Teaching Council

Printer wrote: »

...What if you are unqualified substitute? Do you still get paid as normal for hours you do?

Not sure about other places, but in my VEC, there is a qualified rate and an unqualified rate - depends on whether you have a HDE or not (or the equivalent)

carolmon wrote: »

They are Nazis when it comes to recognition, I'm still "unqualifed" according to them despite a Ist class HDip in Adult/ Community Ed/ Learning Support and TEFL diplomas..............
Having graduated from four Unis I don't consider myself "unqualifed" and resent the term.

There has to be a broader approach to what constitutes "qualified".

It's too narrow nowadays to disregard relevant qualifications and insist on one specific qualification as being the definitive decider.
It also gives a false perspective to people who don't understand the mysterious workings of the Teaching Council - "unqualified" is really not the correct term and does not mean that all "unqualified" teachers have not got teacher training and degrees.

"Unrecognised" would be a better description.

Looks like I've exhausted all routes to full recognition and will have to re apply to do the conventional HDip.

I would agree that the term could do with some work! But, without meaning to sound too harsh, if you want to teach secondary school, you have to be qualified in teaching secondary school students. That means having a degree in 'teachable' subjects and a PGD in secondary education. While the TC can be a complete balls, I'd agree with what they are trying to do in regulating the qualifications of those in the profession.

carolmon wrote: »

They are Nazis when it comes to recognition, I'm still "unqualifed" according to them despite a Ist class HDip in Adult/ Community Ed/ Learning Support and TEFL diplomas..............
Having graduated from four Unis I don't consider myself "unqualifed" and resent the term.

There has to be a broader approach to what constitutes "qualified".


Looks like I've exhausted all routes to full recognition and will have to re apply to do the conventional HDip.

I cant say I disagree with the TC in regarding you as unqualified. I wouldn't expect to be regarded as qualified to do TEFL with my PGDE so why should the reverse work?

You have a wealth of qualifications but none directly relate to Secondary School Education. Teaching adults is totally different to 2nd level education. Don't take it so personally

This is all very clear, the PGDE is the government recognised entry into 2nd level education. I'm sure you will do well but there is no way to bypass it.

delta_bravo wrote: »

You have a wealth of qualifications but none directly relate to Secondary School Education. Teaching adults is totally different to 2nd level education.

My learning support diploma was directly related to my work in 2nd level and also about half of my HDip (Community Ed)

Anyway my point was I am not "unqualified" and resent the term.

carolmon wrote: »

My learning support diploma was directly related to my work in 2nd level and also about half of my HDip (Community Ed)

Anyway my point was I am not "unqualified" and resent the term.

I'm not sure why you are getting so stuck on the term. You are certainly not yet a "qualified" 2nd level teacher as you do not meet all the necessary criteria laid out by the TC and Department. Therefore the TC would classify you as unqualified.

mrboswell wrote: »

Delphi91 wrote: »

Its not just Hibernia PGDE students - I'm aware of at least two students who were subbing in schools in the year prior to their entering for a PGDE so that they could build up hours "of experience" to allow them to qualify for the entry requirements.[/QUOTE

I was talking about this today with a friend; I am a PhD student and will be looking for subbing work an hour or two and not much more, but my friend said that you can't even get subbing work without a H.Dip now. I'm not chucking €90 away on a registration fee with the Teaching Council for nothing. Is it possible to get subbing work with a Masters?

But you are not qualified according to the current bench mark of the teaching council. They call the shots whether we like it or not. Of course you can get subbing work. Schools still have the pick of the bunch, so they could easily say that the only person that they could find at short notice was the person they have to fill the job. For all we know if could be a relation etc.
Sure, schools are supposed to get qualified persons before unqualified persons, but it doesn't always wok out like that.

Anyway on that basis, why would you pay €90 to the TC if you are not a teacher?

Hi

Wondering if anyone could give me advice seeing as ASTI , the TC and Dept can't!!!! I was working as an unqualified sub in the same school for 8 years. Applied numerous times to do the dip here but couldn't get it. Eventually was accepted to do a modular PGCE which was attained last year ( July 2010). Worked last year in the same school with ten of my own hours plus some subbing. Had been registered with TC until 2008 when I let it lapse. Applied again Aug 2011 (€290 farce) and am waiting for my number. I have 2 questions.
1. Can I apply for teaching jobs with my letter of receipt from TC that I have applied for registration? According to circular I think I can?
2. How long will it take for this "magic" number to come through? (Application is complete with regards vetting, quals etc)

Any advice please , I have a pain in my a**e....

Pjfogar wrote: »

I have 2 questions.
1. Can I apply for teaching jobs with my letter of receipt from TC that I have applied for registration? According to circular I think I can?
2. How long will it take for this "magic" number to come through? (Application is complete with regards vetting, quals etc)

Of course you can apply - besides if you if a principal requires the registration, if they really want you then they will give you the benefit of the doubt. If applying just show the receipt and say "pending" on it.
How long will it take? Well with a professional organisation you would expect a quick turn around, but then again you are dealing with the Teaching Council so it could be substantially longer.

delta_bravo wrote: »

I cant say I disagree with the TC in regarding you as unqualified. I wouldn't expect to be regarded as qualified to do TEFL with my PGDE so why should the reverse work?

You have a wealth of qualifications but none directly relate to Secondary School Education. Teaching adults is totally different to 2nd level education. Don't take it so personally

This is all very clear, the PGDE is the government recognised entry into 2nd level education. I'm sure you will do well but there is no way to bypass it.

Totally agree. Carolmon, if you don't have the PGDE it doesn't matter what your other qualifications are, that is the recognised teaching qualification for secondary schools. Sure if that was the case, wouldn't it be the same as someone who qualified in veterinary trying to get a job in a hospital, isn't it all the same, vets and doctors, they administer medication, diagnose illness and perform some surgeries? Would you mind going into a hospital and finding a vet was dealing with you?

Embojitsu wrote: »

Delphi91 wrote: »

Its not just Hibernia PGDE students - I'm aware of at least two students who were subbing in schools in the year prior to their entering for a PGDE so that they could build up hours "of experience" to allow them to qualify for the entry requirements.[/QUOTE

I was talking about this today with a friend; I am a PhD student and will be looking for subbing work an hour or two and not much more, but my friend said that you can't even get subbing work without a H.Dip now. I'm not chucking €90 away on a registration fee with the Teaching Council for nothing. Is it possible to get subbing work with a Masters?

The HDip/PGDE is a teaching qualification. It doesn't matter how many masters/degrees/PhDs you hold. They only give you qualifications in a subject area, none of them qualify you to teach unless they are a teacher training qualification. You won't be able to register with the Teaching Council without your PGDE anyway.

NoelleTh wrote: »

I sent in my qualifications to be assessed (I did a PGCE in Coleraine) a month ago and I am yet to even get a letter of acknowledgement from the TC that they got my stuff, is this normal?
It's just worrying because it's a lot of important documents I know it got to them because I sent it be registered post it's silly I know but I just don't like the thoughts of my hard earned PGCE and my other qualifications just lying around some office!

To be honest, it seems to be hit and miss, dependent on what your request is. I was registering an extra subject a couple of months ago, and I sent them the documentation on a Wednesday. I checked my registration details online the following Monday, and to my surprise it had been updated, and I had my documentation back two days later. I couldn't believe the TC could be a bastion of efficiency until I witnessed it myself!

On another more contentious note, I paid my subscription back in March or April and paid it online one afternoon, I was amazed to get a letter the following morning with my TC card and certificate thing to say I was a fully paid up member for another year. Less than a 24 hour turnaround. Couldn't believe it.

I imagine registering for the first time is a more lengthy process, maybe the delay is checking your qualification from Coleraine because you didn't get it in Ireland. It could be any one of a myriad of reasons, given past form though.

Dionysus wrote: »

In fact, my objection to the TC is that they are continuing to tolerate a wide range of people who do not hold degrees in subjects to teach those subjects. They should have, long ago, given these people a timeframe within which they had to secure their degrees/the required credits in their respective subjects. That would be fair to the teachers in question, and the students. The TC didn't, and the same unqualified people are still teaching in Irish schools. Why is the TC, and more importantly the Department of Education which pays the salaries, not clamping down on these people and raising the educational standard of teachers in Irish schools? Why is this laziness being tolerated? This particular suggestion is going to piss off many of the regulars here, just as it would piss off many people in the average school staff room. So be it.

To be fair to the Teaching council on this one point, I'm sure they are receiving serious pressure from the Department not to implement this as most schools today due to the cut-backs are mixing and matching teachers with the subjects being given in the school. It would cost the government a fortune to ensure everybody who teaches say Maths (apparently approx 48% of maths teachers are not qualified to teach it) actually had a qualification in it. It's easier for them to put a Business/Science teacher in to teach it instead.

I have a few very very serious issues with the teaching council which i will just outline below instead of going into details:

1) I do not understand why they do not assess all your qualifications at the point of registration - degree, masters, prof qualifications etc. its a money making racket to get more out of you to pay for the assessment qualification

2) the teaching council changed the criteria for the number of credits required (54) for each subject from their predecessor on NO basis - they have not reassessed courses - nor have they any intention to do so - as confirmed to me by their deputy director. This means that there are degrees out there where their documentation states that you could be qualified for a certain subjects when it is simply NOT possible based on the number of credits available in the degree structure

3) when the TC assess your degree a civil servant reads through the modules and decides which ones get credits and which ones don't - not a teacher of those subjects, or even a specialist - an adminstrator. (again, confirmed to me by their deputy director)

4) their documentation is incredibly misleading - as admitted to me by their deputy director - yet, it is still up

5) the TC has not written to my alma mater university (I can't speak for any others) since their establishment to state that they are changing the criteria of their degrees.

6) Finally, the TC are (in my solicitors view) in clear breach of discrimation law - I completed my degree prior to their establishment in 2006 - someone who did the exact same degree at the exact same time would be awarded more subjects than me if they had registered with their predecessor than with the TC because the TC have unanimously changed the criteria - it's a black and white situation - you can't change the criteria of something without foundation or basis - there is none

7) I have had several meetings with the TC and they received my solicitors letter over 2 weeks ago. we have yet to receive a reply

that is all.

i have 2 missions in life.

1 - raise my children to the absolute best of my ability

2 - bring down this absolute ducking quango

Dionysus wrote: »

In fact, my objection to the TC is that they are continuing to tolerate a wide range of people who do not hold degrees in subjects to teach those subjects. They should have, long ago, given these people a timeframe within which they had to secure their degrees/the required credits in their respective subjects. That would be fair to the teachers in question, and the students. The TC didn't, and the same unqualified people are still teaching in Irish schools. Why is the TC, and more importantly the Department of Education which pays the salaries, not clamping down on these people and raising the educational standard of teachers in Irish schools? Why is this laziness being tolerated? This particular suggestion is going to piss off many of the regulars here, just as it would piss off many people in the average school staff room. So be it.

Your point shows the enormous inarguable hypocrisy of the Dept of Ed and the TC (and Teacher Unions) on the issue in principle.

Of course, in practice if the problem was tackled and the regulations were rigorously applied, it would imply the unworkable vista of having to employ far more teachers (as so many would be qualified to teach just one subject), many of whom would end up teaching far less than full hours (because they would be able to teach only the subject that they have majored in).

The Dept of Ed could not contemplate the former because they couldn't afford it, while the Teacher Unions could not contemplate the latter because it would require such a drop in teacher salaries top if it was to be even remotely financially viable.

That's why it is never highlighted in polite society at the moment at least even if it is stomach-churningly repugnant for unemployed teachers to hear of unqualified people teaching subjects for years while they themselves are practially strip-searched by the TC to prove their credentials.

It might be a battle for the future but right now when you consider the potential financial implications - notwithstanding the understandable and reasonable gripes of unemployed teachers at the chasm between the theory and practice - it is one of those 'be careful what you wish for' issues for teachers.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'm reading the paper this morning about how there's so many unqualified Maths teachers and I'm left wondering once again....why am I paying the Teaching Council?

Here I am forking out money to them having been told if I do manage to get a job, I need to be registered with the TC and to do that, I have to be qualified. But then I read about the teachers, and it's not just in Maths but all over, who are unqualified, and I'm wondering how they are working? Are they registered with the TC who have let them retain membership despite not being qualified? Or are they not registered with the TC yet still working despite the fact if I tried to work without them, I'd have a load of blocks thrown in my way?

EDIT: Something thats been pointed out to me...is it that they are registered but for other subjects?

Regardless, would it not be very easy to order schools to provide a list of their maths teachers, compare it to the qualifications lists they have and find out a real number that way?

I wouldn't get sucked in by the article to be honest. Of course there are people out there teaching maths who aren't qualified in it. Just as there are for many subjects. The Indo has no concrete statistics but seems to throw figures about like they are fact. Where did that 48% of maths teachers are unqualified come from exactly?

Questions that are never asked are 'Why do some students insist on taking OL Maths when they clearly are not capable of passing it and should do Foundation Level?' or 'What are you supposed to do with the students who only attend school a couple of days a week, so learn very little but show up to sit the exam (and fail)?' or 'What are you supposed to do about the student who turns up for school but spends most of their time disrupting class and refuses to work (and then fails)?' I accept that this is not all of the 10% of students that fail, but they do make up a portion of them. I'm fairly sure that if I went through the LC failures in my school for this year there would be a number of students who fall into those three categories.

Here's some more statistics from this years LC (available for viewing on examinations.ie)

30% of students failed Ordinary Level Classical Studies
8% failed OL French
9% failed OL Applied Maths (traditionally an optional extra subject)
10% failed OL Physics while 12% failed OL Chemistry
18% failed OL Ag Science
12% failed OL Biology
13% failed OL Construction Studies
15% failed OL Accounting
9% failed OL Home Economics


All of the above subjects are choice subjects ( I realise some schools make a science or a language compulsory at Leaving Cert level), so in theory students should be taking subjects they like, are interested in, and are good at. Those statistics would suggest otherwise. I get students in Ag Science every year who have no more interest in my subject but end up there because they don't like any of the other subjects on offer, or they've heard ag science is a doss subject, or their friends are doing so they do it too. I had four fails this year. One, I could not persuade to do OL despite my best efforts and he failed HL miserably (as I suspected he would). The three that failed OL: two had extremely poor attendance (1 day a week, sometimes 2) and the third fell into the category of 'I'm here because I had to pick a subject, don't expect me to work or anything' I did my best with them, but you cannot force them to work no matter how easy you make it to learn. Many ag science teachers would tell you a similar story.

Maths is a compulsory subject, many are not good at it and given a free choice for LC, many would drop it like a hot potato. I'm not going to get into a debate about whether students should be doing it or not, but all that the statistic of '10% of people failed OL Maths' proves is that 10% of people failed a compulsory subject in which they may have no interest or aptitude. I'm pretty sure I would fail an Art exam if tested, my dog has more artistic talent than I do, but I don't here anyone crying about the lack of creativity of our students, just their perceived lack of mathematical ability.

Maths is an important subject, no doubt about that but there are thousands of people going through the system who will never have an ability for it (just like I will never have an ability for art), who will never use for more than basic arithmetic once they leave school and they will get on fine.

Until any of the published articles can provide concrete evidence on how many teachers actively teaching maths in second level schools do not have a maths qualification AND can prove that the students of those teachers are suffering as a result of it, then I'm not going to worry about it.

That's no disrespect to teachers like yourself Teamshadowclan who is qualified and looking for work.