The ESB And Eirgrid can go f*ck themselves - Merge

Zimmerframe · 02-10-2011 11:52AM

Reading some of these threads about habitats, you would think the entire Amazon rain forest was to be felled.
It's a few trees out of 100 acres of "man made" forestry, which I'm sure the ESB would be happy to replace with an equivalent number of trees elsewhere.

Handy11 · 02-10-2011 12:13PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

CDfm wrote: »

It is demeaning and portraying her as a bit of an incompetant and a nut rather than someone of deeply held principles.

Is she a woman of deeply held principles though?

What principles are they if she is?

She's known locally as a bit of an auld briar with a tendency towards being a bit if a crank. Just passing on a bit of multi-sourced local opinion on her personality.

Zen65 · 02-10-2011 12:20PM

Handy11 wrote: »

She's known locally as a bit of an auld briar with a tendency towards being a bit if a crank. Just passing on a bit of multi-sourced local opinion on her personality.

I don't see how that's relevant. Life isn't a popularity contest (or at least shouldn't be), and to turn this thread into a discussion about the people rather than about the principles is taking it nowhere.

Z

Handy11 · 02-10-2011 12:25PM

Zen65 wrote: »

Handy11 wrote: »

She's known locally as a bit of an auld briar with a tendency towards being a bit if a crank. Just passing on a bit of multi-sourced local opinion on her personality.

I don't see how that's relevant. Life isn't a popularity contest (or at least shouldn't be), and to turn this thread into a discussion about the people rather than about the principles is taking it nowhere.

Z

I appreciate that, and I've found that reasoned discussion in the previous number of pages has broken down into reason v drama/speculation, in most cases. I dont think a single person has been even remotely convinced by the opposing argument thus far. I have tried to engage reasonably where possible. Your posts so far have, AFAIC, been the most reasoned and balanced and well-judged.

With the above reply, I was simply colouring in a different discussion where someone suggested the media was painting the woman out to be a crank. I just wanted to let people know that this isn't just a media slant. There's too much conspiracy being shouted in this discussion.

Freddie59 · 02-10-2011 01:13PM

robbie7730 wrote: »

Thats why 110kv, 220kv transmission/distribution circuits etc are used. To minimise the power losses over long distances. 230v 1000 amps used by a housing estate would only be 2 amps on the 110kv line.

Maybe that will be of some comfort to her when she is admiring her newly landscaped land:pac:

Note the bolded word. If they go around EVERYONE who complains there'll be very little juice at the end.

Peetrik · 02-10-2011 01:20PM

Zen65 wrote: »

the judge had no option but to apply the law

Any chance of a link where it states that its mandatory or that the judge has no option? All I can find is 'can' and 'may'.

Zen65 wrote: »

The number of trees felled by the road project was a very small percentage of the total

Zen65 wrote: »

and the forest is still there for everyone to enjoy.

True, but this was due to the protest. Were the original plans posed by Wicklow county council carried out, over half of what is now a nature reserve would have been destroyed.

Zen65 wrote: »

I do not see a "greater good" being supported by insisting the trees all stay.

Her continued inprisonment isn't serving a greater good either.

Handy11 wrote: »

Your posts so far have, AFAIC, been the most reasoned

+1

Handy11 wrote: »

I dont think a single person has been even remotely convinced by the opposing argument thus far

I think you might be right, I think I'll stop now

btw Zen your neighbour sounds cool

Zen65 · 02-10-2011 02:22PM

Peetrik wrote: »

btw Zen your neighbour sounds cool

Oooh, the suspicion grows

If I call him "Peetrik" and he blushes I'll know it was you all along!

Z

CDfm · 02-10-2011 06:33PM

joela wrote: »

What habitat are you talking about? The conifer plantation is a monoculture and the broadleaf plantation is immature ash. The habitat requires new plantation to replace like for like. No complex hydrological issues or soil issues or any of the things that complicate habitat restoration. I'll think you'll find habitat creation and restoration is focused on high value habitat.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Free-Teresa-Treacy/275465865811440

Pictures of the habitat!

It amazes me how harsh you are and how little you seem to appreciate the time it takes.

I know one man a bit like Therasa Tracey and it took him around 25 years to recreate an environment for a fox and pheasants.

People who spend time doing these things are trying to recreate what may have been there in their childhoods.

The reason they can work is that they have and emotional investment in it and it is for their enjoyment.

We need people like them.

Isn't it ironic that Pat Rabbitte is the Minister Responsible for jailing an elderly woman.

joela · 02-10-2011 07:24PM

CDfm wrote: »

It amazes me how harsh you are and how little you seem to appreciate the time it takes.

I know one man a bit like Therasa Tracey and it took him around 25 years to recreate an environment for a fox and pheasants.

People who spend time doing these things are trying to recreate what may have been there in their childhoods.

The reason they can work is that they have and emotional investment in it and it is for their enjoyment.

We need people like them.

Isn't it ironic that Pat Rabbitte is the Minister Responsible for jailing an elderly woman.

I'm not harsh I'm factual because it is a conifer plantation less than 20 years old there is no carefully tended habitat. There are conifer trees in rows which would have been felled within 10 years for sale as timber. People do not plant plantations for wildlife because quite simply they are not good habitat for wildlife. How is it harsh to state the facts as they are, this has been largely presented as an environmental issue when there isn't one. That habitat probably was a much more diverse one before it was replaced with a monculture which is notorious in fact for being detrimental for the environment in many ways.

I have said repeatedly that this may be an opportunity if she cares about wildlife to replant a more diverse and wildlife friendly habitat.

Also I find it incredibly ageist when people keep referring to her as an elderly woman as if she is some weak and pitiful human being. She is 65 not nearly dead and should probably be referred to as an older person. Her age is irrelevant anyway because you are 65 doesn't mean you can refuse to abide by a court order. The other thing about this is that nobody is keeping herself in prison but herself, all she has to do is say I'm sorry I will abide by the court order as directed. Then she can go home. I see no human rights issue at all and I have even seen a post showing a message from Amnesty International who are aware but not getting involved. If her human rights were being abused I think they may be more interested.

I appreciate the magic of the natural environment and despair everyday at the lack of care shown to it in the simplest of ways but in this case there really is no environment issue. The pictures of the felling show a pretty neat and tidy job with minimal disruption, the vast majority of trees felled were conifers and if you look at the pictures the rest of the habitat is rough rank grassland, drains and associated wet loving species such as reeds. Again I have to say this is not an environmental issue, this is not a small tenderly hand grown biodiverse woodland but a cash crop.

CDfm · 02-10-2011 08:21PM

joela wrote: »

I'm not harsh I'm factual because it is a conifer plantation less than 20 years old there is no carefully tended habitat. There are conifer trees in rows which would have been felled within 10 years for sale as timber. People do not plant plantations for wildlife because quite simply they are not good habitat for wildlife. How is it harsh to state the facts as they are, this has been largely presented as an environmental issue when there isn't one. That habitat probably was a much more diverse one before it was replaced with a monculture which is notorious in fact for being detrimental for the environment in many ways.

.

I have read what you posted.

The lady is a 65 year old spinster and what would she be doing hanging around IFA meetings with her hairy arsed male neighbours.

They are probably hoping she goes broke so they can buy her land.

This is a good article on her..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2038740/Teresa-Treacy-Irelands-unlikely-martyr--sent-prison-trying-save-trees.html

Lets see StalinPat Rabbitte takes on the Kulak little old woman.

I am not an environmentalist or anything like that, but, I am appalled that something like this can happen in my country.

joela · 02-10-2011 08:34PM

Honestly you sound like a very kind person who genuinely is concerned about this lady but really she lives with her sister, has lots of family around her and appears to be a fit and healthy 65 year old. If she was involved with the IFA then they would have negotiated on her behalf too but to be honest she seems to have rejected a lot of advice before she ended up in contempt of court. She may be older but it doesn't mean she is menatlly incapable but by the looks of it she is a very stubborn woman who is an able a dealer.

I don't wish to be rude but it is a link for the daily mail, the daily mail is entirely sensationalist and loves a good drama. I read that article weeks ago when it first came out and the presentation of the whole affair was dreadfully mawkish.

CDfm · 02-10-2011 08:53PM

I can be a bit of a tough sh!t when I want to be but this is not about me.

The Mail didn't make the story up because it did not have too.

The Ireland I grew up in had summary arrest under the Offences Against the State (terrorist) legislation for motoring offences and there was a case of a brother of a criminal/terrorist with mental health problems arrested for possession of a spoon from the Shelbourne Hotel. He was held and questioned about his brothers location and commited suicide.

If you do not take an interest in your rights and the rights of others -you can loose them.

It makes me embarressed to be Irish and makes me embarressed that we have politicians like Pat Rabbitte in Government that have allowed this to happen.

I don't know why any or all of our Presidential Candidates were not out today demanding her release.

Bruthal · 03-10-2011 12:53AM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Note the bolded word. If they go around EVERYONE who complains there'll be very little juice at the end.

Yes i see it there.

Paparazzo · 03-10-2011 01:25AM

The irony is, the longer the protesters chain themselves to the trees, the longer yer one will stay in prison.
Anyone have a link to the forest on google maps?

And seriously CDfm, if you think that Daily Mail link is a good article you'll love Indy Media and the Shell To Sea page. I actually read it in a "Barts People" voice

Overheal · 03-10-2011 01:46AM

So because ESB is owned by the government, the government is allowed to force its way onto your property?

That's some serious bull**** you folks got going on there.

CDfm · 03-10-2011 02:25AM

Paparazzo wrote: »

And seriously CDfm, if you think that Daily Mail link is a good article you'll love Indy Media and the Shell To Sea page. I actually read it in a "Barts People" voice

I hope you use your powers for good

CDfm · 03-10-2011 01:54PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

And seriously CDfm, if you think that Daily Mail link is a good article you'll love Indy Media and the Shell To Sea page. I actually read it in a "Barts People" voice

Are you slagging off Shell to Sea Campaigners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG9dVyN6yf8

He is very quite on this.

joela · 03-10-2011 06:18PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

The irony is, the longer the protesters chain themselves to the trees, the longer yer one will stay in prison.
Anyone have a link to the forest on google maps?

And seriously CDfm, if you think that Daily Mail link is a good article you'll love Indy Media and the Shell To Sea page. I actually read it in a "Barts People" voice

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,640923,724491,5,4

Kess73 · 03-10-2011 06:41PM

Zimmerframe wrote: »

Reading some of these threads about habitats, you would think the entire Amazon rain forest was to be felled.
It's a few trees out of 100 acres of "man made" forestry, which I'm sure the ESB would be happy to replace with an equivalent number of trees elsewhere.

Some 1,800 trees were felled before protesters got involved, so hardly just a few trees, and many more will be felled if they get the go ahead to continue.

There were some ariel shots of what the ESB have done so far there and they have carved out a big channel right down the centre of the forest.

Would have made more sense to run the cables underground, as the woman offered as a solution before she was put in prison, and it would have avoided the current shytestorm.

Funny how someone can be put in prison so quickly for something like this, yet every week there are reports in the papers and tv news of scumbags with multiple convictions to their name walking free for months and months after their latest crime before they go to court only to walk away with a suspended sentence.

Someone said earlier in the thread the judge was only following what the law allowed him to do. In that case this country should have a lot more scumbags in prison as the judges that showed leniency, at their own discretion, should have sentenced them all to actual sentences.

joela · 03-10-2011 06:50PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Some 1,800 trees were felled before protesters got involved, so hardly just a few trees, and many more will be felled if they get the go ahead to continue.

There were some ariel shots of what the ESB have done so far there and they have carved out a big channel right down the centre of the forest.

Would have made more sense to run the cables underground, as the woman offered as a solution before she was put in prison, and it would have avoided the current shytestorm.

Funny how someone can be put in prison so quickly for something like this, yet every week there are reports in the papers and tv news of scumbags with multiple convictions to their name walking free for months and months after their latest crime before they go to court only to walk away with a suspended sentence.

Someone said earlier in the thread the judge was only following what the law allowed him to do. In that case this country should have a lot more scumbags in prison as the judges that showed leniency, at their own discretion, should have sentenced them all to actual sentences.

What kind of trees were they?

It is good for forests to have open spaces especially if they are monocultures which are largely detrimental to the environment.

Regarding scumbags, they get prosecuted under criminal law and it is actually harder to get sent to prison. Civil law is what Ms Treacy has been sent to Mounjoy for or rather took herself to Mounjoy.

Again undergrounding would have meant FELLING the TREES so no different result for crying out loud.

CDfm · 03-10-2011 06:55PM

She seems to have been royally shafted.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of her farmer neighbours /IFA members does not have an eye on her land.

The level of destruction would not be out of place for a motorway.

joela · 03-10-2011 07:03PM

CDfm wrote: »

She seems to have been royally shafted.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of her farmer neighbours /IFA members does not have an eye on her land.

The level of destruction would not be out of place for a motorway.

Seriously? Are you kidding me? How has she been shafted? That land is poor for agriculture which is why she planted trees and why they are mainly conifers. The conifers will have acidified the soil so it'll be even less useful for agriculture now so why would any famer want it.

Even if they had agreed to underground all those trees would have gone anyone but here is an even better one she would have been felling them in about 5 years for MONEY. Yep filthy lucre!

I am more worried about the people driving this campaign who have claiming permission to go on her land through asking leading questions which they have posted on vimeo but is only a bad voice recording. Then the claim that a "friend" of theirs visited her in prison yesterday and she gave them a note. No scan of note up but strangely the words from the voice recording formed this note. These protestors are using Teresa Treacy and it is far more worrying than her trees being felled.

Paparazzo · 03-10-2011 07:13PM

joela wrote: »

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,640923,724491,5,4

Wonder which one is Woodfield House? And for someone with a emotional attachment to trees, she doesn't mind living beside a sawmill.

CDfm, she has 3 propertys rented and owns a house on 100 acres. You don't have to worry that she'll lose out on a few quid.

joela · 03-10-2011 07:19PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

Wonder which one is Woodfield House? And for someone with a emotional attachment to trees, she doesn't mind living beside a sawmill.

CDfm, she has 3 propertys rented and owns a house on 100 acres. You don't have to worry that she'll lose out on a few quid.

lol:cool: I said she was after more money and I reckon that was what it was about.

I think the Woodfield house is the one with the long drive and the house on the right but not sure. Either way that aint no wildwood.

Where did you get the info about her properties etc Paparazzo? Just wondering as I would be interested to read more.

Paparazzo · 03-10-2011 07:43PM

joela wrote: »

lol:cool: I said she was after more money and I reckon that was what it was about.

I think the Woodfield house is the one with the long drive and the house on the right but not sure. Either way that aint no wildwood.

Where did you get the info about her properties etc Paparazzo? Just wondering as I would be interested to read more.

I actually read the Mail article. Painful as it was.

Teresa worked hard and saved her money which enabled her to purchase three properties around Tullamore which she later rented out.
Mary and Teresa eventually saved up to buy and renovate their dream home, Woodfield House, in Clonmore, outside Tullamore. The 100-acre site is a haven from the hustle and bustle of town life

Here's her house.
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/sep2011/5._teresa_treacy.jpg
Can't see it on google street view. Is it even attached to the tree plantation?

joela · 03-10-2011 08:01PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

I actually read the Mail article. Painful as it was.

Here's her house.
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/sep2011/5._teresa_treacy.jpg
Can't see it on google street view. Is it even attached to the tree plantation?

I only skimmed that mail article as it was making me gag.

Are you looking North or South of the public road? There are two plantations, both roughly the same age and both labelled Clonmore. I think it is the Northern Clonmore because the line will run to the North east part of Tullamore from what I can tell. If I didn't have to work I'd walk the route myself, survey the bloody habitats and provide a report. I reckon the protestors will make a bigger mess than anything else, they are camping out, no bins, no toilets.........

Zen65 · 03-10-2011 09:45PM

joela wrote: »

I reckon the protestors will make a bigger mess than anything else, they are camping out, no bins, no toilets.........

It was famously claimed that the protesters at the Glen-of-the Downs did more damage than the council in the '90's in Wicklow, and caused the loss of more trees. Of course we don't know if that was just propaganda, but there's no doubt they damaged a lot of trees when they dug all those tunnels. I'd be curious to know it they do damage on Ms Treacy's land.

Along the N11 south of Dublin, the road was expanded to dual carriageway between the 1970s and 80s. However, one section languished as a winding single carriageway well after this. The Glen of the Downs is a valley with thick old growth woodland on either side. The plans to widen the road through here surfaced in the 1990s, and immediately protesters spoke out against the proposal. They set up treehouses in the canopy and were widely publicised. However, work began eventually even with the protesters still in situ. In the event, only about 70 trees were felled. In fact, the protesters had to move eventually as it emerged that their presence in the treetops was actually causing damage to the trees. They regrouped and build a new camp further away from the road. Construction progress continued relentlessly though, and finally the project was completed in 2003.

Z

Zen65 · 03-10-2011 09:53PM

Overheal wrote: »

So because ESB is owned by the government, the government is allowed to force its way onto your property?

No.

But because the electricity network is so critical to our nation's security, prosperity and capability the holder of the licence for operating these networks is entitled to apply for Planning Permission for networks where the licence requires it. If PP is granted then the utility is entitled to negotiate a wayleave from landowners to build and maintain such routes as are necessary for the network. In the event that negotiation fails, then arbitration or compulsory purchase is available to the utility as an option.

This is almost identical to the laws in UK, US, France, Germany, Italy, Australia and Spain.

Z

loremolis · 03-10-2011 10:43PM

Zen65 wrote: »

No.

But because the electricity network is so critical to our nation's security, prosperity and capability the holder of the licence for operating these networks is entitled to apply for Planning Permission for networks where the licence requires it. If PP is granted then the utility is entitled to negotiate a wayleave from landowners to build and maintain such routes as are necessary for the network. In the event that negotiation fails, then arbitration or compulsory purchase is available to the utility as an option.

This is almost identical to the laws in UK, US, France, Germany, Italy, Australia and Spain.

Not quite correct.

If planning permission is granted the ESB (not Eirgrid) serves a wayleave notice on the landowner. Any "negotiations" in relation to the amount of compensation and the terms of entry are carried out under the veiled threat of the wayleave notice.

Once the wayleave notice is served they can (in theory) go onto the land after 7 days have passed. There is no compulsory purchase of anything. It's a wayleave not an easement.

The arbitration option is only for the assessment of the amount of compensation. The compensation is only for things like loss of crops, loss of grazing, having to move the cattle to another field so the ESB don't drive over them. There is NO compensation paid for the loss of any land because none is acquired.

It's not the same as the UK laws because the electricity companies in the UK are privatised and do things differently because of that.

Zen65 · 03-10-2011 10:59PM

loremolis wrote: »

If planning permission is granted the ESB (not Eirgrid) serves a wayleave notice on the landowner. Any "negotiations" in relation to the amount of compensation and the terms of entry are carried out under the veiled threat of the wayleave notice.

It is EirGrid, not ESB that negotiates the terms of the wayleave. ESB serves the wayleave, but that is only a technicality as they do not negotiate terms.

There is NO compensation paid for the loss of any land because none is acquired.

Compensation is paid for all new lines at 110kV and above, as is agreed with the IFA. Those payments are made whether or not the landowner is a member of the IFA.

It's not the same as the UK laws because the electricity companies in the UK are privatised and do things differently because of that.

The equivalent UK utilities have the same powers as EirGrid and ESB for the erection of lines. There are administrative differences in how these are enforced, and the PP laws are slightly different. Privatisation is not the issue, nor is it a solution.

Z

The ESB And Eirgrid can go f*ck themselves - Merge

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