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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

  • 15-07-2011 09:48AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭


    From today's Irish Times. Proof, if ever it was needed, that these people have nothing but utter contempt and disrespect for the Irish people. One can only imagine what victims of church sexual abuse would feel upon reading the comments of PJ Madden of the Association of Catholic Priests. Hopefully the Cloyne report will finish the Church off once and for all.


    By PAUL CULLEN and DEAGLÁN de BREADÚN

    The Catholic Church and the State are on a collision course over Government plans to force priests to disclose information on child sexual abuse obtained in the confessional.
    The measure, announced in response to the findings of a report on the handling of child abuse complaints in the diocese of Cloyne, is likely to encounter significant resistance within the church.

    Under the plans put forward by Minister for Justice Alan Shatter, priests could be jailed for up to five years for failing to disclose information on serious offences against a child even if this was obtained in Confession.

    The fallout from the Cloyne report continued yesterday, with the Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore sharply criticising the Vatican for undermining the Irish bishops’ child protection rules.

    “The law of the land should not be stopped by a crozier or by a collar,” Mr Kenny said, while Fine Gael chairman Charlie Flanagan and the Socialist Party called for the expulsion of the Vatican’s representative in Ireland, the papal nuncio Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza.

    Asked for his reaction to the criticisms, the Vatican’s senior spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi declined to comment, saying only: “I have nothing to say until such time as there is a formal Vatican response.”

    Church spokesmen said yesterday they wanted to see the text of Mr Shatter’s Bill before making a definitive comment. However, auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Armagh Dr Gerard Clifford said the bond of secrecy attached to Confession had to be respected.

    A priest would “recommend” anyone admitting to a serious crime in Confession to go to the civil authorities.

    A spokesman for the Catholic bishops said the “seal of Confession places an onerous responsibility on the confessor/priest, and a breach of it would be a serious offence to the rights of penitents”. He pointed approvingly to remarks made yesterday by Fr PJ Madden of the Association of Catholic Priests, who said the seal of the Confession was above the law of the land.

    Fr Madden said the seal was “above and beyond all else” and could not be broken even if a penitent confessed to a crime.

    Dr Clifford said former Bishop of Cloyne John Magee, whose whereabouts are unknown, should make himself available to answer questions about the report.

    Minister for Children Frances Fitzgerald is due to publish guidance on child protection rules today, along with a HSE plan to implement the rules consistently across the State.

    A decision on whether to hold further inquiries into the handling of abuse complaints in other dioceses will be made in the autumn.

    Mr Shatter is awaiting the results of two audits of church compliance with child protection procedures, one being carried out by the HSE, the other by the church’s National Board for Safeguarding Children.

    The bishops’ spokesman said they would co-operate fully with the civil authorities. The Cloyne report is to be considered by the bishops at their next meeting in September.

    The Dáil is set to hold a 2½-hour discussion of it on Wednesday.

    Mr Kenny hinted that the Government could close the Irish Embassy to the Holy See in the wake of the report. Asked if the Government might close the Embassy given that it already has an Embassy in Italy, Mr Kenny said the Minister for Foreign Affairs had “adjustments” to make to Irish diplomatic representation.

    “I’m quite sure that he will take into account the straitened circumstances of the country and make his decision known to the Government in due course about what adjustments he wishes to make.”

    Mr Gilmore told the papal nuncio he wanted a response from the Vatican as to why it had told priests and bishops they could undermine rules laid down by the Irish bishops


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Looky here.

    A church thread


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭thegreengoblin


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Looky here.

    A church thread

    Oh it's a lot more than just a 'church' thread


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    The pope will always deny and cover up and defend the priests from Rome and Romes rule on the western world.

    It just gets worse and worse for them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The Catholic Church is an organisation that has overseen the rape and torture of Irish children.

    Any other organisation to have done so would have been declared illegal and had its assets seized. :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭jimthemental


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The pope will always deny and cover up and defend the priests from Rome and Romes rule on the western world.

    It just gets worse and worse for them.

    First time I've ever found myself in agreement with you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    I think Enda was a bit over-excited when he said anyone with knowledge will be prosecutable and the confessional will also be included. It won't happen.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
    there are man other areas where the catholic church should be doing better in relating to child abuse. looking to get the rules of confessions changed will create a huge different argument away from what can and should be done.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,366 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Hmmm the Catholic Church isn't above the law, they have it tightly wrapped up here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    Hope Enda sticks to his guns here, there is a special place for the catholic church in Ireland: In the witness box helping to put paeodophiles behind bars. If they refuse this and you keep going to mass and dropping money in the plate you need to take a long hard look at yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,072 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    Bless me father for I have sinned, I have molested some kids.
    Me too snaaaaaaaapppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    If you are aware of a child being abused and you fail to report it, you should be tried for aiding and abetting child abuse, end of.

    The law should be very clear, it should apply to every individual equally and there should be no ambiguity in what action a person is obliged to take. Simples.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭jimthemental


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
    there are man other areas where the catholic church should be doing better in relating to child abuse. looking to get the rules of confessions changed will create a huge different argument away from what can and should be done.

    Still it is withholding information. These are very serious crimes we are talking about here not someone dipping their hand in the collection plate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Kind of handy for Enda this as well.

    He needs to save a few bob and closing the embassy in the Vatican will help.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
    there are man other areas where the catholic church should be doing better in relating to child abuse. looking to get the rules of confessions changed will create a huge different argument away from what can and should be done.

    The "rules" are made up by a consistently self serving and corrupt organisation. They are subject to the laws of the land just like googles' or facebooks' or any other world wide multi billion business that operates here. Just cos the ceo wears a funny frock and claims to talk to god doesn't make any difference. If Zuckerberg suddenly turned tranny and claimed to speak to Jesus, he wouldn't be legally entitled to cover up rapes and murders, why should anyone else?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,171 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Totally pointless discussion, if you ask me. Why? Because it won't change anything. What are the possible outcomes?
    1. Confessional remains private. Crimes confessed there are not reported. Justice is not served.
    2. Confessional no longer private. Crimes confessed there are reported. People stop confessing to crimes in confessionals. Justice is not served.
    The problem, as I see it, is this assumption that people go in to a confessional and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. How is that conceptually different from blurting something out to your friends at the pub after ten pints? The fact that someone says something is not proof that a crime has been committed: a judge or jury makes a decision based on the evidence, not just on something you said.

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
    They were given a legal exemption to reporting crimes however they have abused this right to no end. Anyone else would be done for being an accomplice after the fact, even psychiatrists and doctors have to report such serious cases.
    bnt wrote:
    The problem, as I see it, is this assumption that people go in to a confessional and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. How is that conceptually different from blurting something out to your friends at the pub after ten pints? The fact that someone says something is not proof that a crime has been committed: a judge or jury makes a decision based on the evidence, not just on something you said.
    It's not proof that a crime has been committed but it definitely warrants a look into it. A lot of these cases could have been prevented if just one priest came forward.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    The Catholic church will take years upon years to die out here. Especially when you have stupid people getting children christened for the sake of a piss up. Which I see a lot back home.... How can you be catholic if you go against so many teachings of the church? They don't have a clue.

    Co - Habitian.
    Pre - marital sex.
    Child born out of wedlock.
    etc etc


    Enda better stick to his words. First off get the papal nuncio the feck out of here. Show them we mean business. Those priests claim Irish nationality and live in the Irish Republic so they best start living by the laws of the land.


    Rurari Quinn isn't blinded by faith so he will have no problem in taking assets from the ones that don't pay up. I'd like to ask all Catholics.. How can you justify your faith when the men your god put on this earth to represent him do this kind of thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.
    The confessional has always been a tool of control and intimidation on the part of the church.

    Despite their God being all-knowing and all-forgiving, the only way to get absolution through that God is to confess to a priest, rather than, you know, to God. For some reason it only becomes "real" when it's said to priest. Otherwise you might only be pretending to confess and tricking an omnipotent being into forgiving you.

    The intention of confession is that the clergy are privy to all goings-on within the community and know everyone's dirty little secrets. This makes the priest the kind of guy you don't fnck with.

    There is no good reason to afford the confessional any special protection under law. You may as well make it OK for anyone to withhold information on crimes so long as they were told the information in confidence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    Seachmall wrote: »
    They were given a legal exemption to reporting crimes however they have abused this right to no end. Anyone else would be done for being an accomplice after the fact, even psychiatrists and doctors have to report such serious cases.

    Scientists showing more moral high ground once again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭Aldebaran


    If a person comes to you and confesses to abusing a child, and you do nothing about it, you are just as responsible as the abuser if they go on to abuse again. This should be very simple for an organisation that claims they are some sort of moral authority.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

    It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

    It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

    Madness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

    It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

    It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

    Madness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

    It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

    It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

    Madness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.

    It's this avoidance of real responsibility for their actions whilst at the same time thinking that simply telling a priest absolves them for they have done that really makes no sense.

    It's almost as if their mentality is "I'm guilty, so I told god and it's fine now. No way am I going to jail for it though, once I apologise to god it's all good."

    Madness.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Still it is withholding information. These are very serious crimes we are talking about here not someone dipping their hand in the collection plate.
    The "rules" are made up by a consistently self serving and corrupt organisation. They are subject to the laws of the land just like googles' or facebooks' or any other world wide multi billion business that operates here. Just cos the ceo wears a funny frock and claims to talk to god doesn't make any difference. If Zuckerberg suddenly turned tranny and claimed to speak to Jesus, he wouldn't be legally entitled to cover up rapes and murders, why should anyone else?

    the catholic church breaking their vows on confession has about the same chance of happening as the pope making an announcement tomorrow that you know that god fella, well we made him up!

    it isn't going to happen.

    by even mentioning it we've already strayed away from the areas that the church should be working on relating to child protection.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,253 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    mloc wrote: »
    It's the hypocrisy of it all that gets to me; people confess serious sins to a priest and want forgiveness, but they don't confess them to the correct legal authorities and therefore go unpunished.
    .


    Do you think this has got something to do with the catholic thing about once you confessed your sin you're absolved?

    Like as God is above man then his absolution is all that matters?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    wild_cat wrote: »
    The Catholic church will take years upon years to die out here. Especially when you have stupid people getting children christened for the sake of a piss up. Which I see a lot back home.... How can you be catholic if you go against so many teachings of the church? They don't have a clue.

    Co - Habitian.
    Pre - marital sex.
    Child born out of wedlock.
    etc etc


    Enda better stick to his words. First off get the papal nuncio the feck out of here. Show them we mean business. Those priests claim Irish nationality and live in the Irish Republic so they best start living by the laws of the land.


    Rurari Quinn isn't blinded by faith so he will have no problem in taking assets from the ones that don't pay up. I'd like to ask all Catholics.. How can you justify your faith when the men your god put on this earth to represent him do this kind of thing.

    Trying to explain this to people. "you have to get a child christened sure thats how you name the child". No you name the child by putting their name on a birth cert.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    the catholic church breaking their vows on confession has about the same chance of happening as the pope making an announcement tomorrow that you know that god fella, well we made him up!

    Then those who are known to have been aware of the abuse should serve time in prison, priest or no priest.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    I'd have thought God would forgive them for doing what is morally right.


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