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Teaching Council

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    #62
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    No, thats fair enough. I'm not nessecarily saying that "Unqualified teachers are bad teachers." I appreciate many would be brilliant at their job.

    What annoys me more though is

    A. that they are saying they can't figure out how many maths teachers exactly aren't qualified. It would be very, very easy for the government to find out this number and put the media's figures to bed if they wanted. Of course, one can only presume thats because they know the numbers aren't going to be good ones.

    B. I'm having to pay 90€ for obligitory service that, by the looks of things, isn't actually doing the job it's supposed to be doing. If I'm having to pay 90€ to ensure I'm registered to teach what I'm qualified in, I'd expect the rules to apply accross the board. However, I think what I'd prefer is for someone to just say "The TC is failing in doing it's job, as is evident by the fact there are many unqualifed teachers teaching some subjects, and as such it's a joke that teachers, especially ones who are not working, have to pay this fee." I'd rather the fee be abolished; if you're not going to do the job right, then why bother at all.


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    #63
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    But (and I hate to defend them) the Teaching Council is doing it's job. They are there to check qualifications and register people as qualified teachers. It's not their job to monitor what goes on in schools. Surely if there are teachers who are not qualified in maths teaching maths questions should be raised as to why principals are timetabling these people to teach maths or Boards of Management of secondary schools/VECs are hiring people for X subject and then allowing them to teach maths when they are not qualified in it?

    I haven't read many but is the issue raised in many Whole School Evaluations where the focus is on the management of the school?

    Why are the Department/VECs not checking how teachers are allocated to subjects, there would probably be a bit of work involved, but basically if a principal had to list of his teachers who are timetabled for maths and state their TC registration number beside them it would be easy for someone to check the state of maths qualifications for active teachers of the subject.

    Of course like everything else in education, if it was acted upon it would cost a fortune as there are probably plenty of permanent teachers in the system with quite a bit of maths in their timetable but they are business and science (usually). So does the Dept allow for more qualified maths teachers to be hired but that possibly lead to schools being over quota, and possibly with some (permanent) teachers on low hours or do they just do what they usually do and ignore it figuring that it costs less to leave it the way it is?


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    #64
    Toto Wolfcastle
    Registered Users Posts: 25,005 ✭✭✭✭Toto Wolfcastle


    I was told today about an inspection where the inspector asked for proof of qualifications from the staff. One of the staff members is not qualified to teach the subject, although whether anything will be done or not is a different matter.

    Seems to be a good way of checking up on things tbh.


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    #65
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    I'm not nessecarily disagreeing with you on anything here. What you're saying is logical and makes sense.

    But if it's the TC's job to check qualifications and register people as qualified, why are we paying yearly fees? Surely that would be a one time payment to confirm our qualifications and that would be it. If that's the TC's job, why a regular subscription fee?

    Again, not disagreeing or trying to argue. Just trying to wrap my head round the subscription fee...


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    #66
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    I'm not nessecarily disagreeing with you on anything here. What you're saying is logical and makes sense.

    But if it's the TC's job to check qualifications and register people as qualified, why are we paying yearly fees? Surely that would be a one time payment to confirm our qualifications and that would be it. If that's the TC's job, why a regular subscription fee?

    Again, not disagreeing or trying to argue. Just trying to wrap my head round the subscription fee...

    Many professional bodies have an association to which they must belong in order to work in their field, e.g. The Irish Medical Council. Initial registration is €245 and annual registration fee is €490. Keeping up membership allows you to ply your trade in this country. That is what is supposed to happen with the TC. Only the Teaching Council Act still hasn't been fully enacted and schools can be a law unto themselves. You won't find (well I hope you won't find) unregistered doctors working in hospitals and practices in Ireland.

    The TC has a lot of problems associated with it. They have been well documented in this forum, but the part of the problem that is causing unemployed teachers the biggest problem (unqualified teachers) is nothing to do with the TC, it's the problem of the Dept of Education, VECs and individual schools.


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    #67
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    carolmon wrote: »
    Printer wrote: »
    I wont even begin to start to tell you about my 6 month duel with the teaching council to have my first class honours degree in International Business with French and Spanish recognised so i can teach languages.

    Anyway, turns out I now have to undertake extra credits so I can teach French (or be recognised as French teacher).

    What if you are unqualified substitute? Do you still get paid as normal for hours you do?

    They are Nazis when it comes to recognition, I'm still "unqualifed" according to them despite a Ist class HDip in Adult/ Community Ed/ Learning Support and TEFL diplomas..............
    Having graduated from four Unis I don't consider myself "unqualifed" and resent the term.

    There has to be a broader approach to what constitutes "qualified".

    It's too narrow nowadays to disregard relevant qualifications and insist on one specific qualification as being the definitive decider.
    It also gives a false perspective to people who don't understand the mysterious workings of the Teaching Council - "unqualified" is really not the correct term and does not mean that all "unqualified" teachers have not got teacher training and degrees.

    "Unrecognised" would be a better description.

    Looks like I've exhausted all routes to full recognition and will have to re apply to do the conventional HDip.
    I presume you do have a degree since you've done a h.dip in adult/community education but other than that, you're not qualified as a secondary school teacher. You are therefore unqualified for the job you're talking about. If you wanted to be a doctor I imagine you'd also be described as unqualified.

    So yes, you should go and do the H.Dip in Education if you want to be a secondary school teacher or accept that you are unqualified to be one.


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    #68
    highly1111
    Registered Users Posts: 967 ✭✭✭highly1111


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Many professional bodies have an association to which they must belong in order to work in their field, e.g. The Irish Medical Council. Initial registration is €245 and annual registration fee is €490. Keeping up membership allows you to ply your trade in this country. That is what is supposed to happen with the TC. Only the Teaching Council Act still hasn't been fully enacted and schools can be a law unto themselves. You won't find (well I hope you won't find) unregistered doctors working in hospitals and practices in Ireland.

    The TC has a lot of problems associated with it. They have been well documented in this forum, but the part of the problem that is causing unemployed teachers the biggest problem (unqualified teachers) is nothing to do with the TC, it's the problem of the Dept of Education, VECs and individual schools.


    You're absolutely right with what you say. It is up to the BOM's to ensure that they are only employing registered teachers.

    However, in terms of the registration fee doctors earn far more than teachers and i'd imagine that their registration is far more complex procedure. Also, in comparision to the equivalent of other EU countries, the annual registration fee of €90 is extortion - it's £25 in the UK. Every time i've set foot in their offices in Maynooth (very plush offices too!), there are a number of efficiencies evident - don't have time to go into them in detail now though as rushing to class!!


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    #69
    Pjfogar
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Pjfogar


    highly1111 wrote: »
    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Many professional bodies have an association to which they must belong in order to work in their field, e.g. The Irish Medical Council. Initial registration is €245 and annual registration fee is €490. Keeping up membership allows you to ply your trade in this country. That is what is supposed to happen with the TC. Only the Teaching Council Act still hasn't been fully enacted and schools can be a law unto themselves. You won't find (well I hope you won't find) unregistered doctors working in hospitals and practices in Ireland.

    The TC has a lot of problems associated with it. They have been well documented in this forum, but the part of the problem that is causing unemployed teachers the biggest problem (unqualified teachers) is nothing to do with the TC, it's the problem of the Dept of Education, VECs and individual schools.


    You're absolutely right with what you say. It is up to the BOM's to ensure that they are only employing registered teachers.

    However, in terms of the registration fee doctors earn far more than teachers and i'd imagine that their registration is far more complex procedure. Also, in comparision to the equivalent of other EU countries, the annual registration fee of €90 is extortion - it's £25 in the UK. Every time i've set foot in their offices in Maynooth (very plush offices too!), there are a number of efficiencies evident - don't have time to go into them in detail now though as rushing to class!!

    I've had enough of these c**ts. I applied for my number a month ago. Numerous phone calls / emails , in contact with politicians etc and still the same bs replies. (see website for more info etc.) I can't apply for jobs (no number) they won't tell me how long more I have to wait. Bills as high as the level of bureaucracy in the farce of an organisation. They are a shower of w*****s. Why are we letting these pen pushers hold us to ransom. Why can't they be like the GTC in England? Get your teaching qualification and are registered by return of post. Something drastic has to be done.
    PS I know at least 5 teachers (1 vp) who won't join and told me as much and are still being paid. Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh


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    #70
    Pjfogar
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Pjfogar


    Pjfogar wrote: »
    highly1111 wrote: »
    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Many professional bodies have an association to which they must belong in order to work in their field, e.g. The Irish Medical Council. Initial registration is €245 and annual registration fee is €490. Keeping up membership allows you to ply your trade in this country. That is what is supposed to happen with the TC. Only the Teaching Council Act still hasn't been fully enacted and schools can be a law unto themselves. You won't find (well I hope you won't find) unregistered doctors working in hospitals and practices in Ireland.

    The TC has a lot of problems associated with it. They have been well documented in this forum, but the part of the problem that is causing unemployed teachers the biggest problem (unqualified teachers) is nothing to do with the TC, it's the problem of the Dept of Education, VECs and individual schools.


    You're absolutely right with what you say. It is up to the BOM's to ensure that they are only employing registered teachers.

    However, in terms of the registration fee doctors earn far more than teachers and i'd imagine that their registration is far more complex procedure. Also, in comparision to the equivalent of other EU countries, the annual registration fee of €90 is extortion - it's £25 in the UK. Every time i've set foot in their offices in Maynooth (very plush offices too!), there are a number of efficiencies evident - don't have time to go into them in detail now though as rushing to class!!

    I've had enough of these c**ts. I applied for my number a month ago. Numerous phone calls / emails , in contact with politicians etc and still the same bs replies. (see website for more info etc.) I can't apply for jobs (no number) they won't tell me how long more I have to wait. Bills as high as the level of bureaucracy in the farce of an organisation. They are a shower of w*****s. Why are we letting these pen pushers hold us to ransom. Why can't they be like the GTC in England? Get your teaching qualification and are registered by return of post. Something drastic has to be done.
    PS I know at least 5 teachers (1 vp) who won't join and told me as much and are still being paid. Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh
    PPS had been working for 9 years as a sub before Sept


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    #71
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    You can apply for jobs without TC registration if the process is ongoing. Just say your number is pending.


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    #72
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Many professional bodies have an association to which they must belong in order to work in their field, e.g. The Irish Medical Council. Initial registration is €245 and annual registration fee is €490. Keeping up membership allows you to ply your trade in this country. That is what is supposed to happen with the TC. Only the Teaching Council Act still hasn't been fully enacted and schools can be a law unto themselves. You won't find (well I hope you won't find) unregistered doctors working in hospitals and practices in Ireland.

    Out of interest though, do the IMC offer anything more than the TC in terms of getting a service for your money? Cause an answer of "Well, they pay money as well, so we do to." doesn't really hold up in a longer discussion here. Why do the IMC charge an annual fee as well? What's the reason behind it? I get the initial fee, since it proves qualification, but why the yearly fee on top of that, for either orginisation?


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    #73
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    Out of interest though, do the IMC offer anything more than the TC in terms of getting a service for your money? Cause an answer of "Well, they pay money as well, so we do to." doesn't really hold up in a longer discussion here. Why do the IMC charge an annual fee as well? What's the reason behind it? I get the initial fee, since it proves qualification, but why the yearly fee on top of that, for either orginisation?

    Well, one example for the IMC would be that they conduct investigations and hearing into charges of misconduct against doctors - so I suppose yearly fees contribute to these costs.


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    #74
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    Well, one example for the IMC would be that they conduct investigations and hearing into charges of misconduct against doctors - so I suppose yearly fees contribute to these costs.
    That's why we have an inspectorate.


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    #75
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    That's why we have an inspectorate.

    I know, I was just answering Teamshadowclan's question about why the IMC might charge an annual fee.


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    #76
    Pjfogar
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Pjfogar


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    You can apply for jobs without TC registration if the process is ongoing. Just say your number is pending.

    You can apply ok but if the boss doesn't see a number your app is in the bin!!!!!!


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    #77
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    Well, one example for the IMC would be that they conduct investigations and hearing into charges of misconduct against doctors - so I suppose yearly fees contribute to these costs.

    Thats cool. That justifies their yearly charge. I had a feeling they'd so something like that. Do the TC offer similar though? Do we get to go to them/do others get to go to them if there's a problem that needs investigation?

    For the record, it's not that I'm trying to keep this going. I'm worried its coming accross as me wanting to continue picking a fight about TC but it's not. I've taken on board a lot of whats been said. Just trying to justify, to myself more than anyone, why the TC send out this bill every year to get 90€ and where the money is going.


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    #78
    Pjfogar
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Pjfogar


    Pjfogar wrote: »
    Moody_mona wrote: »
    You can apply for jobs without TC registration if the process is ongoing. Just say your number is pending.

    You can apply ok but if the boss doesn't see a number your app is in the bin!!!!!!

    1 month later and still no number!!!!!!! What are they doing? Cos one things for sure they're not answering the phone and/or queries!
    Only in Ireland


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    #79
    highly1111
    Registered Users Posts: 967 ✭✭✭highly1111


    Pjfogar wrote: »
    Pjfogar wrote: »
    Moody_mona wrote: »
    You can apply for jobs without TC registration if the process is ongoing. Just say your number is pending.

    You can apply ok but if the boss doesn't see a number your app is in the bin!!!!!!

    1 month later and still no number!!!!!!! What are they doing? Cos one things for sure they're not answering the phone and/or queries!
    Only in Ireland

    If possible, doorstep them in Maynooth.


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    #80
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Pjfogar wrote: »
    Pjfogar wrote: »
    Moody_mona wrote: »
    You can apply for jobs without TC registration if the process is ongoing. Just say your number is pending.

    You can apply ok but if the boss doesn't see a number your app is in the bin!!!!!!

    1 month later and still no number!!!!!!! What are they doing? Cos one things for sure they're not answering the phone and/or queries!
    Only in Ireland
    In their defense, they answered my email (they rang me back but I couldn't answer at the time) and then answered when called them back.


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    #81
    Pjfogar
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Pjfogar


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Pjfogar wrote: »
    Pjfogar wrote: »
    Moody_mona wrote: »
    You can apply for jobs without TC registration if the process is ongoing. Just say your number is pending.

    You can apply ok but if the boss doesn't see a number your app is in the bin!!!!!!

    1 month later and still no number!!!!!!! What are they doing? Cos one things for sure they're not answering the phone and/or queries!
    Only in Ireland
    In their defense, they answered my email (they rang me back but I couldn't answer at the time) and then answered when called them back.
    Eventually got through to " someone ". Was told number wont be through till Christmas!!!!!!!!! " We have to go through our process "....... That's grand I replied , the bank will probably be starting their own process by then..... To which "someone" replied "That's not in our remit".......
    If it wasn't so serious I would have burst out laughing. Politicians (non government or FF) on the case now. Are these people for real?
    And yet the Dept are still paying non registered teachers. Duplicity.......


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    #82
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Actually, now that I think of it, I think they didn't answer until I went for the Gaeilge option. Perhaps more of those complaining should learn some of their own language. ;)


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    #83
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Quick questions about the whole "You've got to work a certain number of hours after getting your qualification" malarky.

    I got 4 hours in a school last week, covering 6 classes. At the end of the day, I was asked if I wanted a photocopy of my timetable for the day and I said no, not thinking there was a need. Then I realised, hours later, that I may have needed that to prove the hours I had worked. So do the TC keep track of the hours you have worked, based on the payslips or anything like that? I know the school asked for my TC number so does the info go from the school to the TC? Or was I supposed to keep a record of it myself?

    Also, and I think I know the answer but I'll ask anyway, I have now worked three days in a special needs school, with students who were technically 1st-3rd years. But it wasn't a typical secondary school. There wasn't set class times; it was just a matter of school running from 9-3 and had more of a primary school set up. Would these hours count towards my total? I'd imagine not but thought I'd ask :)

    EDIT: Also, how many hours are actually required for the thing and over how few years?

    Thanks all :D


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    #84
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    You're supposed to get 300 hours in three years. The TC have increased the primary one to five years and you can send in extenuating circumstances or whatever so my concern wouldnt be the three years. It's called PQE for post qualification experience if you want to look up the TC website for more info.

    You should have kept the timetable, but you could just make your own, you need the principal(s) to sign off on the hours at the end so some record would be necessary. The TC will not look for the photocopy but it'll let the principal add up how many hours you did there.


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    #85
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Just be glad they have done away with the previous rule that "only weeks where 18 or more hours were taught may be counted".

    So you would have to kiss goodbye to your 3 hours - or even your 13 hours!


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    #86
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Question - at the moment, I'm out on final year TP on a B.Ed course (PE), is it possible for me to register with the TC as I know that HDip students must be registered with the TC to be paid for substitution work (VEC school)


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    #87
    mrboswell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    I suspect not. You have to be a qualified teacher (degree and dip) to register so if you are still in college you will get paid at the unqualified rate.


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    #88
    MiseEireannach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭MiseEireannach


    Bill published yeaterday (jan 12 2012) by Ruari Quinn which will pave the way for section 30 of Teaching Council act which is supposed to make TC membership mandatory for payment.

    http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/LatestNews/Title,21481,en.php

    How long do bills like this take to become legislation? When does one need to register for TC?


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    #89
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,398 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    MiseEireannach wrote: »
    When does one need to register for TC?

    Either 2006 or when you started teaching if after that.
    I don't have any pity for people who chanced their arm and will find it difficult to get joined up quickly because we all knew this day was coming.

    Bit like ignoring the household charge, the Govt will make their way anyways


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    #90
    Flashgordon197
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭Flashgordon197


    They have abolished the teaching council in the Uk. We need a body to vet teachers and deal with serious professional misconduct but we dont need a full time body with 10 million in the bank as our teaching council does. I have a thread on the code of professional conduct. All teachers should look at it(the Code) and comment. Its terribly prescriptive. All teachers should know that every educational problem is your fault. (Im being sarcastic!) under this code. No context-just fault.


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    #91
    raytray
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭raytray


    They haven't abolished the GTC in the Uk. It is still here. And if they do abolish it is being replaced.


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