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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

12357…48

Comments

  • #122
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    theteal wrote: »
    Anybody want to fill out the census form properly now?

    By the time it comes around again this will all be a dull memory to most.

    So right. A la carte Catholicism is ripe in Ireland and Irish people become very "Catholic" when it suits them, for example :

    - Christening, confirmation, weddings etc. I was recently told that it was tradition to get married in a Catholic church, by a 26 year old lad that I work with. He hadn't been to mass since he was 14, yet couldn't understand me querying his desire for the church wedding. To be fair, most of his colleagues felt the same.

    - when they see an Orange march. This is my particular favourite and obviously very topical at the moment. The sight of an Orange march really brings out the a la Carte Catholics and they become very religiously minded and take great offence to what the marchers are doing.

    - and as you said, when the Census comes around, they just have to tick that RC box.


  • #123
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Italia wrote: »
    I suggest you take more time to research what Canon law is and how it applies before making nonsensical statements

    It isn't a law in this state at all. It has no effect whatsoever. It has the status akin to the rules of a golf club.


  • #124
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    steve06 wrote: »
    The church pays it's priests, as a company pays it's employees. They should be subject to company tax!

    No they shouldn't the church is a religious organisation not a company.


  • #125
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Seachmall wrote: »
    If the sacrament is held in the Irish State then the Irish State, as governed by the people, has every right to interfere with it. By knowingly allowing child abusers to operate they are putting Irish Society in danger and we have every right to pull the reins on how they go about their business.

    Those children died out of incompetence and in no way justifies, or is even comparable, to the actions of the church in dealing with child abuse.

    Do people really think child abusers confess it in the confession box? No they don't and anyone who believes that is naive.

    If someone who is abused tells a priest in confession, then the priest should simply advise them to tell the police or if they are a child to tell their parents and make it clear that needs to be done.

    Confession in other countries is given the privacy that the current government wants to remove.


  • #126
    mackg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »
    Of course they should be tax free, their money comes from donations from people who have already paid well enough tax, do you really think people giving their donation to the church want the government getting a cut.

    I work for a huge corporation who pays massive sums in tax, does that mean I should be exempt. Essentially they are being employed by their congregation, through the form of donations.


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  • #127
    mloc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    Min wrote: »
    If I go to confession it is done under Canon law, I don't want the state getting involved in how a religion operates, that is what the Chinese communist does, though we have people from the Labour party who in the past were open communist lovers.

    Canon "law" is simply the regulations of a private organisation. They should of course, under every circumstance, be accountable to the law of the state.

    Religions, just like any other organisation that has members, should be fully accountable to the law and not given preferential treatment; all private organisations such be treated equally, whether they are large like the Catholic church or small like a local photography club.

    The state has a right to, indeed a duty to, interfere with how a religion operates if it is operating outside the limits of the law.


  • #128
    Italia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 454 ✭✭Italia


    Again - do some research....Google is your friend.
    No one said it was a law of the state.
    dvpower wrote: »
    It isn't a law in this state at all. It has no effect whatsoever. It has the status akin to the rules of a golf club.


  • #129
    who the fug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Unless they bug every confessional, I can’t see how they are going to convict a priest on the word of a convicted paedophile.

    No point in having a law you can’t enforce.

    Is it not an offence already to help a criminal avoid justice , could they not just enforce that law.


    The church needs to change and change quickly if it wants to survive, wonder how much the PR contract is going for


  • #130
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Italia wrote: »
    CrAp!
    I'm in no way minimising therole played by the clergy involved (which should be hounded out of existence), but half the problem was that the Irish STATE knew and did nothing.
    Now they're trying to take the moral high ground? Spare me.

    Did you take the time to read the Cloyne report - the major findings being the continuing failure of the church to report offences?
    It is exactly this failure to report to the state authorities that has led to this debate in the first place.


  • #131
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Seriously though, how ****ed up is a priests conscience if they think it's OK to keep things like this under wraps?


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  • #132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mackg wrote: »
    I work for a huge corporation who pays massive sums in tax, does that mean I should be exempt. Essentially they are being employed by their congregation, through the form of donations.

    No because you work for a profitable company not a religious organisation. Why do you even care, Oh yeah I know because getting at the church in anyway possible is the cool thing to do at the moment.


  • #133
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,196 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »
    No they shouldn't the church is a religious organisation

    Actions speak louder than words.

    The papist organisation has proven it is not a religious organisation.

    It has been proven to be a front for torture, rape, and money laundering.


  • #134
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    COYW wrote: »
    - when they see an Orange march. This is my particular favourite and obviously very topical at the moment. The sight of an Orange march really brings out the a la Carte Catholics and they become very religiously minded and take great offence to what the marchers are doing.

    Disliking a bigoted organization isnt always an indication "a la Carte Catholicism" as you call it. Some people just don't like seeing bigotry.


  • #135
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    seamus wrote: »
    Then they should be arrested and tried for doing so where their silence prolongs a victims' suffering or puts more people at risk..
    Seachmall wrote: »
    Doctor, Priest or Layman, if you allow the abuse of children to continue you are in violation of the law and should serve time in prison.

    Does that include people who were abused themselves but didn't come forward? Does it include the GP's mentioned in the Cloyne Report that some people informed about abuse? Does it inlcude the mother in the Cloyne Report who was aware that not one, but two of her daughters had inappropriate contact with a priest and said/did nothig about it at the time?.... because these people rarely if ever get mentioned.


  • #136
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Italia wrote: »
    Again - do some research....Google is your friend.
    No one said it was a law of the state.

    Now your getting there. It has no standing.
    Clergy may need to either obey the laws of the land or the rules of an organisation. Pretty simple really - I can't see what the fuss is all about.


  • #137
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Min wrote: »
    that is what the Chinese communist does, though we have people from the Labour party who in the past were open communist lovers.


    oh noes, the commies are coming :eek:

    Hopefully the reformed stickys in the labour party are still church haters...we might get some mileage outta them yet :pac:


  • #138
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,196 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Bambi wrote: »
    All that said, we generally approve of journalists protecting their sources from the law, and most journos are scummers. :pac:

    I have no problem with people exposing corruption and wrong doing.

    Proper legislation for the protection of whistle blowers is needed though I do admit to having no knowledge of how it would work.


  • #139
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Italia wrote: »
    CrAp!
    I'm in no way minimising therole played by the clergy involved (which should be hounded out of existence), but half the problem was that the Irish STATE knew and did nothing.
    Now they're trying to take the moral high ground? Spare me.

    Exactly, the KNEW nothing. The Irish state ****ed up, but that doesn't excuse the actions of the Church who COVERED up these crimes. The state has the moral highground because it didn't act immorally, it didn't act at all because of it's incompetence.
    Min wrote:
    Do people really think child abusers confess it in the confession box? No they don't and anyone who believes that is naive.

    If someone who is abused tells a priest in confession, then the priest should simply advise them to tell the police or if they are a child to tell their parents and make it clear that needs to be done.

    Confession in other countries is given the privacy that the current government wants to remove.
    The point is if a priest is told someone is abusing a child during confession he should be legally obligated to inform the authorities.

    Protecting children is infinitely more important than protecting the right of an abuser to feel cleared of all sin without punishment.


  • #140
    Irish Slaves for Europe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 235 ✭✭Irish Slaves for Europe


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Because we are considered innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time and so a confession alone will not prove anything.

    If someone confesses to a lawyer when they know the conversation is being recorded and will be used as evidence if they do confess, then in most cases that would mean the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.


  • #141
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »
    Of course they should be tax free, their money comes from donations from people who have already paid well enough tax, do you really think people giving their donation to the church want the government getting a cut.
    If I give someone unrelated to me a sum of money, income tax is liable on that sum.
    Why should a church be any different?

    Charitable organisations are exempt in general, but the chuch entity is not a charitable organisation, notwithstanding the various charities it runs under its name.


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  • #142
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    prinz wrote: »
    Does that include people who were abused themselves but didn't come forward? Does it include the GP's mentioned in the Cloyne Report that some people informed about abuse? Does it inlcude the mother in the Cloyne Report who was aware that not one, but two of her daughters had inappropriate contact with a priest and said/did nothig about it at the time?.... because these people rarely if ever get mentioned.

    Thats a pretty stupid comment in fairness. Especially the part about the abused who didnt come forward. Being abused is very psychologically damaging for the victims and when its children they might not even understand what is happening. Expecting them to come forward straight away is completly unrealistic.


  • #143
    mloc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    I'm not quite sure what this whole "it is was the states fault" argument is about.

    If the state was involved, is the fact that they are guilty somehow absolve the guilt of the church? Is it a "sure the state were at it, why should they be allowed go after the church" sort of situation?

    Mind you, we are talking about people who eat a piece of bread which is actually a man which is actually an all-powerful god. If you can handle that kind of nonsense, I'd imagine handling the circuitous doublethinking required to somehow reduce the guilt of the clergy isn't all that tricky.


  • #144
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    COYW wrote: »
    - when they see an Orange march. This is my particular favourite and obviously very topical at the moment. The sight of an Orange march really brings out the a la Carte Catholics and they become very religiously minded and take great offence to what the marchers are doing.

    It's more to do with history than religion to be honest.
    Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »
    No because you work for a profitable company not a religious organisation.
    You think the catholic church isn't profitable? In essence the Vatican City is it's own country and percentages of the local donations go there so in reality it's just like a free bailout they get. They should be subject to tax!


  • #145
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,196 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Disliking a bigoted organization isnt always an indication "a la Carte Catholicism" as you call it. Some people just don't like seeing bigotry.

    True, but a lot of people only "become catholic" at the sight of an OO march or some other "proddy" event.


  • #146
    Rabidlamb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Rabidlamb


    The Indo was reporting there may be a risk to the proposed Popes visit next year.
    Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.


  • #147
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »
    If someone confesses to a lawyer when they know the conversation is being recorded and will be used as evidence if they do confess, then in most cases that would mean the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

    Not at all, people confess in recorded interviews with police for crimes they haven't committed.

    To be proven beyond reasonable doubt requires objective evidence.


  • #148
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Thats a pretty stupid comment in fairness. Especially the part about the abused who didnt come forward. Being abused is very psychologically damaging for the victims and when its children they might not even understand what is happening. Expecting them to come forward straight away is completly unrealistic.

    What about the adult man who came forward about being abused as a child but refused to go ahead with going on the record and cooperating with a prosecution? Lock him up?

    Is it stupid to question the role of a parent who realises that their children could be being abused and does nothing about it?


  • #149
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Rabidlamb wrote: »
    The Indo was reporting there may be a risk to the proposed Popes visit next year.
    Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.

    Has his panzer broken down?


  • #150
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    prinz wrote: »
    Does that include people who were abused themselves but didn't come forward?
    I can't see how that would be helpful - let's keep in mind the reasons for mandatory reporting.
    prinz wrote: »
    Does it include the GP's mentioned in the Cloyne Report that some people informed about abuse?
    GPs and medical professionals in general, yes.
    prinz wrote: »
    Does it inlcude the mother in the Cloyne Report who was aware that not one, but two of her daughters had inappropriate contact with a priest and said/did nothig about it at the time?.... because these people rarely if ever get mentioned.
    Yes. If a parent stands idly by while their child is being abused, they share culpability.


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  • #151
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    prinz wrote: »
    What about the adult man who came forward about being abused as a child but refused to go ahead with going on the record and cooperating with a prosecution? Lock him up?

    Is it stupid to question the role of a parent who realises that their children could be being abused and does nothing about it?

    Given that he was probably traumatized by what happened i wouldn't blame him. Coming forward and speaking about what happened is very difficult for victims.

    I would agree that parents who know should face some kind of punishment.

    It seems to me that you're trying to paint the victims as being almost equally guilty to the priests who tried to cover it up. thats a pretty shameful view to have tbh.


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