Class Rep training junket?

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 10:10PM

lordgoat wrote: »

No i do get the point. But I have the ability to know what the point of the SU is, what they are responsible for and what is within their power to actually do.

You can't equate spending by the SU on training (or anything for that matter) to students having to fund themselves to go through college.

The SU is there to provide support and a platform to get student change in a positive manner, they are not there to fund students to go to college.

Those same students probably saved their asses off to pay that €93 and it's being spent on hotel trips instead of stuff that could matter. And no, I am not talking about lightbulbs.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 10:11PM

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

I can not understand the argument that having the Training in the hotel prevents people from leaving. I attended an information/training weekend last year with other college students in a rented house. It was a similar thing with the basics being free. There were numerous boring talks over the weekend but you were required to be there, but because it was such a big group people could easily sneak off to their rooms. There would be people you would only see at Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner. I think it is fairly impossible to keep tabs on everyone in such a large group, it might be hard to spot people going missing.

I want to ask how you can ensure everyone attends every single meeting during the two days?

This is what I was thinking. The same people will "escape" no matter what. What is being in a hotel going to change?

Eric Cartman · 10-10-2011 10:14PM

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

I can not understand the argument that having the Training in the hotel prevents people from leaving. I attended an information/training weekend last year with other college students in a rented house. It was a similar thing with the basics being free. There were numerous boring talks over the weekend but you were required to be there, but because it was such a big group people could easily sneak off to their rooms. There would be people you would only see at Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner. I think it is fairly impossible to keep tabs on everyone in such a large group, it might be hard to spot people going missing.

I want to ask how you can ensure everyone attends every single meeting during the two days?

you can only try your best , you cant lock the doors but the following two scenarios are present

on campus training , places to go if your bored :
your house
a mates house
anywhere with your mates
a pub you know
your lectures
the SU

those temptations are there and youll have your mates going off and doing things you have easy access too

off site , places to go if your bored :
your hotel room (a list of whos in what room makes finding people easier)
the hotel bar (very easy to find people sitting there)

your friends arent there asking you to come out , you dont know everyone around you so its harder to organise a group skiving off , your lectures and familiar hangout spots arent nearby ,

its the same reason companies run training in function rooms half way down the N7 etc...

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 10:17PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you can only try your best , you cant lock the doors but the following two scenarios are present

on campus training , places to go if your bored :
your house
a mates house
anywhere with your mates
a pub you know
your lectures
the SU

those temptations are there and youll have your mates going off and doing things you have easy access too

off site , places to go if your bored :
your hotel room (a list of whos in what room makes finding people easier)
the hotel bar (very easy to find people sitting there)

your friends arent there asking you to come out , you dont know everyone around you so its harder to organise a group skiving off , your lectures and familiar hangout spots arent nearby ,

its the same reason companies run training in function rooms half way down the N7 etc...

What's stopping anyone walking out of the hotel? Just because there's no one/nothing there doesn't mean that they still won't leave

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 10:18PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Those same students probably saved their asses off to pay that €93 and it's being spent on hotel trips instead of stuff that could matter. And no, I am not talking about lightbulbs.

Again... you're missing the point. If reps are trained properly they will do a better job and therefore students as a whole will benefit.

Also it should be pointed out that there are what 5000, 6000 students in NUIM right? So that's what 1euro a student, not E93. And pretty reasonable for training imo.

Essentially the way i see it is, you're protesting over a euro a student.

Also have you any suggestions or just negatively contradicting on everything. Totally passive in an type of discusssion.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 10:21PM

lordgoat wrote: »

Again... you're missing the point. If reps are trained properly they will do a better job and therefore students as a whole will benefit.

Also it should be pointed out that there are what 5000, 6000 students in NUIM right? So that's what 1euro a student, not E93. And pretty reasonable for training imo.

Essentially the way i see it is, you're protesting over a euro a student.

Also have you any suggestions or just negatively contradicting on everything. Totally passive in an type of discusssion.

No, you're not getting the point. Why can't the training be done on campus. There has been no satisfactory answer on that. This "they won't run away" crap is ridiculous.

And yes I do, hold it on campus. I'm more than in favour of training. Use the lecture halls, Pugin, St. Pats, the SU. Cheap and cheerful

Kiwi_knock · 10-10-2011 10:21PM

lordgoat wrote: »

Also have you any suggestions or just negatively contradicting on everything. Totally passive in an type of discusssion.

The main suggestion is to have it on Campus

Eric Cartman · 10-10-2011 10:22PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

What's stopping anyone walking out of the hotel? Just because there's no one/nothing there doesn't mean that they still won't leave

your obviously not going to get 100% on this but an empty carpark wont be much use to many people aside from chainsmokers , the hotel also creates a better enviroment where more time is spent around the trainers and the reps so the trainers become more approachable in a casual setting if any reps have any questions or suggestions to make in a more private setting rather than shouting them out infront of all the other reps , it builds rappore with the SU staff and trainers and will help the new class reps , especially 1st years make friends in similar positions who they can converse with when they have an issue.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 10:24PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

your obviously not going to get 100% on this but an empty carpark wont be much use to many people aside from chainsmokers , the hotel also creates a better enviroment where more time is spent around the trainers and the reps so the trainers become more approachable in a casual setting if any reps have any questions or suggestions to make in a more private setting rather than shouting them out infront of all the other reps , it builds rappore with the SU staff and trainers and will help the new class reps , especially 1st years make friends in similar positions who they can converse with when they have an issue.

And you can't get that on campus why?

LeixlipRed · 10-10-2011 10:26PM

€5,000 for a casual setting, thought that's what we went to university for? :pac:

Eric Cartman · 10-10-2011 10:27PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

And you can't get that on campus why?

because if you were on campus SU staff would be off doing different jobs when talks werent on , trainers would be off elsewhere, not everyone would be drinking in the same place and you arent nudging the shyer reps to make friends and converse with the others.

its in the same way that companies dont have team building exercises in the office , theres just something psycological about being away somewhere with a group of people , people react differently in a setting like a hotel , its the reason your schools had trips away and companies have meetings outside the office.

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 10:27PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

No, you're not getting the point. Why can't the training be done on campus. There has been no satisfactory answer on that. This "they won't run away" crap is ridiculous.

And yes I do, hold it on campus. I'm more than in favour of training. Use the lecture halls, Pugin, St. Pats, the SU. Cheap and cheerful

Eric Cartman wrote: »

your obviously not going to get 100% on this but an empty carpark wont be much use to many people aside from chainsmokers , the hotel also creates a better enviroment where more time is spent around the trainers and the reps so the trainers become more approachable in a casual setting if any reps have any questions or suggestions to make in a more private setting rather than shouting them out infront of all the other reps , it builds rappore with the SU staff and trainers and will help the new class reps , especially 1st years make friends in similar positions who they can converse with when they have an issue.

This. ^.

This is why you can't get it on campus. This is why any decent company trains their staff off site.

Also you ignored my 1euro vs 93euro. Do you think that 1euro per student is a reasonable amount to pay for training or not?

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 10:28PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

€5,000 for a casual setting, thought that's what we went to university for? :pac:

hahahahahahahah what a ridiculous statement. Totally clueless.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 10:36PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

because if you were on campus SU staff would be off doing different jobs when talks werent on , trainers would be off elsewhere, not everyone would be drinking in the same place and you arent nudging the shyer reps to make friends and converse with the others.

Who says they'll all be off somewhere else? It's easy to do that on a campus setting? No one has to go off anywhere? It wouldn't be that hard to do the same thing that you would in a hotel.

You seem to be expecting the worst of people just because they won't be in a hotel?

mickstupp · 10-10-2011 10:38PM

lordgoat wrote: »

Do you think that 1euro per student is a reasonable amount to pay for training or not?

Training, sure. Hotel trip, no.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the hotel also creates a better enviroment where more time is spent around the trainers...

Why would the time spent around trainers be any different if the thing was handled properly on campus? There shouldn't be any difference whatsoever.

and the reps so the trainers become more approachable in a casual setting

Can't see how that works. Or makes any sense. Why is a formal conference type setup in a hotel more casual than, say, JH1 or the other lecture halls which a good many students are presumably familiar and comfortable with already?

if any reps have any questions or suggestions to make in a more private setting rather than shouting them out infront of all the other reps

People have never heard of putting their hands up? After how many years in school? Why would they suddenly treat the setting on campus as a place where they can shout out questions as and when they want? Will they suddenly lose all sense of propriety, dignity and respect for others? Is that what moving this to a hotel does? Stop people from being ignorant?

it builds rappore with the SU staff and trainers and will help the new class reps

Why exactly would that be impossible on campus?

especially 1st years make friends in similar positions who they can converse with when they have an issue.

Right, another example of something impossible to do on campus. Clearly.

I'll reiterate my opinion, if these class reps need to be segregated in order to be properly trained (since seemingly according to some they're impossible to control if let remotely near a college campus) then they're not the type of people I'd want representing me. If they want to be reps they should be willing to submit to some serious ground rules. No need to take this off campus. That's the expense people are annoyed about. Everyone wants them trained, just not housed in a hotel for the duration.

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 10:47PM

mickstupp wrote: »

Training, sure. Hotel trip, no.

Why would the time spent around trainers be any different if the thing was handled properly on campus? There shouldn't be any difference whatsoever.

Can't see how that works. Or makes any sense. Why is a formal conference type setup in a hotel more casual than, say, JH1 or the other lecture halls which a good many students are presumably familiar and comfortable with already?

People have never heard of putting their hands up? After how many years in school? Why would they suddenly treat the setting on campus as a place where they can shout out questions as and when they want? Will they suddenly lose all sense of propriety, dignity and respect for others? Is that what moving this to a hotel does? Stop people from being ignorant?

Why exactly would that be impossible on campus?

Right, another example of something impossible to do on campus. Clearly.

I'll reiterate my opinion, if these class reps need to be segregated in order to be properly trained (since seemingly according to some they're impossible to control if let remotely near a college campus) then they're not the type of people I'd want representing me. If they want to be reps they should be willing to submit to some serious ground rules. No need to take this off campus. That's the expense people are annoyed about. Everyone wants them trained, just not housed in a hotel for the duration.

The expense of less than a euro a student is worth it for training imo, regardless of if that includes a hotel or not.

You also consistently ignore the benefits of off site training.

mickstupp · 10-10-2011 10:52PM

lordgoat wrote: »

You also consistently ignore the benefits of off site training.

I'm not ignoring them. The problem is I don't see the benefits of off site training, and I don't agree with any of the 'arguments' for them presented so far in either this thread or Rob's statements. I don't believe any of the reasons presented count as valid arguments full stop.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 11:00PM

lordgoat wrote: »

The expense of less than a euro a student is worth it for training imo, regardless of if that includes a hotel or not.

You also consistently ignore the benefits of off site training.

Why spend the money if you don't have to? Surely it could be spent on better things. That is such a celtic tiger attitude tbh. Ah sure we have the money, may as well spend it

And what benefits? Every "benefit" presented has been easily refuted

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 11:00PM

mickstupp wrote: »

I'm not ignoring them. The problem is I don't see the benefits of off site training, and I don't agree with any of the 'arguments' for them presented so far in either this thread or Rob's statements. I don't believe any of the reasons presented count as valid arguments full stop.

Well then why is off site training so popular. Why do all these companies throw money away on it then? As I've said before I've had both types of training and off-site has been much better imo. And trust me i'd rather not have to spend a weekend away with work people but in terms of my job it helped a hell of a lot. In comparison to on site training which was hell. And I actually left early when possible.

You also ignore the human side of things, this is a job that has to be done but reps give up their time to participate in this programme. Bringing training off site has benefits (that while you might not agree with) are tangible.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 11:01PM

lordgoat wrote: »

Well then why is off site training so popular. Why do all these companies throw money away on it then? As I've said before I've had both types of training and off-site has been much better imo. And trust me i'd rather not have to spend a weekend away with work people but in terms of my job it helped a hell of a lot. In comparison to on site training which was hell. And I actually left early when possible.

You also ignore the human side of things, this is a job that has to be done but reps give up their time to participate in this programme. Bringing training off site has benefits (that while you might not agree with) are tangible.

Because they are based in offices, with little space. Not a college that has a more relaxed atmosphere and plenty of space.

Why does DCU's training work so well so?

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 11:03PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Why spend the money if you don't have to? Surely it could be spent on better things. That is such a celtic tiger attitude tbh. Ah sure we have the money, may as well spend it

And what benefits? Every "benefit" presented has been easily refuted

We have to train reps, let's do it properly and if that involves spending a tiny amount per student, then let's pay it.

Google - benefits of off site training. If you actually need them explained to you, then have a read for a couple of hours.

Not easily refuted more ignored imo.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 11:05PM

lordgoat wrote: »

We have to train reps, let's do it properly and if that involves spending a tiny amount per student, then let's pay it.

Google - benefits of off site training. If you actually need them explained to you, then have a read for a couple of hours.

Not easily refuted more ignored imo.

Why can't it be done properly on campus? Still waiting on an answer.

And those benefits work in an office type situation. This is NOT an office type situation.

And I repeat, why does DCU's ON CAMPUS training work so well if you claim that training can only be successful if off site.

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 11:06PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Because they are based in offices, with little space. Not a college that has a more relaxed atmosphere and plenty of space.

Why does DCU's training work so well so?

I don't work in an office and there was plenty of space to have training on site.
This isn't a new thing. It has very little to do with physical space. If you think that, seriously do some research.

Why does Trinity's/DIT's training work so well?

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 11:08PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Why can't it be done properly on campus? Still waiting on an answer.

And those benefits work in an office type situation. This is NOT an office type situation.

And I repeat, why does DCU's ON CAMPUS training work so well if you claim that training can only be successful if off site.

Stop half reading sentences.

Also where did i say training can only be successful off campus?

I said there are benefits to off site training. It's a well known globally used method. That i don't have to explain to you. If you aren't aware of it, do some research.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 11:09PM

lordgoat wrote: »

I don't work in an office and there was plenty of space to have training on site.
This isn't a new thing. It has very little to do with physical space. If you think that, seriously do some research.

Why does Trinity's/DIT's training work so well?

It's not to do with space, it's atmosphere. In an office you feel like you're at work. The same doesn't apply to college. People feel relaxed in college because they don't spend all their time studying while there, they can do more social and relaxing thing while still on campus.
And I've done both. I'm currently working in a big corporate office before you try to argue that.

From what I've heard, it doesn't

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 11:18PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Because they are based in offices, with little space. Not a college that has a more relaxed atmosphere and plenty of space.

Why does DCU's training work so well so?

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

It's not to do with space, it's atmosphere. In an office you feel like you're at work. The same doesn't apply to college. People feel relaxed in college because they don't spend all their time studying while there, they can do more social and relaxing thing while still on campus.
And I've done both. I'm currently working in a big corporate office before you try to argue that.

From what I've heard, it doesn't

Not to do with space but is to do with space? Got it.

In an office you feel like you're in work, but in college you fell like you're elsewhere? Wow.

Sure i'll concede you do more than go to lectures in college, but the benefit is gained from being taken out of the normal setting, helping you to integrate with others in a setting unfamiliar to both parties. It levels the playing field, as the location and setting is new to all parties. I honestly don't have the time or will to explain it any more than this.

And it definietly does work, why else is it used by the vast majority of companies, charities business and even SU's.

You also never asked why Trinity/DIT/NUIG/others if i can be arsed looking go away for training. Should i write in caps for you next time.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 11:27PM

lordgoat wrote: »

Not to do with space but is to do with space? Got it.

In an office you feel like you're in work, but in college you fell like you're elsewhere? Wow.

Sure i'll concede you do more than go to lectures in college, but the benefit is gained from being taken out of the normal setting, helping you to integrate with others in a setting unfamiliar to both parties. It levels the playing field, as the location and setting is new to all parties. I honestly don't have the time or will to explain it any more than this.

And it definietly does work, why else is it used by the vast majority of companies, charities business and even SU's.

You also never asked why Trinity/DIT/NUIG/others if i can be arsed looking go away for training. Should i write in caps for you next time.

I apologise. That's my own issue. It's not to do with space though.

And yes, there is an entirely atmosphere. I've done training in both. work training was a lot harder than in college where I enjoyed it despite being in campus. Campus is a relaxed atmosphere, the office isn't. How hard is that to understand. Stop treating me like I'm slow, like I've already said.Ii have done both.

No one has said that it doesn't work. We are saying that it can work just as well on campus.

I do ask. But who am I meant to ask? Not my college.
I'd imagine it's for the same reason as Maynooth are. A chance to offer a free trip to a hotel. Sure Trinity even advertise it. how pathetic is that?

And from I have heard DCU have the best class rep system out there, and they do their training on campus.
And yes, this comes from both public word of mouth and experiences from people I know.

lordgoat · 10-10-2011 11:49PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

I apologise. That's my own issue. It's not to do with space though.

And yes, there is an entirely atmosphere. I've done training in both. work training was a lot harder than in college where I enjoyed it despite being in campus. Campus is a relaxed atmosphere, the office isn't. How hard is taht to understand. Stop treating me like I'm slwo, like I've already said. i ahev done both.

No one has said that it doesn't work. We are saying that it can work just as well on campus.

I do ask. But who am I meant to ask? Not my college.
I'd imagine it's for the same reason as Maynooth are. A chance to offer a free trip to a hotel. Sure Trinity even advertise it. how pathetic is that?

And from I have heard DCU have the best class rep system out there, and they do their training on campus.
And yes, this comes from both public word of mouth and experiences from people I know.

Apologies if you feel like i've treated you like you're slow, not my intent at all.

I do feel you, not just you actually but some others too, ignore the benefits of bringing training to a neutral site. There are alot of really good reasons for this. Google is your friend here. I touched on it in my last post but maybe you skimmed over it.

I'm not just saying it, i just have seen the benefits of off-site training first hand.

The DCU class rep system is self perpetuating, as in once it's in place it is easier to keep in place. Which is why good training is essential. Regardless of where it takes place.

I'm done now, i don't think we'll agree anyway so, all i will say is keep in mind that spending money is not always a bad thing.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 10-10-2011 11:55PM

lordgoat wrote: »

Apologies if you feel like i've treated you like you're slow, not my intent at all.

I do feel you, not just you actually but some others too, ignore the benefits of bringing training to a neutral site. There are alot of really good reasons for this. Google is your friend here. I touched on it in my last post but maybe you skimmed over it.

I'm not just saying it, i just have seen the benefits of off-site training first hand.

The DCU class rep system is self perpetuating, as in once it's in place it is easier to keep in place. Which is why good training is essential. Regardless of where it takes place.

I'm done now, i don't think we'll agree anyway so, all i will say is keep in mind that spending money is not always a bad thing.

All those spelling mistakes didn't do much for my claim that I wasn't slow!

Who says you can't get the same benefits on campus? I see no reason why not.

And telling me to google is extremely rude. Make the point yourself, don't expect me to have to search for it.

The DCU system was always on campus though? And is good training. I just don't see why maynooth can't do the same thing!

Spending money is a bad thing when it could be spent on things a lot more important and beneficial. We have all been led to believe that the college and the SU are struggling for money, surely that €5000 could help with that?

Lets just agree to disagree then

Tesco Massacre · 11-10-2011 12:10AM

lordgoat wrote: »

Again... you're missing the point. If reps are trained properly they will do a better job and therefore students as a whole will benefit.

Also it should be pointed out that there are what 5000, 6000 students in NUIM right? So that's what 1euro a student, not E93. And pretty reasonable for training imo.

Essentially the way i see it is, you're protesting over a euro a student.

Yes, but it's €1 x 5-6,000.

I wouldn't be totally unsympathetic to holding training off-campus if the reasons for doing so were in any way compelling. But they're not, they're flimsy. It's fine saying that such and such a business holds their training days away from their base and that works well, but NUIM SU and class reps aren't a business, they're students. If they walk out of a training exercise (on or off site) no one will care and no one is held accountable...if you're an employee of a company it's the opposite.

The SU are arguing that holding students on-site is nigh-on impossible. Well then, perhaps they should let those who want to be class reps know in no uncertain terms that they have to attend all planned meeting on the day(s). Take a roll after every break if needs be. If people are shown not to have attended then strike them off the class rep. list. If someone can't be bothered attending the meetings then they don't deserve to represent their class.

There was a bunch of other stuff I wanted to say but I've forgotten and I've got a headache. I hope you're happy, lordgoat.

Class Rep training junket?

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