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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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Comments

  • #152
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Aldebaran wrote: »
    Riiight, but if KeithAFC's attitudes exterminated my ancestors then how am I still here?
    What? :confused:


  • #153
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Min wrote: »
    If I go to confession it is done under Canon law, I don't want the state getting involved in how a religion operates, that is what the Chinese communist does, though we have people from the Labour party who in the past were open communist lovers.
    Min wrote: »
    In state care over the past 10 years over 200 children have died, the state then takes this moral high ground.

    Is the state above the law, will the media hold the state to account?

    The state is in no position to tell the church how a church sacrament is enacted, we hear people talking about separation of church and state then they want the state interfering in a sacrament that the state has no right to interfere with.
    You sicken me you really do. Inspite of all you still apologise and make excuses for The RCC and make tired little references to China and Communism everytime people suggest that respect for superstition and fantasy and fairy tale should not be granted when it leads to the detriment of others.

    The State is NOW in a position to tell the Church what to do now that our Police and politicians are no longer the forelock tugging cap twisting mumbling type we have had in the past. The type the RCC loved.

    The State is answerable as we elect them. The RCC will remain unanswerable so long as cap twisters such as yourself defend them.


  • #154
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    prinz wrote: »
    What about the adult man who came forward about being abused as a child but refused to go ahead with going on the record and cooperating with a prosecution? Lock him up?

    That's to do with psychological issues he has. If someone stepped in with a confession from the abuser and said it on his behalf then the offender would be prosecuted.


  • #155
    wild_cat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What? :confused:


    Some one was hatin on you earlier in the thread.


  • #156
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    prinz wrote: »
    Does that include people who were abused themselves but didn't come forward?
    Victims of the abuse (and I would include the abused's parents as "victims" in some cases) are first-person to the act committed.

    Priests are 3rd-party observers. That puts them in a whole different category when it comes to their obligations because they legally have no personal stake in the crime and their primary action should be to protect the victims and society.

    I see the point that you're trying to make, but unless an abused person is aware of other incidents which have taken place, in which they were not involved, then you cannot claim that they have done anything wrong to anyone else. They have wronged themselves, but cannot be held liable for future crimes of their abuser.

    A 3rd-party observer who is aware of an incident but fails to report it, has wronged the victim by protecting their abuser. They can't be held liable for future crimes of an abuser either, but where a pattern of abuses exists, you can say that they have wronged society in general by failing to report any of them.


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  • #157
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    It clear cut for me.

    If your a religion believing in invisible things, your an ideology of the mind, if your a state, your a body consisting of buildings and physical people living in them – and where they rest and be, that land is applicable to laws of the land and constitution – if you like it or not!
    …And Rome does not like this realistic principle – so it conveniently ignores it.
    If they can't be made call to order - they should be kicked the fcuk out!


  • #158
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    It seems to me that you're trying to paint the victims as being almost equally guilty to the priests who tried to cover it up. thats a pretty shameful view to have tbh.
    No, he's just trying to demonstrate how fallible an absolute law is without discretion (like the one in my post he quoted).


  • #159
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Given that he was probably traumatized by what happened i wouldn't blame him. Coming forward and speaking about what happened is very difficult for victims..

    So you are agreeing with me then that making statements like 'anyone who knew about abuse going on and did nothing should face x punishment' is not exactly helpful?
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    I would agree that parents who know should face some kind of punishment...

    Do you think there will be a report into that any time soon?
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    It seems to me that you're trying to paint the victims as being almost equally guilty to the priests who tried to cover it up. thats a pretty shameful view to have tbh.

    Pretty broad paintbrush you've got yourself there.


  • #160
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    MitchKoobski wrote: »
    "You believe in God? **** THAT SHÍT!! Get out of my country! Yeah I'm so mature."

    Where did the poster say anything about believing in God ?

    You can believe in God without being part of the catholic church.

    The worst part of this is that part of the catholic belief is that the pope is God's representative on Earth.

    If he is, given his letters to bishops telling them to STFU about the abuse, then I don't want to go to heaven or have anything to do with God.

    My hope, however, is that he is an individual who was acting in the church's interests and is not a representative of God, and therefore God is still worth following/believing in.

    So as the poster said the catholic church should be kicked out, but people like myself who believe (actually, it's probably a hope rather than a belief) in God would not be affected or kicked out.


  • #161
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What? :confused:

    Some tool was attacking you despite your absence from the thread, he has since been banned.


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  • #162
    Show Time
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Show Time


    How any right thinking modern person can be taken in by all this religious claptrap is beyond me.


  • #163
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Italia wrote: »
    CrAp!
    I'm in no way minimising therole played by the clergy involved (which should be hounded out of existence), but half the problem was that the Irish STATE knew and did nothing.
    Now they're trying to take the moral high ground? Spare me.
    The Irish State WAS the Church in all but name, such was their grip on the country and its people and from reading some posters around here (Hi MIn!) they would like it that way still.


  • #164
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    mloc wrote: »
    Canon "law" is simply the regulations of a private organisation. They should of course, under every circumstance, be accountable to the law of the state.

    Religions, just like any other organisation that has members, should be fully accountable to the law and not given preferential treatment; all private organisations such be treated equally, whether they are large like the Catholic church or small like a local photography club.

    The state has a right to, indeed a duty to, interfere with how a religion operates if it is operating outside the limits of the law.

    But it is not operating outside the law.

    If I go to confession I go knowing what I say is in private and cannot be discussed, the priest is just the man in the middle between my God and myself, I do not want the state being a party to my confession.
    If I say I stole €10 I would be telling it knowing the priest cannot run to the Gardai to tell them (I don't steal, for the record).

    I still cannot believe how naive some are in believing a child abuser tells a priest he or she abuses children iwhen they go to tell the priest their sins in confession.

    I am a Catholic and it is not like a local photography club, it is where I interact with like minded believers with a God whom we believe in. It is a human right to have freedom of religion.

    I don't appreciate the state thinking it can interfere, it stands over organisations that has lead to over 200 children dying and then thinks it knows how to protect children.

    In all these reports the HSE and Gardai have failed too but apparently the state now wants to hear everyone's private confession when it has no right to.
    The state would be better off putting in the measure so the HSE and Gardai stopped failing the victims, whether victims of clerical abuse or the victims of the state.
    It is ridiculous that the government are doing this to deflect from the state's own failings.


  • #165
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Biggins wrote: »
    It clear cut for me.

    If your a religion believing in invisible things, your an ideology of the mind, if your a state, your a body consisting of buildings and physical people living in them – and where they rest and be, that land is applicable to laws of the land and constitution – if you like it or not!
    …And Rome does not like this realistic principle – so it conveniently ignores it.
    If they can't be made call to order - they should be kicked the fcuk out!
    Perhaps the tide might be turning on Rome now.

    I don't think any religious church should have the power that they have. That includes Islam etc.


  • #166
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    prinz wrote: »
    So you are agreeing with me then that making statements like 'anyone who knew about abuse going on and did nothing should face x punishment' is not exactly helpful?

    I never made that comment but i agree with what you're saying. People who were in a position of responsibility suhc as the bishops, other priests aware of abuse or the authorities who knew what was going on but did northing or even worse attempted to cover it up should be held accountable.


    Do you think there will be a report into that any time soon?

    Unfortunately probably not. And i have read accounts of parents who accepted money to not make a complaint to the Gardaí about abuse who deserve to be prosecuted.


  • #167
    Turpentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Turpentine


    Yahew wrote: »
    Keith is from an Ulster Unionist background. His attacks on the Catholic Church "controlling the West" are not in-group attacks, and are of the form of bigotry and papist bashing which Paisley and the DUP used to engage in publicly, and probably now engage in privately. The kind of bigotry which led to a bigoted Northern State. So I merely pointed out that for people of Irish Catholic descent to agree with him should make you quesy. If it doesn't there are book stores and history books can be found therein.

    Last post on this topic.

    Hold on.

    You are saying that making those with knowledge of a habitual child abuser inform the authorities is a betrayal of our ancestors?

    Really? Seriously?

    Your posts would therefore seem to display very little regard for your ancestors.

    Just because someone may disagree with Keith on 99% of things doesn't give you an excuse to try and use that to dismiss the 1% they agree with.


  • #168
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Min wrote: »
    I am a Catholic and it is not like a local photography club
    From an objective point of view, it is no different. It is a group of people who congregate freely on a regular basis for a particular purpose.
    I don't appreciate the state thinking it can interfere, it stands over organisations that has lead to over 200 children dying and then thinks it knows how to protect children.
    The state isn't trying to interfere in how the Church runs itself. It's simply drawing up guidelines for the protection of children, which the church may find itself falling foul of because of its internal rules.
    It's not interfering in anyone's right to believe or have religion.


  • #169
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Min wrote: »
    But it is not operating outside the law.
    If it tells priests not to go to the authorities when they're aware of such crimes it is in conflict with Irish Law.
    If I go to confession I go knowing what I say is in private and cannot be discussed, the priest is just the man in the middle between my God and myself, I do not want the state being a party to my confession.
    If I say I stole €10 I would be telling it knowing the priest cannot run to the Gardai to tell them (I don't steal, for the record).
    They'll most likely be afforded the same rights as doctors. They will only be allowed to report cases that put children in danger or if they're ordered to do so by a court mandate.
    I still cannot believe how naive some are in believing a child abuser tells a priest he or she abuses children iwhen they go to tell the priest their sins in confession.
    If they don't then what's the issue?
    It is a human right to have freedom of religion.
    It is not a human right to hide heinous crimes.
    I don't appreciate the state thinking it can interfere, it stands over organisations that has lead to over 200 children dying and then thinks it knows how to protect children.
    You're failing to see the difference between incompetent actions and immoral ones.
    In all these reports the HSE and Gardai have failed too but apparently the state now wants to hear everyone's private confession when it has no right to.
    No, it doesn't.
    The state would be better off putting in the measure so the HSE and Gardai stopped failing the victims, whether victims of clerical abuse or the victims of the state.
    It is ridiculous that the government are doing this to deflect from the state's own failings.
    It's not, it's doing it to protect children.


  • #170
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    Rabidlamb wrote: »
    The Indo was reporting there may be a risk to the proposed Popes visit next year.
    Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.

    Would anyone go to see him if he did? Or will people find their faith for a few days and flock in their hundreds of thousands to a mass in the park, for example!!!!!


  • #171
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    The Irish State WAS the Church in all but name, such was their grip on the country and its people and from reading some posters around here (Hi MIn!) they would like it that way still.

    I never said I would like it that. I have mentioned the hypocrisy of the people here who are always anti-church and give out about the church getting involved in issues.
    Yet they now seem to be happy with their double standard approach that it is great to have the state interfering in religion.

    I believe religion has a right to give opinion on issues that affect the people, not to the extent that it is making the law.
    Here we have the state wanting to get involved in how a religion operates, this is a very serious and dangerous development, this is what happens in China and people there are not free - Catholics there for example have to recognise the Chinese government as the head of the religion even though they are like some here in government - atheists.
    I don't like the communist lovers in government getting involved.


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  • #172
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    The pope and his "friends" should be brought to justice for his dastardly crimes on humanity, more specifically young children.


  • #173
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Min wrote: »


    I am a Catholic and it is not like a local photography club, it is where I interact with like minded believers with a God whom we believe in. It is a human right to have freedom of religion.

    Well insofar as photography exists and photography clubs generally don't have a track record of running pedophile rings it is quite different to catholicism


  • #174
    mackg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »
    No because you work for a profitable company not a religious organisation. Why do you even care, Oh yeah I know because getting at the church in anyway possible is the cool thing to do at the moment.

    Wow what an argument, "you think your cool but your not" lol. If you want to have a disscussion I'm more than open to it. Come back to me when you have regained your composure.


  • #175
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Min wrote: »
    I never said I would like it that. I have mentioned the hypocrisy of the people here who are always anti-church and give out about the church getting involved in issues.
    Yet they now seem to be happy with their double standard approach that it is great to have the state interfering in religion.

    I believe religion has a right to give opinion on issues that affect the people, not to the extent that it is making the law.
    Here we have the state wanting to get involved in how a religion operates, this is a very serious and dangerous development, this is what happens in China and people there are not free - Catholics there for example have to recognise the Chinese government as the head of the religion even though they are like some here in government - atheists.
    I don't like the communist lovers in government getting involved.
    I dont like people who believe in talking snakes and dead folk coming back to life being involved in Govt.
    But let me get this straight.
    All atheists are Commies?
    or
    Non Catholics are Commies?
    Communism = Not believing in fantasy horse sh1t?


    Explain....


  • #176
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Min wrote: »
    Here we have the state wanting to get involved in how a religion operates, this is a very serious and dangerous development
    So if the church, for example, felt any reports of children being raped should be buried you'd protest any government involvement in bringing those the church protects to justice?

    Also, if you can't support a point without making comparisons to China it's probably not a point worth making.


  • #177
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    COYW wrote: »
    Would anyone go to see him if he did? Or will people find their faith for a few days and flock in their hundreds of thousands to a mass in the park, for example!!!!!

    I would absolutely love if he turned up and 100,000 (or even 1,000,000) people turned up and turned their back on him in the park.

    Unfortunately some people will ignore his crimes and welcome him as if he actually represented God.

    Do they still read out papal letters at some masses ?

    If so, they should read out the one in which he told the clergy to STFU about kiddy-fiddlers.


  • #178
    Rabidlamb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Rabidlamb


    COYW wrote: »
    Would anyone go to see him if he did? Or will people find their faith for a few days and flock in their hundreds of thousands to a mass in the park, for example!!!!!

    He got a good showing in the UK recently, he'd probably do alright.
    Nowhere near the millions JPII got back in '79 though.
    The old biddies would be delighted for a few days thinking this magic will stick but mass would still be half empty next Sunday.


  • #179
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Unfortunately some people will ignore his crimes and welcome him as if he actually represented God.
    The strange thing is that he directly opposed a biblical commandment in preventing the government from bringing the abusers to justice,

    "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." - Romans 13:1-2


  • #180
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Liam Byrne wrote: »

    kiddy-fiddlers.

    Please don't trivialise what is one of the most heinous and evil crimes that mankind can commit. I know for a fact that victims find that term particularly offensive. Call it what it is.


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  • #181
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    Its a matter of rights I suppose.
    People have the right to believe in an Uber Being and his undead son and a holy ghost and their awesome powers.
    They can believe that this awesome power flows down to earth into Priests and into dark little rooms in churches from Termonfeckin to Belmullet. There is no question of this right.
    People are also free to believe that their starsign effects their personality. This influence on personality cannot be used to excuse acts of criminality no matter that the believer thinks.
    The same applies to the Confession box i.e your beliefs count for F all cos they are basically biollox in the greater scheme of things.


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