Catholic Church claims it is above the law

Yahew · 15-07-2011 11:19AM

Seachmall wrote: »

Why should it make us sick? Regardless of his background his opinion on this matter is the opinion of many people in this country and for good reason.

Stop addressing the man's background and address his points if you're so offended by them.

That the Catholic Church pretty much controls the Western world? I thought I'd just dismiss it as an aside.

smash · 15-07-2011 11:19AM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I think Enda was a bit over-excited when he said anyone with knowledge will be prosecutable and the confessional will also be included.

CatFromHue wrote: »

the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.

Come off it, we're talking about cover ups for serious crimes here. Just because you're a priest or a catholic doesn't mean you should get away with it. If you have knowledge of something like this then common sense should step above your fkn beliefs in god. You know, be good to others.... releasing vital information regarding rape, murder etc will no doubt save lives.

If they don't comply with the law they should be locked up, end of.

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 11:23AM

Yahew wrote: »

That the Catholic Church pretty much controls the Western world? I thought I'd just dismiss it as an aside.

And then decided to attack other's points because they happened to coincide with Keith's without actually addressing them?

Clever.

15-07-2011 11:24AM

At this point I'd usually step in with the usual "we don't need another pro vs anti religion hamsterwheel thread going round and round etc etc..."

Not this time.

Am I going to close the door to the Church in my life completely? No. I actully think there's something to this whole "love thy neighbour as thyself" malarky.

But I am not going to return to sermons until Emporor Popeltine goes the way if the dodo and I see who replaces him.

Militant atheists, go give 'em both barrels.

mackg · 15-07-2011 11:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

At this point I'd usually step in with the usual "we don't need another pro vs anti religion hamsterwheel thread going round and round etc etc..."

Not this time.

Am I going to close the door to the Church in my life completely? No. I actully think there's something to this whole "love thy neighbour as thyself" malarky.

But I am not going to return to sermons until Emporor Popeltine goes the way if the dodo and I see who replaces him.

Militant atheists, go give 'em both barrels.

Religeon doesn't have a monopoly on loving others.

Laika1986 · 15-07-2011 11:37AM

The church will try to make a big deal out of the issue of breaking the rules of confession to drive attention away from the key issue here. It's Ireland's chance to get this monkey off our back once and for all

Biggins · 15-07-2011 11:39AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Kind of handy for Enda this as well.

He needs to save a few bob and closing the embassy in the Vatican will help.

It won't save that much in the long run but it will point out that your either a religion or a state - not bloody both!
...And while the Irish government is at it - look again at their complete tax-free status!
Some adjustment is need there too!
...Or is the money, the Church in Ireland yet again, think what its earns, is solely untouchable too!
Its one law for this nation and another for this religious mafia!

Thy use the law when convenient - to get their way - and when it don't work their way... A' hell, they can ignore it 'cos it don't apply to them!

If this was any other org'/cult/business, etc - the Irish government would have told the said body years ago to obey Irish law (if they didn't, they would/should be closed down) - but no, the state cowered to corrupt Rome.

Italia · 15-07-2011 11:41AM

I cannot believe the level of ignorance and sheer dumbness of some of the comments posted here.

Whether you are catholic or not, believer or atheist:
- although not 100% identical, the seal of confession does not only apply to the Catholic Church but also to the Lutheran and Anglican Churches ... yes, them too...
- According to Roman Catholic Canon law, "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason." (983 §1)
Priests may not reveal what they have learned during confession to anyone, even under the threat of their own death or that of others. For a priest to break confidentiality would lead to a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication.

Enda and the boys can posture as much as they like. Priests will not break the seal of confession. It will never happen. The Germans and the Fascists couldn't make it happen in 39-45, you really think Enda will? Get real.
Talks of closing embassies and banning / throwing/expelling people or the Catholic church is just that - talk. Never going to happen.

Having said the above, I abhor any form of sexual abuse on kids and I will kill any person, without any remorse or hesitation, who'd do it to mine.

In the event of a person confessing such a sin (and I seriously doubt that there'd be many of those scumbags) in a confessional, any priest (or other clergy) should actively encourage the perpetrator to go to the authorities. This is allowed in Canon law and should not be discouraged or blocked by church leaders (of whatever faith).
BTW - not all clergy are bad / evil. The vast majority do sterling work without ever being acknowledged for it.

seamus · 15-07-2011 11:45AM

Italia wrote: »

Enda and the boys can posture as much as they like. Priests will not break the seal of confession.

Then they should be arrested and tried for doing so where their silence prolongs a victims' suffering or puts more people at risk.

Canon law is the law of the Vatican. A foreign state. It does not take priority over Irish law, and all priests should be made aware of that.

If adhering to canon law is so important to them, then maybe they should go live in the state where canon law applies.

bnt · 15-07-2011 11:46AM

I still think this flap about the confessional is a diversion that doesn't address the underlying problems. People need to speak out before it gets to that point. Like Italia above, I don't expect anything to happen to change the sanctity of the confessional. I think it's a bogus sanctity, but those who confess to serious crimes in there - or hear such confessions - obviously don't share my opinion.

Priests have gone before the firing squad rather than violate it, so why this notion that priests would do so to comply with a mere secular law? They believe they're above all that. That belief is not grounded in reality, but neither are any other religious beliefs anyway, so no change there. :rolleyes:

I wonder how much of the current flap has to do with Mr. Shatter's religion? We have a Justice Minister who's absolutely, definitely not in the Catholic Church's pocket, for one simple reason: he's Jewish. I'm surprised that no-one's tried to use this against him, claiming he's not objective. (As if he would be more objective if he was Catholic, eh?) This opinion piece in the Independent ends on a slightly ominous note:

The Roman Catholic Church has been ridding itself of troublesome politicians like Mr Shatter for a couple of millennia.

If anything happens to him, we'll know where to start asking questions ...

smash · 15-07-2011 11:47AM

Italia wrote: »

- According to Roman Catholic Canon law, "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason." (983 §1)

Priests may not reveal what they have learned during confession to anyone, even under the threat of their own death or that of others. For a priest to break confidentiality would lead to a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication.

'God' forbid they should try and sale lives... :rolleyes:

Who gives a sh!t about Roman Catholic Canon law... it's not the law, it's not a legal obligation, where withholding information is.

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 11:47AM

Italia wrote: »

I cannot believe the level of ignorance and sheer dumbness of some of the comments posted here.

Whether you are catholic or not, believer or atheist:
- although not 100% identical, the seal of confession does not only apply to the Catholic Church but also to the Lutheran and Anglican Churches ... yes, them too...
- According to Roman Catholic Canon law, "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason." (983 §1)
Priests may not reveal what they have learned during confession to anyone, even under the threat of their own death or that of others. For a priest to break confidentiality would lead to a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication.

I don't give 2 ****s what Canon law states, this is a democratic country where the people decide the laws and those who violate them, regardless of their reasoning, are subject to prosecution. Canon Law means nothing in the eyes of the state.

Doctor, Priest or Layman, if you allow the abuse of children to continue you are in violation of the law and should serve time in prison.

Irish Slaves for Europe · 15-07-2011 11:48AM

Shenshen wrote: »

If you made it obligatory for lawyers to pass on information, you essentially waive people's right to legal defense in court.

If someone confesses they committed a crime to a lawyer, then why should they have a right to defense? A simple solution is for lawyers to record all their conversations with clients, and obviously let the client know they are making the recording. The lawyer should also make it clear to the client that if they confesses to the crime then the lawyer will have a legal obligation to report it to the police and to hand in the tape with the confession as evidence.

mackg · 15-07-2011 11:48AM

Biggins wrote: »

It won't save that much in the long run but it will point out that your either a religion or a state - not bloody both!
...And while the Irish government is at it - look again at their complete tax-free status!
Some adjustment is need there too!
...Or is the money the Church in Ireland think yet again, think what its earns, is solely untouchable too!
Its one law for this nation and another for this religious mafia!

I never knew they are 100% tax free:eek:

I cannot believe the level of ignorance and sheer dumbness of some of the comments posted here.

Whether you are catholic or not, believer or atheist:
- although not 100% identical, the seal of confession does not only apply to the Catholic Church but also to the Lutheran and Anglican Churches ... yes, them too...
- According to Roman Catholic Canon law, "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason." (983 §1)
Priests may not reveal what they have learned during confession to anyone, even under the threat of their own death or that of others. For a priest to break confidentiality would lead to a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication.

Enda and the boys can posture as much as they like. Priests will not break the seal of confession. It will never happen. The Germans and the Fascists couldn't make it happen in 39-45, you really think Enda will? Get real.
Talks of closing embassies and banning / throwing/expelling people or the Catholic church is just that - talk. Never going to happen.

Having said the above, I abhor any form of sexual abuse on kids and I will kill any person, without any remorse or hesitation, who'd do it to mine.

In the event of a person confessing such a sin (and I seriously doubt that there'd be many of those scumbags) in a confessional, any priest (or other clergy) should actively encourage the perpetrator to go to the authorities. This is allowed in Canon law and should not be discouraged or blocked by church leaders (of whatever faith).
BTW - not all clergy are bad / evil. The vast majority do sterling work without ever being acknowledged for it.

There is a very big difference between protecting innocent people from the nazis and protecting paeodophiles from prosecution.

It has been said over in this thread that what is under attack is the position of the catholic church as an organisation not individual members of the clergy.

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 11:51AM

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

If someone confesses they committed a crime to a lawyer, then why should they have a right to defense? A simple solution is for lawyers to record all their conversations with clients, and obviously let the client know they are making the recording. The lawyer should also make it clear to the client that if they confesses to the crime then the lawyer will have a legal obligation to report it to the police and to hand in the tape with the confession as evidence.

Because we are considered innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time and so a confession alone will not prove anything.

Lawyers are exempt for many reasons, none of which are relevant in this instance.

Min · 15-07-2011 11:52AM

In state care over the past 10 years over 200 children have died, the state then takes this moral high ground.

Is the state above the law, will the media hold the state to account?

The state is in no position to tell the church how a church sacrament is enacted, we hear people talking about separation of church and state then they want the state interfering in a sacrament that the state has no right to interfere with.

dvpower · 15-07-2011 11:53AM

Italia wrote: »

- According to Roman Catholic Canon law, "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason." (983 §1)

That is canon law, not the law of this state.
The Vatican should make it clear to it's members that it's laws don't apply outside its own jurisdiction.

Italia · 15-07-2011 11:54AM

seamus wrote: »

Then they should be arrested and tried for doing so where their silence prolongs a victims' suffering or puts more people at risk.

That might / will happen if you can prove that the confession actually took place in the first instance. (hint: PROVE)

Canon law is the law of the Vatican. A foreign state. It does not take priority over Irish law, and all priests should be made aware of that.

Believe me - they are well aware. Makes absolutely NO difference.

smash · 15-07-2011 11:54AM

If a priest is one of the good guys, they'll agree to the law and state that if they get excommunicated then so be it. The ones who don't agree have something to hide and should be investigated! Simple as that. The Vatican won't take the chance on excommunicating thousands of priests, they're already having trouble with numbers.

MitchKoobski · 15-07-2011 11:55AM

The more I think about it now, my opinion has changed.

Fuck Canon Law, everyone should be answerable to the law in pursuit of child molesters and rapists, religious beliefs be damned.

Italia · 15-07-2011 11:55AM

I suggest you take more time to research what Canon law is and how it applies before making nonsensical statements

dvpower wrote: »

That is canon law, not the law of this state.
The Vatican should make it clear to it's members that it's laws don't apply outside its own jurisdiction.

15-07-2011 11:55AM

Biggins wrote: »

It won't save that much in the long run but it will point out that your either a religion or a state - not bloody both!
...And while the Irish government is at it - look again at their complete tax-free status!
Some adjustment is need there too!
...Or is the money the Church in Ireland think yet again, think what its earns, is solely untouchable too!
Its one law for this nation and another for this religious mafia!

mackg wrote: »

I never knew they are 100% tax free:eek:

Of course they should be tax free, their money comes from donations from people who have already paid well enough tax, do you really think people giving their donation to the church want the government getting a cut.

Seachmall · 15-07-2011 11:56AM

Min wrote: »

In state care over the past 10 years over 200 children have died, the state then takes this moral high ground.

Is the state above the law, will the media hold the state to account?

The state is in no position to tell the church how a church sacrament is enacted, we hear people talking about separation of church and state then they want the state interfering in a sacrament that the state has no right to interfere with.

If the sacrament is held in the Irish State then the Irish State, as governed by the people, has every right to interfere with it. By knowingly allowing child abusers to operate they are putting Irish Society in danger and we have every right to pull the reins on how they go about their business.

Those children died out of incompetence and in no way justifies, or is even comparable, to the actions of the church in dealing with child abuse.

Min · 15-07-2011 11:56AM

dvpower wrote: »

That is canon law, not the law of this state.
The Vatican should make it clear to it's members that it's laws don't apply outside its own jurisdiction.

If I go to confession it is done under Canon law, I don't want the state getting involved in how a religion operates, that is what the Chinese communist does, though we have people from the Labour party who in the past were open communist lovers.

Dyr · 15-07-2011 11:57AM

mackg wrote: »

I never knew they are 100% tax free:eek:

It's a sweet gig alright, the oul' religion

bleg · 15-07-2011 11:58AM

How can a priest even morally justify keeping this sort of information secret?

wild_cat · 15-07-2011 11:58AM

mackg wrote: »

It has been said over in this thread that what is under attack is the position of the catholic church as an organisation not individual members of the clergy.

I'm 100% a nob end atheist type. But there are some very good priests out there. My mother was telling me recently that one of the local parishes took out a huge loan in the early nineties big money at the time like 120,000 pound or something. The priest that undertook the load died recently. The parish always looked amazing and all the money given at mass went back into the community etc. When they looked at the bank accounts and his books after he died the loan had been repaid in full and he'd left them 250,000 euro to play around with. He also spoke out about the child abuse.

Our old parish priest used to go into the local shop every Christmas and pay every single debt on the credit book belong to the congregation. This was years and years ago where people used store credit because they actually had no money. This fellow probably knew about the child abuse.

My friend a lesbian came out to a young priest. He talked away to her and told her god would accept her for who she was. He even gave her a lend of his Tori Amos CD collection.... he also commented that he'd never hide a pedophile.

smash · 15-07-2011 11:59AM

Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »

Of course they should be tax free, their money comes from donations from people who have already paid well enough tax, do you really think people giving their donation to the church want the government getting a cut.

The church pays it's priests, as a company pays it's employees. They should be subject to company tax!

dvpower · 15-07-2011 12:00PM

Italia wrote: »

That might / will happen if you can prove that the confession actually took place in the first instance. (hint: PROVE)

There may well be a case where an abuser is caught and admits that he disclosed his crimes to a priest in the confessional. The priest might not admit this (because of the seal), but also may not lie about it.

Then we have one person giving evidence that they told a priest a reportable offence and the priest offering no defense. Open and shut case.

Italia · 15-07-2011 12:00PM

CrAp!
I'm in no way minimising therole played by the clergy involved (which should be hounded out of existence), but half the problem was that the Irish STATE knew and did nothing.
Now they're trying to take the moral high ground? Spare me.

Seachmall wrote: »

If the sacrament is held in the Irish State then the Irish State, as governed by the people, has every right to interfere with it. By knowingly allowing child abusers to operate they are putting Irish Society in danger and we have every right to pull the reins on how they go about their business.

Those children died out of incompetence and in no way justifies, or is even comparable, to the actions of the church in dealing with child abuse.

Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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