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Becoming a Real Runner

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭digger2d2


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Garmin link here. tougghest race I've run. managed to hold pace until mile 15 then the wheels came off. By 18 I whas stopped and was looking for a metro. Gave myself a good talking to and managed to jog home in 3'26 afterwards but it was one of the tougghest thins I have had to do.

    Full report on Tuesday, wifi flaky here.

    Look forward to your report mate, well done for battling through!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,687 ✭✭✭tHE vAGGABOND


    Looking forward to the report - but I hope you kids have a great night over there, a brilliant city to make a complete mess of yourselves :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭theboyblunder


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Garmin link here. tougghest race I've run. managed to hold pace until mile 15 then the wheels came off. By 18 I whas stopped and was looking for a metro. Gave myself a good talking to and managed to jog home in 3'26 afterwards but it was one of the tougghest thins I have had to do.

    Full report on Tuesday, wifi flaky here.

    Hard luck meno. Tough day - looked pretty hot on the telly by the end. better luck next time - enjoy the oscar wilde :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭ronnie085


    Hard luck today, fair play for sticking with it, horrible feeling when the wheels fall off, although not many people can say the ran with and beat the great geb:pac:

    Enjoy the pints


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Garmin link here. tougghest race I've run. managed to hold pace until mile 15 then the wheels came off. By 18 I whas stopped and was looking for a metro. Gave myself a good talking to and managed to jog home in 3'26 afterwards but it was one of the tougghest thins I have had to do.

    Full report on Tuesday, wifi flaky here.
    Its happened to me a few time in the early days. Makes you stronger in the long run.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭RubyK


    Sorry to read you didn't have the race you hoped for. But, you don't sound like they type of person to be beaten by a bad experience. Onwards and upwards :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭misty floyd


    Oisin11178 wrote: »
    Makes you stronger in the long run.

    This! Exactly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    digger2d2 wrote: »
    Look forward to your report mate, well done for battling through!

    +1 on this!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    Having experiend the same **Kaboom** in London this year you will come out of that experience a better runner. Even for completing it when the body wants to stop is gutsy enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭Seres


    Aw Meno , really sorry the race didnt go to plan ! , look for the positives in the experience , you'll prob learn more from this marathon than any others you have ran to date .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭village runner


    Sorry to hear that lad. I knew at 37k it wasnt to be your day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭eliwallach


    Hard luck N.
    It was a hot one.

    PS nice tip on the straw.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Berlin Marathon Race Report

    My PB before the race was 3’24 from Barcelona in march the week after a 50k race and I had found 3’24 quite comfortable. I had ‘done’ 6 or 7 marathons since then, but they were either pacing gigs, Ultras or Training runs so I never really aggressively chased a time and never suffered (I had never hit any kind of wall in a marathon since my first effort back in 2009). When I entered Berlin back in February I decided it would be my one ‘fast’ marathon of the year. When choosing a goal time in June, I decided to be bold and go for 3’10 rather than 3’15, simply because sub 3’10 would mean qualifying for London and 3’15 offers no reward other than a solid PB. I knew this would be a big ask as none of my short race time even suggested 3’10 was on according to Mcmillan, but feck it I thought. I’m prepared to blow up chasing a fast time, it’s about time I suffered in a Marathon again :D

    Fast forward a few months and after an up and down training programme upset by a few bouts of sickness and a few races offering no PB improvements (HM in Midlands and 10k in Blessington) I am pig headedly sticking to my 3’10 goal, despite the signs being against me. I was buoyed by my training marathon in Longford when I race 10 miles at PMP and finished only a few minutes outside PB despite running the other 16.2 easy. Still I know that holding 7’10 pace for 26.2 would be a whole other ball game. I head to Berlin feeling a bit like a kamikaze pilot.

    Pre-race
    Everything went well, Landed on Friday and had a good nights sleep. Spent Saturday lounging around the city with Brian, watching football and eating loads. I got a good few hours sleep on Saturday night and was up at 6’30 for my breakfast. My only health worry was the remnants of a cold, a little phlegm at the back of my throat but I took a decongestant tablet and headed down to the start line with Brian not feeling too nervous. Got into the pen about 20 minutes before the off, armed with a pouch containing 9 gels and electrolytes. The plan was to take a gel at the start line and one at every water station until I couldn’t stomach them any more. I knew I was going to be burning Glycogen only at goal pace so the idea was to get as much sugar into me as soon as possible to save the stuff for later. I knew by experience that I wouldn’t be able to stomach the gels late in the race…

    Race
    0-12km

    I started in Pen D, but the road was divided in two. I noticed the left hand side was less crowded so I joined there and was over the line in exactly a minute. The first mile was still a little crowded and I clocked a slowish 7’28 but knew not to panic. Miles 2 and 3 were 7’07 and 7’06 and as I went through 5k I was bang on target pace. I took my first gel here and drank a cup of water through my straw. The stomach didn’t really like it and I could still feel my breakfast there too. Running wise I got into a bit of rhythm though knocking out 7’09, 7’02 and a 7’13. You would think I’d now have banked a good few seconds (goal pace should be 7’15) but by 10k I am only 1 second up :o. I am fighting a constant battle with my garmin and pace band and I constantly have to up the pace to match the band. I know the pace is unsustainable but I push on regardless. I take my second gel at 10k and nearly puke. The stomach is rumbling something fierce and I have to concentrate to keep it down. I decide I am going to hold off on the gels for a while till I feel a bit better, I concentrate on just getting water for a while (but even that feels tough to stomach). At just past 10k I spot an Irish vest just in front of me pacing the same pace. From his top I see he is Declan. I speed up momentarily to have a chat, but manage one sentence before dropping back. Even talking is making me feel ill. A minute from 10 yards back later I see Declan turn round to talk to the guy on his shoulder, thinking it’s me, but it’s some German guy who does not understand him. It almost makes me chuckle but I am only able to concentrate in my own little world. I am trying to block out the realisation that 20 more miles at this pace is going to kill me. Keep going a few miles and you’ll surely start to feel better I tell myself. Miles 7 and 8 are 7’12 and 7’17. I should be still on course but I am drifting a few seconds behind time. I decide to stop looking at my pace band religiously and just run comfortable hard….

    Pain Cave (miles 8-18)

    This is a phrase I borrowed from Jackyback after reading his IM account and pretty much sums up the next 10 miles. There are thousands of people around me, runners and spectators and all I can see is the blue line in front of me and my own feet. I am in my own world and suffering. I feel like I am holding pace, I am certainly holding effort but I know that 3’10 is slipping. Miles 9-13 are 7’02, 7’14, 7’16, 7’25, 7’25. I actually can’t believe mile 9 was that fast reading it now. I don’t think I looked at my watch until halfway and it was just a brief glance then. I figured I was 30 seconds down on 3’10, but told myself maybe I could still get it back. Who was I kidding? Mile 14 was 7’14 and I remember looking at my watch to see the mile bleep. Briefly I told myself I was back. I almost felt comfortable for the first time in an hour, I even risked another gel at this point. I knew I would need it if I was going to make it. But no, the stomach fell apart again and I was finding it hard to fight now. The puking was on the way. Slow down or you’ll be sick. I decide to push as hard as possible while avoiding littering the streets. Miles 15-17 are 7’30, 7’46, 7’55. As you see the wheels are well and truly off now. I’m expecting the 3’15 group to go flying by me any minute. Dig deep I say and maybe I can keep them off. At this point I look at the Garmin briefly and see 8’xx. This is where I lose the head. My body is in pain and I am going backwards. My whole race is out the window. I look up and see the 27k marker, it seems like I have been going for hours since half way and It’s less than 6k, over 15 to go. I have no secondary goal to fall back on and I am on the road to nowhere fast. I wanted to see what blowing up was like and I am learning that it’s not much fun. At 17.5 miles I step off the road, and stop the watch. My only thought is where the nearest metro station is….

    Give up the ghost
    I am stopped for 20 seconds but it seems like a lifetime, loads of thoughts are going through my head- how will I justify a DNF on my log? I won’t deserve the night out, Will I get into the finishers area to meet Brian who’ll be waiting for me? Finally I though of Village runner who was at 37k waiting for me with a bottle of powerade. I start the watch again and start walking, I’ll decide what to do as I go. A spectator then starts shouting at me telling me to run!! I get on the road and start a very slow jog. Next thing I know the pace is comfortable and all of a sudden I’m not struggling anymore. At that point I decide to finish out the race but stop struggling for time, there’s no point. I’ll take what I get. The 3’15 train goes shooting past and I am not on it. In fact 3’20 is even out the window. The miles start ticking off and I almost start to enjoy it, for the first time in the race I can soak up the atmosphere. I’d say I was well dehydrated at this point but the water stations come thick and fast. I stop at most and drink a few cups. The miles go by and I start feeling better. They are not even as slow as they seem. 9’10 (with the stop), 8’37, 8’31, 8’56, 8’42. I meet village runner who has patiently waited for me and hands me my powerade. I feel bad because I don’t even need it or want it now. I take it off him anyway and say thanks. I take two sips and when I’m out of sight I throw it away!! I know I am nearly home now and can even speed up a bit. 8’39, 8’35, 8’21. I’ll definitely finish now. For the first time in 2 hours I am actually passing people :D 8’17 for mile 26 and 7’46 pace for the last .45.

    I have never been so glad to see a finish line!!

    Brian is waiting for me at the line with a similar story to my own, we make our way slowly through the finish and after a massage head back to the hotel and then its on to the Oscar Wilde for a bite of food and the first of many pints. Great to hear the heroic tales from The Road Runner and Liamo and as the night goes on the place fills with boardsies and everyone has great craic. Off the top of my head we meet, Jbski, NeilC, marathastew and partners as well as Opus and a few more. Things get drunker and stories are exchanged. The place is full of Irish Runners many of whom are running Dublin and I win a few brownie points of many when I tell them I’m pacing 4 hours there. The next day on the plane, I’ recognised by about 10 who tell me they’ll be following me in DCM, but my memories of them are flaky at best :o.


    The aftermath

    What went wrong? I could blame the heat, being sick, the stomach, the training programme, but at the end of the day the answer is simple. I was going too fast for my abilities and paid for it. I have learned there is a fine line in marathon between feeling good and blowing up and I crossed it. I think If I had went with a slightly more conservative goal, like 3’15 I probably would have made it and set a nice PB, but the truth is I am not in any way annoyed or disappointed. I have no regrets. I am glad I had the balls to set a tough goal and go for it 100%. I have learned a lot from the race and there’ll be other marathons soon and I am sure the next time I will pick a more achievable goal and set it. London Qualifying will have to wait another year. I have a feeling I will give it a lash in the same race next year.


    Weekly total 5 Runs 47.3 miles

    Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
    January|28/31|256.3
    February|24/28|236.9
    March|23/31|221.9
    April|22/30|150.2
    May|25/31|198.5
    June|24/30|173.2
    July|28/31|269.4
    August|23/31|237.6
    September|20/25|191.4
    Total|212/267|1976


  • Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭slowsteady


    Good, insightful report. Pity the ending was not the happy one you wanted but as you said you learned from it and you will be (older and;)) wiser next year.

    With my issues the past few months I have been debating whether to hold to the plan for DCM and possibly crash and burn or to cut back the aspirations and just enjoy it. Whatever I decide to do, I now know what the first option might feel like:p. Thanks for that.

    Aim for the stars and one day you might get there - you tried:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭mithril


    I don't agree with your conclusion. Your repeats were as fast as I was managing when targeting sub 3 and the back to back marathon runs indicates stamina was not a problem. There was something wrong in the mix on the day, either training program, adjusting to the heat or you went into the race not at 100% due to a cold. You are the best person to identify what it is. I would not wait until the Spring. Give Dublin a good lash and you will probably PB, or worst case identify what you need to focus on to break 3:10


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,492 ✭✭✭Woddle


    Well done meno, you gave it 110%. I don't think anyone who follows your log doubts you can go 3:10 but maybe you're a sprinter afterall :D

    I think mithrill could be on to sth aswell as I would have had my house on you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭digger2d2


    Woddle wrote: »
    Well done meno, you gave it 110%. I don't think anyone who follows your log doubts you can go 3:10 but maybe you're a sprinter afterall :D

    I think mithrill could be on to sth aswell as I would have had my house on you.

    The last time I saw Meno sprinting in UCD, some Dude asked him if he was a 'Master':)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    menoscemo wrote: »
    I am pig headed

    :D

    Sorry the race didn't work out but you didn't opt out as others might have, well done!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    mithril wrote: »
    I don't agree with your conclusion. Your repeats were as fast as I was managing when targeting sub 3 and the back to back marathon runs indicates stamina was not a problem. There was something wrong in the mix on the day, either training program, adjusting to the heat or you went into the race not at 100% due to a cold. You are the best person to identify what it is. I would not wait until the Spring. Give Dublin a good lash and you will probably PB, or worst case identify what you need to focus on to break 3:10

    I'd love to be racing dublin but I am committed to pacing it (4hrs). Might not get another marathon until the spring.

    If I'm being honest, the HR for PMP miles was always to high to sustain for a marathon (160+ when my normal Mara HR is low to mid 150's), hence my need to take so many gels....


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    You could do 10 marathon pace miles in Longford, in the middle of a marathon, and you couldn't manage it over the first ten miles of Berlin. I agree with Mithril, you should have been capable of that 3.09 (or at least got much closer to the end before blowing up :) ) so it's worth trying to figure out what went wrong. How did your other PMP runs go? What did you eat on the morning/day before? Was it nerves? Have you taken gels at the start like that before?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    Do you think that the 6-7 other Marathons that you have done since barca could be a factor ? I know they were mostly at easy pace but must take its toll in the long run.
    I've no doubt that you will go 3:10 next time you race one, just recover well and enjoy Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,507 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    menoscemo wrote: »
    I'd love to be racing dublin but I am committed to pacing it (4hrs). Might not get another marathon until the spring.

    If I'm being honest, the HR for PMP miles was always to high to sustain for a marathon (160+ when my normal Mara HR is low to mid 150's), hence my need to take so many gels....
    Sorry to hear about your woes, but glad you had the mental strength to keep plugging away. Not so sure how the gels would have helped with your marathon pace heart rate. In fact the sugar (+caffeine?) is more likely to increase your heart rate as your metabolism has to deal with the sugar injection. The only way to lower the HR for PMP miles is sessions and general conditioning.

    Like you said yourself, you may have just worked a little bit beyond your comfort zone (e.g. LT threshold). Had you gone out at 3:15, you may have been within your comfort zone and could have pushed on from 20 miles for a 3:10-3:12 finish). At the end of the day, there's no right or wrong approach. Sometimes you take the risks and you blow up. Sometimes you don't and feel underwhelmed/question your strategy. It's a shame that marathons take 3 months preparation, as when you don't get it spot-on, it's quite a long ramp-up time before you get to try it again. I reckon I'm very much at risk of suffering a similar fate in a couple of weeks time, but what the hell. Who who dares, gins. You could always try to maintain the marathon fitness and have another go (at the 3:15 target) in Clonakilty in December.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭Brianderunner


    You could always try to maintain the marathon fitness and have another go (at the 3:15 target) in Clonakilty in December.

    Or Luton, i've promised to be the support vehicle if he does it :) Both options rule out Waterford half though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    Or Luton, i've promised to be the support vehicle if he does it :) Both options rule out Waterford half though.

    When is Luton?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭Brianderunner


    shels4ever wrote: »
    When is Luton?

    First weekend in December usually. I did it in 2007. About 1,000 runners and 3 laps. Cancelled twice due to the weather since. The airport is a big plus if your coming from Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭eliwallach


    You could always try to maintain the marathon fitness and have another go (at the 3:15 target) in Clonakilty in December.

    Would not recommend Clonalilty for a PB attempt - the hills are numerous and steep and are sure to disrupt the best pacing skills. Plus (with the severe winters in the past couple of years) ther is a strong possibiliy of cancellation which would give another training programme an unsatisfactory outcome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,985 ✭✭✭opus


    Great report, wish I could bring the race to life like that! You were saying in the bar that maybe your long runs were a little slow so maybe something to focus on for next time. I´ll send you the little spreadsheet I was using for them once I get back home next week in case it´s of any use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Or Luton, i've promised to be the support vehicle if he does it :) Both options rule out Waterford half though.

    I'll probably give the waterford Half a lash as it has been a target of mine all year to run a sub 1'30 half and I am pretty sure I can do it there. I'll probably wait until the spring and do Blackpool Marathon (11th march). It's nice and flat and fits nicely between the Donadea 50k and the Conn Ultra.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    Ah the tm"Pain Cave" not a nice place to be. Surprised you started to suffer so early in the race with the pace, as another poster mentioned there may have been other factors at play for you to start to suffer as early considering you were knocking out 10 miles @ PMP in some of your training runs.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    menoscemo wrote: »
    I'll probably give the waterford Half a lash as it has been a target of mine all year to run a sub 1'30 half and I am pretty sure I can do it there. I'll probably wait until the spring and do Blackpool Marathon (11th march). It's nice and flat and fits nicely between the Donadea 50k and the Conn Ultra.

    Road Trip! trink42.gif


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