned, thankfully.

    It's not just about how animals are killed, it's their lives before that that has to be taken into account. As we speak, there are over 1 million chickens/hens in battery cages in Ireland. They cannot even stretch their wings, never mind try to fly.


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    #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kraggy wrote: »
    They cannot even stretch their wings, never mind try to fly.
    Yeah, but those free range chickens really do get to be a pain flying over my house all the time...


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    #199
    Duggy747
    Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    kraggy wrote: »
    As we speak, there are upwards 2 million chickens/hens in battery cages in Ireland.

    It's half of that considering there's an estimated 2+ million chicken / hens in total in Ireland.


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    #200
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Millicent wrote: »
    I dunno. The cows in that snuff film I saw looked to be having a whale of a time. The whale, though, did not. :(
    Yeah we know that Killer Whales,Sharks, Wolves etc have to kill to survive.They dont have supermarkets they can go to and pick an alternative food.


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    #201
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    It's half of that considering there's an estimated 2+ million chicken / hens in total in Ireland.

    My mistake. Post edited.

    Phew, that means there's only 1 million hens in battery cages with no room to stretch their wings or have any comfort.

    All's well so...



    Here's a link to Compassion in World Farming. They're one of the most respected Animal Welfare organisations in the world. i.e. They're no PETA/Animal Liberation Front. So they don't exaggerate or make stuff up.

    http://www.ciwf.ie/farminfo/farmfacts_egghens.html


    Beak trimming
    Commercial hens may resort to pecking at each other's feathers. This behaviour should be addressed by improving their environment, or changing the breed of bird as some breeds are more prone to feather-pecking. However, on most farms, the hens have part of their beaks removed to stop them from feather-pecking. This may be done using a red hot metal blade - a painful process. In systems that provide for the welfare of hens, beak-trimming should not be necessary.



    What happens to male chicks?
    Obviously the males do not lay eggs and they are not considered to be the right breed for meat (as they don't put weight on quickly enough). EU slaughter legislation allows these day-old chicks to be killed by gassing or by a mechanical apparatus (e.g. a machine with rapidly rotating killing blades).



    It's shocking to think that this goes on. But a lot of the reason is that people demand eggs for ridiculously low prices. If people were prepared to spend just an extra few cents, they'd get Free-Range eggs which taste better and are obviously, in most cases, a better deal for the animal too.


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    #202
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Some interesting comments here about vegetarianism, do people not realise huge numbers of people and whole societies don't eat meat, especially in Asia, and until the industrialisation and mass production in the latter half of the 20th century for most of the world meat was a luxury.
    Most of the cruelty animals suffer is due to people wanting meat with every meal and creating a demand that results in things like battery operations and mass slaughtering where less care is taken to ensure a painless death.
    The waste of food due to sell by dates and domestic wastage in the western world also results in the unnecessary death and miserable lives of innumerable animals.

    Ironically the result of this demand is an obesity epidemic, with suffering and the early death of humans.


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    #203
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    This thread.....so much idiocy.....so little interest in arguing with the irrational and ignorant


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    #204
    tonsiltickler
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭tonsiltickler


    Killing an animal so it can be eaten is obviously cruel. Whats wrong with meat production is that we have such an overdependance on certain cuts of meat like fillet/breast etc.. So the total numbers of animals killed is way higher than it should be.

    No one seems to want offal like liver and kidney which is a shame, they're delicious. If you feel strongly about this, then organic meat is the way to go I think.

    My buddy worked in a slaughterhouse as a pneumatics technician. He's a tough bast*rd and he only lasted a month.


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    #205
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    archer22 wrote: »
    Well there was a hunting fella on TV3 one night who said Foxes enjoyed being chased by a pack of hounds....so nothing would surprise me.

    What a clown.


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    #206
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    archer22 wrote: »
    I wonder how many" brave" killers of animals there would be if the animals had the ability to defend themselves.At the the end of the day animal cruelty and hunting is a spineless cowards game.
    Hunting is a fundamental part of nature. I'm constantly shocked people can overlook how nature has been for billions of years and instead assume that they know better based on a decade or two of wallowing in the modern human notions that we're some sort of fairy that can somehow overcome the fact we're also part of nature. Being in harmony with nature means killing, I'd be fairly certain that nature would be proud as punch of her human creation. It's survival of the strongest and fittest, not lets all be friends like on Barney.
    kraggy wrote: »
    It's shocking to think that this goes on. But a lot of the reason is that people demand eggs for ridiculously low prices. If people were prepared to spend just an extra few cents, they'd get Free-Range eggs which taste better and are obviously, in most cases, a better deal for the animal too.
    I can only assume your don't shop in tesco, if you do your a hypocrite.
    tonsiltickler wrote: »
    Killing an animal so it can be eaten is obviously cruel.
    No, it's normal, it's been happening since their was life.


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    #207
    redzerologhlen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭redzerologhlen


    To be honest I dont think there is too many in favour of battery cages. i dont agree with a lot said in this thread and think a lot of it is a bit irrational but battery cages are wrong. Its the worst conditions a farmed animal has to live in by a long way, The eggs are also crap compared to what our own few hens produce in our back garden.


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    #208
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Hunting is a fundamental part of nature. I'm constantly shocked people can overlook how nature has been for billions of years and instead assume that they know better based on a decade or two of wallowing in the modern human notions that we're some sort of fairy that can somehow overcome the fact we're also part of nature. Being in harmony with nature means killing, I'd be fairly certain that nature would be proud as punch of her human creation. It's survival of the strongest and fittest, not lets all be friends like on Barney.

    I can only assume your don't shop in tesco, if you do your a hypocrite.

    No, it's normal, it's been happening since their was life.
    :confused::confused::confused: you are having a laugh right ?


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    #209
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    archer22 wrote: »
    :confused::confused::confused: you are having a laugh right ?
    No are you really saying hunting isn't a normal part of nature?


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    #210
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Killing for survival is natural, killing for fun is messed up.


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    #211
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    ScumLord wrote: »
    No are you really saying hunting isn't a normal part of nature?
    Oh dear lord you are serious...Hunting is part of nature if you live in a burrow or in a tree and you have no other source of food...I am assuming here that you dont live in a burrow or a tree if you do I apologise.Regarding survival of the "strongest and the fittest" that also involves attacking the other alpha males and mating their females (must be an interesting and unusual place where you live)..."killing is living in harmony with nature" ..for once I am speechless :eek::eek::eek::eek:..,..


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