Becoming a Real Runner

kennyb3 · 28-09-2011 02:27PM

Hi Niall, sorry it didnt work out for you but fair play for sticking at it and finishing.

I'd have to agree with yourself and Krusty, looks like you were running slightly over your threshold. Had a quick flick over your training there and the 5k (19.22) and 10k (Duns not windy one - 40.22) have you on the cusp of 3'10 mcmillan wise but throw in heat, illness etc and it might have been just slightly too fast. Not running sub 1'30 for half might show this too.

Sit down and critically analyse your own trainig in time, skip over all the day to day runs and look at the races, pmp, reps and tempo's. I think (and only my opinion) a bit more tempo (continous miles - starting with 4m building to 8m) might help - look at your first club session and there was one after you mentioned struggling on. I think doing short reps with nice breaks in between can be bit misleading.

I ve no doubt you ll come back stronger anyway. Bash that sub 90 in Dec and it will give you the confidence.

--amadeus-- · 28-09-2011 02:39PM

I'd back the others - the reason you missed your target this time has got nothing to do with your training or the pace (or your abilities).

You said that you struggled to get your first gel down at 5k and could still feel your breakfast and at 10k you nearly puked with your second gel. Even running at half marathon pace your body wouldn't have been under so much stress that you would have that reaction at such an early stage. And as others have said you managed 10 at PMP in the middle of Longford so not to be able to manage 10 after a taper at the start of Berlin sounds to me like there were other factors.

FWIW I think that something threw you off, possibly the decongestant tablet (especially if you haven't run after taking one before). If I were you I would strip it all right back for your next fast marathon. You put yourself under a lot of additional mental pressure during your race; you were gunning for a time you thought was beyond you, you had mentally set yourself up to suffer and "blow up" in the race, you expected to be running at a HR to high and to be taking more gels than you expected. All of this is in your head at the start and so the first tummy grumble then becomes "proof". Added to this I think you over analysed your race performance while you were running, your splits sounded fine up to 10k but you were worried you didn't seem far enough up on time and you were constantly speeding up to get the Garmin to match your needed pace. Personally I just manually lap the watch at every km marker - that way every 4:xx minutes you get a track of your splits and it keeps you focussed. Keep those individual splits under control and forget about the rest, the bigger targets will look after themselves if the smaller targets are in line. I don't know if you wore your HRM in the race but again I personally wouldn't - what will you do if your HR is high, slow down?! It's just another stress trigger.

Simplify your race strategy and have a bit of self belief and you will rocket through 3:10, absolutely no doubt.

menoscemo · 28-09-2011 02:41PM

kennyb3 wrote: »

Hi Niall, sorry it didnt work out for you but fair play for sticking at it and finishing.

I'd have to agree with yourself and Krusty, looks like you were running slightly over your threshold. Had a quick flick over your training there and the 5k (19.22) and 10k (Duns not windy one - 40.22) have you on the cusp of 3'10 mcmillan wise but throw in heat, illness etc and it might have been just slightly too fast. Not running sub 1'30 for half might show this too.

Sit down and critically analyse your own trainig in time, skip over all the day to day runs and look at the races, pmp, reps and tempo's. I think (and only my opinion) a bit more tempo (continous miles - starting with 4m building to 8m) might help - look at your first club session and there was one after you mentioned struggling on. I think doing short reps with nice breaks in between can be bit misleading.

I ve no doubt you ll come back stronger anyway. Bash that sub 90 in Dec and it will give you the confidence.

You're 100% right here Brian and i know it myself. I was only saying it to the lads after the race. I know I need more HM paced tempos and 10k paced long intervals (2 mile reps etc). These are tough runs that i tend to avoid...

I also need to run my long runs a touch faster with more PMP miles. It may also be time to step away from P&D programmes and concentrate on specific things that'll bring me on.

I progressed a lot at the start of the year due simply to increased miles but have now plateaued. Hopefully with the base i have given myself this year I can keep up the miles and add more quality without risking injury....

menoscemo · 28-09-2011 02:52PM

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I don't know if you wore your HRM in the race but again I personally wouldn't - what will you do if your HR is high, slow down?! It's just another stress trigger.

Nope, I didn't even bring it with me.
When I wear it I have the watch set up so i don't even see it during a run, it's just something I analyse after the run. I noticed in PMP sessions during training that the HR was much higher than it should be.

R.E. what you and Ray said about the 10 miles in Longford: I was actually through 10 miles in Berlin (by the Garmin) 15 seconds faster than I did them in Longford

In longford I knew they were done after 10 and mentally this is so much easier. In Berlin I knew there were another 16.2miles to come- different ball game!!

pgmcpq · 28-09-2011 05:00PM

Meno, sorry to hear that Berlin didn't pan out as expected. Looking at the splits, have you considered that maybe you went a bit too fast over the middle miles ? Back in Barca I dropped in a 6.5x(?) mile when I was trying to get away from that nutty 3.15 pace group. I've wondered if I paid the price for this a few miles later. Some of your miles splits are below 3.10 pace.

You clearly are very close to a 3.10 and beyond, you have a base I would love to have. I don't think there is very much wrong here.

I am a bit surprised that you did not have the HRM with you

. Waching your log had almost persuaded me to take it on my next marathon attempt.

menoscemo · 28-09-2011 06:31PM

pgmcpq wrote: »

Meno, sorry to hear that Berlin didn't pan out as expected. Looking at the splits, have you considered that maybe you went a bit too fast over the middle miles ? Back in Barca I dropped in a 6.5x(?) mile when I was trying to get away from that nutty 3.15 pace group. I've wondered if I paid the price for this a few miles later. Some of your miles splits are below 3.10 pace.

You clearly are very close to a 3.10 and beyond, you have a base I would love to have. I don't think there is very much wrong here.

I am a bit surprised that you did not have the HRM with you . Waching your log had almost persuaded me to take it on my next marathon attempt.

I never was more than a second up on Goal from 5k -15k. You just have to go a bit faster than 7'15 pace to 'really' be doing that according to the course. The Garmin definitely measured the majority of the quarter mile extra over the first HM.

I meant to bring the HRM. I always find it is the perfect solution for niple chafe, but I just forgot it!!

menoscemo · 28-09-2011 06:36PM

3.5 miles on grass around Tymon. Legs felt fine. I wore the new Mizuno and they feel really comfortable. Feels like I am really striking on the dead midfoot with these shoes.
3 miles were @ 9 min/mile and dropped the pace to sub 8 for the last half a mile. Av HR 136

WTD 1 Run 3.5 miles

Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
January|28/31|256.3
February|24/28|236.9
March|23/31|221.9
April|22/30|150.2
May|25/31|198.5
June|24/30|173.2
July|28/31|269.4
August|23/31|237.6
September|21/28|194.9
Total|213/269|1979.5

tunguska · 28-09-2011 07:41PM

shels4ever wrote: »

Do you think that the 6-7 other Marathons that you have done since barca could be a factor ? I know they were mostly at easy pace but must take its toll in the long run.

+1. I hate to kick a man when he's down but Niall running so many marathons in one year just doesnt seem constructive. Even discounting the slow pace or whatever, mentally they dilute your focus. Why not just try and run one really good marathon over the course of 1 year. Mentally you'll be fresh, physically you'll be like a caged animal by the time you get to the start line.
Would you consider Knocking the pacing gigs on the head? I dont see how running a half marathon in 2 hours contributes positively to your training and racing. Why not give everything to your racing, forget about anything else for the moment. I think it would be a wise move to train with a group composed of runners who are faster than you and also lads at your own level. Dont do important sessions with slower runners, that'll get you nowhere. I mean you can run your recoveries with friends etc but for quality sessions you need to train with lads who'll push you to the brink, who wont let you away with giving up during a session. That'll drag you up to the next level, fast.

TheRoadRunner · 28-09-2011 07:51PM

tunguska wrote: »

+1. I hate to kick a man when he's down but Niall running so many marathons in one year just doesnt seem constructive. Even discounting the slow pace or whatever, mentally they dilute your focus. Why not just try and run one really good marathon over the course of 1 year. Mentally you'll be fresh, physically you'll be like a caged animal by the time you get to the start line.
Would you consider Knocking the pacing gigs on the head? I dont see how running a half marathon in 2 hours contributes positively to your training and racing. Why not give everything to your racing, forget about anything else for the moment. I think it would be a wise move to train with a group composed of runners who are faster than you and also lads at your own level. Dont do important sessions with slower runners, that'll get you nowhere. I mean you can run your recoveries with friends etc but for quality sessions you need to train with lads who'll push you to the brink, who wont let you away with giving up during a session. That'll drag you up to the next level, fast.

+1 If you want to get faster you may need to rest up a little better and cut out some of the pacing gigs. I know Longford wasn't a pacing gig but I think it may have been your downfall. You need a bit of zip on the day and running 26 miles + 6 other marathons, regardless of pace during the year will take a toll. Think of the days you need to rest before and after running that far. Sure some experienced runners regularly run over 26 miles but they are few and far between and are out of our leagues.

I'd also look at the pace of some of your runs. You've joined a club with some experienced heads, get one of them to give you a schedule and really focus on one race. I think you have come on huge leaps and bounds over the last while but may be leveling off. Might be time for a shock to your system.

menoscemo · 28-09-2011 07:54PM

tunguska wrote: »

+1. I hate to kick a man when he's down but Niall running so many marathons in one year just doesnt seem constructive. Even discounting the slow pace or whatever, mentally they dilute your focus. Why not just try and run one really good marathon over the course of 1 year. Mentally you'll be fresh, physically you'll be like a caged animal by the time you get to the start line.
Would you consider Knocking the pacing gigs on the head? I dont see how running a half marathon in 2 hours contributes positively to your training and racing. Why not give everything to your racing, forget about anything else for the moment. I think it would be a wise move to train with a group composed of runners who are faster than you and also lads at your own level. Dont do important sessions with slower runners, that'll get you nowhere. I mean you can run your recoveries with friends etc but for quality sessions you need to train with lads who'll push you to the brink, who wont let you away with giving up during a session. That'll drag you up to the next level, fast.

Thanks Eoin. After Conn Ultra I will not be doing any marathons or pacing gigs and concentrating on Berlin next september (gives me 6 months).

But I have to do Conn Ultra- I have a little revenge to take out on that course as well.

In the meantime yes- I'm definitely gonna get more involved in the club and running faster.

brownian · 29-09-2011 07:22AM

menoscemo wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

+1. I hate to kick a man when he's down but Niall running so many marathons in one year just doesnt seem constructive. Even discounting the slow pace or whatever, mentally they dilute your focus. Why not just try and run one really good marathon over the course of 1 year. Mentally you'll be fresh, physically you'll be like a caged animal by the time you get to the start line.
Would you consider Knocking the pacing gigs on the head? I dont see how running a half marathon in 2 hours contributes positively to your training and racing. Why not give everything to your racing, forget about anything else for the moment. I think it would be a wise move to train with a group composed of runners who are faster than you and also lads at your own level. Dont do important sessions with slower runners, that'll get you nowhere. I mean you can run your recoveries with friends etc but for quality sessions you need to train with lads who'll push you to the brink, who wont let you away with giving up during a session. That'll drag you up to the next level, fast.

Thanks Eoin. After Conn Ultra I will not be doing any marathons or pacing gigs and concentrating on Berlin next september (gives me 6 months).

But I have to do Conn Ultra- I have a little revenge to take out on that course as well.

In the meantime yes- I'm definitely gonna get more involved in the club and running faster.

+2 on this. I've really found getting a few runs with hardy men like ecoli and krusty and theroadrunner has been very beneficial. Puts you in a mental place that let's you see that your idea of "fast" is really just a stepping stone. Best of all, you do the runs and the body adapts.
Not sure what the quick lads get out of it, but the slower guy really benefits.

shazkea · 29-09-2011 11:23AM

Meno just catchin up on logs now. Absolute crap the race didn't go to plan but respect for sticking it out. Onwards and upwards mate.

menoscemo · 30-09-2011 07:44PM

Legs have been feeling pretty much perfect for the last few days but work has been a pain in the arse. Haven't been home until after 9pm since tuesday, so I have only got one run until today. Even today I am just home from work now but I managed to find a window this evening and got out for a hilly run. In the interest of getting a bit faster I have decided to take the advice above and stop taking my easy runs at such a slack pace. This evening the miles were easily all sub 8 min/mile without feeling at all hard despite the hills

5.1 miles @ 7'44 pace. Got back to work at 5 miles so had to do an extra loop to make up 200 miles for the month. Next month should be similar in terms of mileage but with a lot more quality and hopefully a few races.

WTD 2 Runs 8.6 miles

Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
January|28/31|256.3
February|24/28|236.9
March|23/31|221.9
April|22/30|150.2
May|25/31|198.5
June|24/30|173.2
July|28/31|269.4
August|23/31|237.6
September|22/30|200
Total|214/271|1984.6

TheRoadRunner · 30-09-2011 08:39PM

menoscemo wrote: »

In the interest of getting a bit faster I have decided to take the advice above and stop taking my easy runs at such a slack pace. This evening the miles were easily all sub 8 min/mile without feeling at all hard despite the hills

No need to start upping the pace just yet. Take a few weeks to let the body fully recover. My 2 recovery runs so far have been slower than your run today and will be doing something similar next week

menoscemo · 30-09-2011 08:52PM

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

No need to start upping the pace just yet. Take a few weeks to let the body fully recover. My 2 recovery runs so far have been slower than your run today and will be doing something similar next week

Normally I'd agreee with you- i'd be in bits for a week even after racing a half Marathon. I remember going for 10 at 9'30/mile about 10 days after Dublin last year and having to quit after 6.
However, Giving up/breaking down after 15 seems to have saved the legs a battering in Berlin. I'd normally not feel this fresh. I'll go with the flow and do what my body tells me I guess.

Oisin11178 · 30-09-2011 09:27PM

menoscemo wrote: »

Normally I'd agreee with you- i'd be in bits for a week even after racing a half Marathon. I remember going for 10 at 9'30/mile about 10 days after Dublin last year and having to quit after 6.
However, Giving up/breaking down after 15 seems to have saved the legs a battering in Berlin. I'd normally not feel this fresh. I'll go with the flow and do what my body tells me I guess.

It was more than likely longford that did you in berlin id say. Im still struggling from the 24 hour in belfast, im sleeping 10 hours a day still. Take it easy for a couple of weeks bud. Loadsa time to train for another marathon. I know when you dont get your goal there is a big tepmtation to get stuck back in and have another go asap but you will burn yourself out. Just look at me im ****ed:P

tunguska · 01-10-2011 11:48AM

menoscemo wrote: »

In the interest of getting a bit faster I have decided to take the advice above and stop taking my easy runs at such a slack pace. This evening the miles were easily all sub 8 min/mile without feeling at all hard despite the hills

I know we were advising you to run faster, and its great you're making some changes. But running faster on your recovery days would be counter productive. I used to run my non session days at 6:40s, 6:50s, even 6:30s. But that was ridiculous. This year I made a pledge to run recoveries at a pace that was nice and easy, I've been running at anywhere between 7:20 and 8mins/mile and the difference to my racing and session days is massive. No need to run your recoveries especially slow, just make sure they're fairly effortless, whatever pace that may be. The important thing is to nail the quality sessions, make your hard days hard and your easy days easy. Simple.

menoscemo · 01-10-2011 01:19PM

tunguska wrote: »

I know we were advising you to run faster, and its great you're making some changes. But running faster on your recovery days would be counter productive. I used to run my non session days at 6:40s, 6:50s, even 6:30s. But that was ridiculous. This year I made a pledge to run recoveries at a pace that was nice and easy, I've been running at anywhere between 7:20 and 8mins/mile and the difference to my racing and session days is massive. No need to run your recoveries especially slow, just make sure they're fairly effortless, whatever pace that may be. The important thing is to nail the quality sessions, make your hard days hard and your easy days easy. Simple.

Yeah no worries, but I have been running my 'steady' and Long runs pretty much at 8'30/mile which is only about 10 seconds per mile slower than recovery pace. I was pretty much being lazy on my non recovery/non session days. I still intend to to run recoveries slow but there is no need for 5 recoveries a week

.

The only time I was getting within a minute /mile of MP was on specific MP sessions (which were few and far between). My only intention now is to do steady/general Aerobic (GA) runs a bit faster than before. Sessions will still be sessions and Recoveries will still be recoveries.

menoscemo · 02-10-2011 12:21PM

Saturday 1st October
4.8 miles @ 8'23 pace. Felt really easy. Heart Rate was in the recovery zone all the way around (138) which is an all time low for this pace. Body seesm to be fully recovered and fitness up.

Sunday
Agreed to meet Mr Slow for some of his PMP session. I met him after the Rugby match at 10.30 so he had already a warm up and 5.4 PMP miles done, so I did 8.6 @ 7'43 and a 2.1mile warm down taking in some of the Kids cross country races. Really enjoyed the run this morning.

Weekly total 4 Runs 24.1 miles

Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
January|28/31|256.3
February|24/28|236.9
March|23/31|221.9
April|22/30|150.2
May|25/31|198.5
June|24/30|173.2
July|28/31|269.4
August|23/31|237.6
September|22/30|200
October|2/2|15.5
Total|216/273|2000.1

Wow, just realised for the first time that I have now cleared 2000 for the year. Had no idea this morning

jcsmum · 02-10-2011 01:02PM

Wow, well done on reaching 2000! And we still have a long way to go to year end.

ronnie085 · 02-10-2011 09:18PM

Congrats on the 2000, was hoping you might take a couple of weeks off after Berlin, I should have known better :pac:

menoscemo · 02-10-2011 09:20PM

ronnie085 wrote: »

Congrats on the 2000, was hoping you might take a couple of weeks off after Berlin, I should have known better :pac:

I was secretly happy that you got injured back in the summer :eek: Feel bad saying that

ronnie085 · 03-10-2011 12:47PM

menoscemo wrote: »

I was secretly happy that you got injured back in the summer :eek: Feel bad saying that

Ah now thats not very sportsman like:p

outforarun · 03-10-2011 08:37PM

Just catching up on logs. Fantastic race report. I'm sorry you didn't hit your target time, I would have put good money on you doing so. Big thumbs up for stepping back onto that road and running to the finish line. Personally I'm convinced that we learn more from our 'bad' races than the good ones. Sure it's nice to re-read our PB race reports, but the the not so good races have there own narrative, equally valid. All part of the 'fun' of running. Big congratulations on hitting 2000.

Aimman · 04-10-2011 12:24PM

well done on covering 2k, sure you'll break 3k before the year is out

average_runner · 04-10-2011 12:38PM

You doing Donadea Sat week?

Congrats on 2000 mark.

menoscemo · 04-10-2011 07:20PM

average_runner wrote: »

You doing Donadea Sat week?

Congrats on 2000 mark.

Nope, I'm at a wedding in England. I am planning on doing the racepix 5k the week after, then targetting the waterford half in december.

menoscemo · 04-10-2011 07:32PM

Monday 4th October
Went to Tymon after work to do a 5-6ish mile recovery run. I met up with a few clubmates after a mile and ended up doing a few more than planned. All on Grass and well inside recovery pace though...
8 miles @ 9'06 pace.

Tuesday 5th October
I heard on monday that the club do 800m reps on tuesdays so I met up with a few at 6:15 for a few warmup miles. I realised after half a mile that they were going way too fast for a wrm up so asked and they were actually doing a tempo run :rolleyes: Still pace was 7:30is which was ok, I turned back after 2 miles and went back to the track for my workout, slowed th pace down a bit on the way back.
3.1 miles @ 7'44 pace (148 HR shows it was still nice and easy).

Got to the track and met Woddle, we couldn't find any group session so I did my own: Mile easy then 6 x 800m with 90 seconds rest. 3'01, 2'57, 3'01, 3'01, 3'03, 3'03. These felt good for the first time doing something like this in a while, faded a bit for the last two but nothing major. The plan is to build it up to doing 10 reps over the next 4 weeks and then get the speed down under 3 minutes.

8.2 miles total for the day

WTD 2 Runs 16.2 miles

Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
January|28/31|256.3
February|24/28|236.9
March|23/31|221.9
April|22/30|150.2
May|25/31|198.5
June|24/30|173.2
July|28/31|269.4
August|23/31|237.6
September|22/30|200
October|4/4|31.7
Total|218/275|2016.3

menoscemo · 06-10-2011 07:39PM

Wednesday 5th October
3.5 miles Recovery @ 9'30 pace (124 Av HR) was planning 5-6 miles but the legs were shagged after last nights intervals so I stopped after a long lap of Tymon. Nice not to be following a plan

Thursday 6th
4 x 1 mile @ 10k effort with 3 minutes jog recovery 6:32, 6:34, 6:35, 6:34 Wind really affected pace as I did these on tallaght track and the back straight was horrendous. Legs a little heavy so I left it a 4 reps (was planning 6). HR of 162 for all the reps show there is plenty left cardiovascularly, I'd normally be in the 170's for this kind of workout. Plan for these is to build up to 6 mile reps next week and then start to introcuce 2 mile reps until I get to 3x 2 miles (ala Mcmillan 10k workouts). I might leave them to friday next week to recover more from tuesdays 800's.

Total mileage for the day 6.6 miles

WTD 4 Runs 26.3 miles

Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
January|28/31|256.3
February|24/28|236.9
March|23/31|221.9
April|22/30|150.2
May|25/31|198.5
June|24/30|173.2
July|28/31|269.4
August|23/31|237.6
September|22/30|200
October|6/6|41.8
Total|220/277|2026.4

liamo123 · 06-10-2011 07:41PM

Good stuff Meno... Back in business.... What up next 4 u besides pacing DCM ???

Becoming a Real Runner

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