Catholic Church claims it is above the law

thegreengoblin

From today's Irish Times. Proof, if ever it was needed, that these people have nothing but utter contempt and disrespect for the Irish people. One can only imagine what victims of church sexual abuse would feel upon reading the comments of PJ Madden of the Association of Catholic Priests. Hopefully the Cloyne report will finish the Church off once and for all.


By PAUL CULLEN and DEAGLÁN de BREADÚN

The Catholic Church and the State are on a collision course over Government plans to force priests to disclose information on child sexual abuse obtained in the confessional.
The measure, announced in response to the findings of a report on the handling of child abuse complaints in the diocese of Cloyne, is likely to encounter significant resistance within the church.

Under the plans put forward by Minister for Justice Alan Shatter, priests could be jailed for up to five years for failing to disclose information on serious offences against a child even if this was obtained in Confession.

The fallout from the Cloyne report continued yesterday, with the Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore sharply criticising the Vatican for undermining the Irish bishops’ child protection rules.

“The law of the land should not be stopped by a crozier or by a collar,” Mr Kenny said, while Fine Gael chairman Charlie Flanagan and the Socialist Party called for the expulsion of the Vatican’s representative in Ireland, the papal nuncio Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza.

Asked for his reaction to the criticisms, the Vatican’s senior spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi declined to comment, saying only: “I have nothing to say until such time as there is a formal Vatican response.”

Church spokesmen said yesterday they wanted to see the text of Mr Shatter’s Bill before making a definitive comment. However, auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Armagh Dr Gerard Clifford said the bond of secrecy attached to Confession had to be respected.

A priest would “recommend” anyone admitting to a serious crime in Confession to go to the civil authorities.

A spokesman for the Catholic bishops said the “seal of Confession places an onerous responsibility on the confessor/priest, and a breach of it would be a serious offence to the rights of penitents”. He pointed approvingly to remarks made yesterday by Fr PJ Madden of the Association of Catholic Priests, who said the seal of the Confession was above the law of the land.

Fr Madden said the seal was “above and beyond all else” and could not be broken even if a penitent confessed to a crime.

Dr Clifford said former Bishop of Cloyne John Magee, whose whereabouts are unknown, should make himself available to answer questions about the report.

Minister for Children Frances Fitzgerald is due to publish guidance on child protection rules today, along with a HSE plan to implement the rules consistently across the State.

A decision on whether to hold further inquiries into the handling of abuse complaints in other dioceses will be made in the autumn.

Mr Shatter is awaiting the results of two audits of church compliance with child protection procedures, one being carried out by the HSE, the other by the church’s National Board for Safeguarding Children.

The bishops’ spokesman said they would co-operate fully with the civil authorities. The Cloyne report is to be considered by the bishops at their next meeting in September.

The Dáil is set to hold a 2½-hour discussion of it on Wednesday.

Mr Kenny hinted that the Government could close the Irish Embassy to the Holy See in the wake of the report. Asked if the Government might close the Embassy given that it already has an Embassy in Italy, Mr Kenny said the Minister for Foreign Affairs had “adjustments” to make to Irish diplomatic representation.

“I’m quite sure that he will take into account the straitened circumstances of the country and make his decision known to the Government in due course about what adjustments he wishes to make.”

Mr Gilmore told the papal nuncio he wanted a response from the Vatican as to why it had told priests and bishops they could undermine rules laid down by the Irish bishops

orourkeda

Looky here.

A church thread

thegreengoblin

orourkeda wrote: »

Looky here.

A church thread

Oh it's a lot more than just a 'church' thread

KeithAFC

The pope will always deny and cover up and defend the priests from Rome and Romes rule on the western world.

It just gets worse and worse for them.

Zebra3

The Catholic Church is an organisation that has overseen the rape and torture of Irish children.

Any other organisation to have done so would have been declared illegal and had its assets seized. :mad:

jimthemental

KeithAFC wrote: »

The pope will always deny and cover up and defend the priests from Rome and Romes rule on the western world.

It just gets worse and worse for them.

First time I've ever found myself in agreement with you.

MagicSean

I think Enda was a bit over-excited when he said anyone with knowledge will be prosecutable and the confessional will also be included. It won't happen.

CatFromHue

the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
there are man other areas where the catholic church should be doing better in relating to child abuse. looking to get the rules of confessions changed will create a huge different argument away from what can and should be done.

Dravokivich

Hmmm the Catholic Church isn't above the law, they have it tightly wrapped up here.

mackg

Hope Enda sticks to his guns here, there is a special place for the catholic church in Ireland: In the witness box helping to put paeodophiles behind bars. If they refuse this and you keep going to mass and dropping money in the plate you need to take a long hard look at yourself.

Tipsy McSwagger

Bless me father for I have sinned, I have molested some kids.
Me too snaaaaaaaapppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fratton Fred

If you are aware of a child being abused and you fail to report it, you should be tried for aiding and abetting child abuse, end of.

The law should be very clear, it should apply to every individual equally and there should be no ambiguity in what action a person is obliged to take. Simples.

jimthemental

CatFromHue wrote: »

the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
there are man other areas where the catholic church should be doing better in relating to child abuse. looking to get the rules of confessions changed will create a huge different argument away from what can and should be done.

Still it is withholding information. These are very serious crimes we are talking about here not someone dipping their hand in the collection plate.

Fratton Fred

Kind of handy for Enda this as well.

He needs to save a few bob and closing the embassy in the Vatican will help.

sbsquarepants

CatFromHue wrote: »

the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
there are man other areas where the catholic church should be doing better in relating to child abuse. looking to get the rules of confessions changed will create a huge different argument away from what can and should be done.

The "rules" are made up by a consistently self serving and corrupt organisation. They are subject to the laws of the land just like googles' or facebooks' or any other world wide multi billion business that operates here. Just cos the ceo wears a funny frock and claims to talk to god doesn't make any difference. If Zuckerberg suddenly turned tranny and claimed to speak to Jesus, he wouldn't be legally entitled to cover up rapes and murders, why should anyone else?

bnt

Totally pointless discussion, if you ask me. Why? Because it won't change anything. What are the possible outcomes?

1. Confessional remains private. Crimes confessed there are not reported. Justice is not served.
2. Confessional no longer private. Crimes confessed there are reported. People stop confessing to crimes in confessionals. Justice is not served.

The problem, as I see it, is this assumption that people go in to a confessional and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. How is that conceptually different from blurting something out to your friends at the pub after ten pints? The fact that someone says something is not proof that a crime has been committed: a judge or jury makes a decision based on the evidence, not just on something you said.

Seachmall

CatFromHue wrote: »

the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.

They were given a legal exemption to reporting crimes however they have abused this right to no end. Anyone else would be done for being an accomplice after the fact, even psychiatrists and doctors have to report such serious cases.

bnt wrote:

The problem, as I see it, is this assumption that people go in to a confessional and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. How is that conceptually different from blurting something out to your friends at the pub after ten pints? The fact that someone says something is not proof that a crime has been committed: a judge or jury makes a decision based on the evidence, not just on something you said.

It's not proof that a crime has been committed but it definitely warrants a look into it. A lot of these cases could have been prevented if just one priest came forward.

wild_cat

The Catholic church will take years upon years to die out here. Especially when you have stupid people getting children christened for the sake of a piss up. Which I see a lot back home.... How can you be catholic if you go against so many teachings of the church? They don't have a clue.

Co - Habitian.
Pre - marital sex.
Child born out of wedlock.
etc etc


Enda better stick to his words. First off get the papal nuncio the feck out of here. Show them we mean business. Those priests claim Irish nationality and live in the Irish Republic so they best start living by the laws of the land.


Rurari Quinn isn't blinded by faith so he will have no problem in taking assets from the ones that don't pay up. I'd like to ask all Catholics.. How can you justify your faith when the men your god put on this earth to represent him do this kind of thing.

seamus

CatFromHue wrote: »

the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.

The confessional has always been a tool of control and intimidation on the part of the church.

Despite their God being all-knowing and all-forgiving, the only way to get absolution through that God is to confess to a priest, rather than, you know, to God. For some reason it only becomes "real" when it's said to priest. Otherwise you might only be pretending to confess and tricking an omnipotent being into forgiving you.

The intention of confession is that the clergy are privy to all goings-on within the community and know everyone's dirty little secrets. This makes the priest the kind of guy you don't fnck with.

There is no good reason to afford the confessional any special protection under law. You may as well make it OK for anyone to withhold information on crimes so long as they were told the information in confidence.

wild_cat

Seachmall wrote: »

They were given a legal exemption to reporting crimes however they have abused this right to no end. Anyone else would be done for being an accomplice after the fact, even psychiatrists and doctors have to report such serious cases.

Scientists showing more moral high ground once again.

Aldebaran

If a person comes to you and confesses to abusing a child, and you do nothing about it, you are just as responsible as the abuser if they go on to abuse again. This should be very simple for an organisation that claims they are some sort of moral authority.

mloc

It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

Madness.

mloc

It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

Madness.

mloc

It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

Madness.

mloc

It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

Madness.

CatFromHue

jimthemental wrote: »

Still it is withholding information. These are very serious crimes we are talking about here not someone dipping their hand in the collection plate.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The "rules" are made up by a consistently self serving and corrupt organisation. They are subject to the laws of the land just like googles' or facebooks' or any other world wide multi billion business that operates here. Just cos the ceo wears a funny frock and claims to talk to god doesn't make any difference. If Zuckerberg suddenly turned tranny and claimed to speak to Jesus, he wouldn't be legally entitled to cover up rapes and murders, why should anyone else?

the catholic church breaking their vows on confession has about the same chance of happening as the pope making an announcement tomorrow that you know that god fella, well we made him up!

it isn't going to happen.

by even mentioning it we've already strayed away from the areas that the church should be working on relating to child protection.

Pherekydes

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..."

wild_cat

mloc wrote: »

It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.
.

Do you think this has got something to do with the catholic thing about once you confessed your sin you're absolved?

Like as God is above man then his absolution is all that matters?

mackg

wild_cat wrote: »

The Catholic church will take years upon years to die out here. Especially when you have stupid people getting children christened for the sake of a piss up. Which I see a lot back home.... How can you be catholic if you go against so many teachings of the church? They don't have a clue.

Co - Habitian.
Pre - marital sex.
Child born out of wedlock.
etc etc


Enda better stick to his words. First off get the papal nuncio the feck out of here. Show them we mean business. Those priests claim Irish nationality and live in the Irish Republic so they best start living by the laws of the land.


Rurari Quinn isn't blinded by faith so he will have no problem in taking assets from the ones that don't pay up. I'd like to ask all Catholics.. How can you justify your faith when the men your god put on this earth to represent him do this kind of thing.

Trying to explain this to people. "you have to get a child christened sure thats how you name the child". No you name the child by putting their name on a birth cert.

Seachmall

CatFromHue wrote: »

the catholic church breaking their vows on confession has about the same chance of happening as the pope making an announcement tomorrow that you know that god fella, well we made him up!

Then those who are known to have been aware of the abuse should serve time in prison, priest or no priest.

humanji

I'd have thought God would forgive them for doing what is morally right.

kildare.17hmr

bnt wrote: »

Totally pointless discussion, if you ask me. Why? Because it won't change anything. What are the possible outcomes?

1. Confessional remains private. Crimes confessed there are not reported. Justice is not served.
2. Confessional no longer private. Crimes confessed there are reported. People stop confessing to crimes in confessionals. Justice is not served.

The problem, as I see it, is this assumption that people go in to a confessional and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. How is that conceptually different from blurting something out to your friends at the pub after ten pints? The fact that someone says something is not proof that a crime has been committed: a judge or jury makes a decision based on the evidence, not just on something you said.

of course it will change things it will hold people responsible for what they have done for one. It all starts with someone speaking out then up to the gards to find the evidence so you think they should not be givin the chance to find evidence?

I dispise the church and everything it stands for and i don't see a place for it in modern society

wild_cat

mackg wrote: »

Trying to explain this to people. "you have to get a child christened sure thats how you name the child". No you name the child by putting their name on a birth cert.

I feel like crying.

Irish Slaves for Europe

mackg wrote: »

Hope Enda sticks to his guns here, there is a special place for the catholic church in Ireland: In the witness box helping to put paeodophiles behind bars. If they refuse this and you keep going to mass and dropping money in the plate you need to take a long hard look at yourself.

The catholic church throughout this whole affair has made it clear they will defend and protect paeodophiles at all costs. They have no morals or values, they are evil to the core. What they do going forward is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, it will only be a cynical PR tactic if they do start to co-operate with the investigations taking place. Anyone who continues to give money to the church is only supporting their actions. I can't work out why the government doesn't just seize their assets to provide appropriate compensation to the victims. If they need to introduce retrospective legislation then do so.

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Kind of handy for Enda this as well.

He needs to save a few bob and closing the embassy in the Vatican will help.

There would also be a vacant prime property up in The Park if he kicks out the Papal "Noncio".

seamus

CatFromHue wrote: »

by even mentioning it we've already strayed away from the areas that the church should be working on relating to child protection.

In reality the church has very little work to do in relation to child protection. It's mostly in the State's hands to take all institutions out of the church's hands, or to arrange full audits of church-run instutions, insisting that all staff working there are subject to the full training requirements and security clearance processes as would be required by any other organisation.

Our main issue is that the church was just allowed to run with these institutions, unaccounted for, for so long.

If you remove the robes and collars from any of the various reports, the first question we should be asking is, "Why aren't all of the people named here being arrested for their failure to disclose this material information?".

That's a state failure. If the church wishes to operate contrary to the laws of the land, that's fine, but the state should be nailing them to the cross every time they do.

We're all fully aware that the church lives in an alternate reality. I don't see any reason to get bogged down in their internal stuff and ask them to change. Force them to change by slaughtering them for doing wrong to society.

wild_cat

Things like this make me be ashamed to be Irish. The BF said last night they should be burned at the stake like they did to the pagans.

problemchimp

We need to break all ties between government and Vatican and treat them like a rogue state. If people want to practise their Catholic faith well they have the right to do so, just like I go to GAA matches.

Pherekydes

ejmaztec wrote: »

There would also be a vacant prime property up in The Park if he kicks out the Papal "Noncio".

Wouldn't that be still the property of the Vatican?

jimthemental

wild_cat wrote: »

The Catholic church will take years upon years to die out here. Especially when you have stupid people getting children christened for the sake of a piss up.

mackg wrote: »

Trying to explain this to people. "you have to get a child christened sure thats how you name the child". No you name the child by putting their name on a birth cert.

I can understand where you are coming from here as I would have a fairly similar opinion but indoctrination and faith in the Catholic or any other religion is not the issue here.

The issue is that a vast number of people had knowledge of children being treated in an inhuman way and they feel that because they came clean to one person and squared it with the church that they should not face trial and their victims should not have justice.

MitchKoobski

While they do need to prosecute people for witholding information when it comes to child abuse, as atheist as I am, I don't agree with making it illegal to withhold information given in confessionals.

That's just trampling all over someones religion. Why would they go to confession knowing anything they said could be passed on? They'll just stop going. I'm all for catching the bastards and locking them away, but making one of the core practices of the religion illegal will just turn many irish people against how theyre handling it.

I'd compare confession to doctor/patient confidentiality. If someone says something to their psychiatrist, are you then gonna put the psychiatrist in prison for not passing something on?

wild_cat

jimthemental wrote: »

I can understand where you are coming from here as I would have a fairly similar opinion but indoctrination and faith in the Catholic or any other religion is not the issue here.

The issue is that a vast number of people had knowledge of children being treated in an inhuman way and they feel that because they came clean to one person and squared it with the church that they should not face trial and their victims should not have justice.

And the congregation should show that they will not stand for this. Which the majority are not.

theteal

Anybody want to fill out the census form properly now?

By the time it comes around again this will all be a dull memory to most.




Are they still paying fook all compensation leaving us to foot the majority of the bill?

wild_cat

MitchKoobski wrote: »

I'd compare confession to doctor/patient confidentiality. If someone says something to their psychiatrist, are you then gonna put the psychiatrist in prison for not passing something on?

Yes. They have to report it. If you admit a crime you have they have to report it.

Even if you mention that you were abused if that person is still living you have to divulge who they were.

jimthemental

MitchKoobski wrote: »

I'd compare confession to doctor/patient confidentiality. If someone says something to their psychiatrist, are you then gonna put the psychiatrist in prison for not passing something on?

Definitely. We are talking about predatory sex offenders here. It should be their duty as member of the human race to report a dangerous mind like this. It's just like an engineer should not sign off on a dodgy bridge.

Seachmall

MitchKoobski wrote: »

While they do need to prosecute people for witholding information when it comes to child abuse, as atheist as I am, I don't agree with making it illegal to withhold information given in confessionals.

That's just trampling all over someones religion. Why would they go to confession knowing anything they said could be passed on? They'll just stop going. I'm all for catching the bastards and locking them away, but making one of the core practices of the religion illegal will just turn many irish people against how theyre handling it.

I'd compare confession to doctor/patient confidentiality. If someone says something to their psychiatrist, are you then gonna put the psychiatrist in prison for not passing something on?

Yes, doctors have a legal obligation to report crimes involving children. The church should have the same. It's not trampling over their religion because you are not preventing them from getting absolution from God, you're just ensuring justice is served in this world regardless if it's served in the next or not.

Doctors also have to abide by court mandates in disclosing information.

MitchKoobski

wild_cat wrote: »

Yes. They have to report it. If you admit a crime you have they have to report it.

Even if you mention that you were abused if that person is still living you have to divulge who they were.

I agree with doctors passing information on when its taken on a case by case basis, given the serious nature of many crimes.

But say for example someone over 18 goes to their psych to talk about how they were abused. They don't reveal who abused them. Is their doctor then going to report them for withholding information? The idea that your doctor should be forcing you to reveal who it was worries me. And if the doctor doesnt force you to reveal it, are they then going to be prosecuted for not pursuing it for more information?

Yahew

Seachmall wrote: »

Yes, doctors have a legal obligation to report crimes involving children. The church should have the same. It's not trampling over their religion because you are not preventing them from getting absolution from God, you're just ensuring justice is served in this world regardless if it's served in the next or not.

Lawyers dont have an obligation to pass on information.

In any case the State should demand that serious crimes be reported, the Church can refuse; however the individual priests should be arrested if it can be proven that the alleged perp turned up and confessed that actual crime ( something I imagine which would be quite difficult) and the priest should go to prison for his beliefs if he continues to withhold. If there are any laws which allow priests to legally withhold, remove them, however the Catholic Church can continue to protect the privacy of the confessional, if it chooses, at a cost to itself.

Do any of the modern anti-Catholic atheists get a bit queasy when agreeing with an utter bigot like KeithAFC? You should: his attitudes pretty much exterminated your ancestors.

mod: poster banned.

prinz

Seachmall wrote: »

Yes, doctors have a legal obligation to report crimes involving children. The church should have the same. It's not trampling over their religion because you are not preventing them from getting absolution from God, you're just ensuring justice is served in this world regardless if it's served in the next or not.

Interesting. I wonder when the report into the GP's mentioned as being informed of child abuse in the Cloyne Report will be made public. What about parents if parents are aware of abuse and don't come forward to be put them in prison?

I'm all for penalising the crime of omission when it comes to child abuse. As long as it applies to everyone.

Seachmall

MitchKoobski wrote: »

I agree with doctors passing information on when its taken on a case by case basis, given the serious nature of many crimes.

But say for example someone over 18 goes to their psych to talk about how they were abused. They don't reveal who abused them. Is their doctor then going to report them for withholding information? The idea that your doctor should be forcing you to reveal who it was worries me. And if the doctor doesnt force you to reveal it, are they then going to be prosecuted for not pursuing it for more information?

It depends, if the doctor is led to believe the abuser may still be abusing children he would have to report it.

In any case involving the welfare of a child, the child’s best interests are paramount. This may require disclosure of some content of the medical record – or details from it – to a social worker and/or the gardai. As a matter of good practice, you should always explain to the parents that you have a duty to refer your concerns to non-medical professionals and, where possible, obtain their consent to disclosure, except in rare circumstances, where to do so would put the child at increased risk.

The public interest justification for disclosure usually turns on the threat of serious harm to others. Section 8 of the Data Protection Act lists a number of exceptions to the rules applying to data processing. This includes information held in a personal record that is “required for the purpose of preventing, detecting or investigating offences or prosecuting offenders” or “to prevent injury or other damage to the health of a person or serious loss of or damage to property”.

- Confidentiality of Records

Yahew wrote:

Lawyers dont have an obligation to pass on information.

Lawyers are there to represent individuals and thus are exempt as individuals have a right not to self-incriminate.

prinz wrote:

I'm all for penalising the crime of omission when it comes to child abuse. As long as it applies to everyone.

I completely agree, anyone who allows child abuse to continue is guilty of a crime and should be punished.

SirenX

I'd compare confession to doctor/patient confidentiality. If someone says something to their psychiatrist, are you then gonna put the psychiatrist in prison for not passing something on?

are u serious???
we are talking about hild molesters and rapists, not theives. that was the most ridiculous comment made so far in this thread