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Seal of Confession

  • 14-07-2011 07:10PM
    #1
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭


    On the right hook this evening there was some politician talking about legislation making it mandatory to report abuse. Including information from confession.

    Now I don't think that a person who is so evil as to abuse a child would bother to listen to their conscience and go and confess their sins, but if they did I am sure the priest will never open up the seal of confession to any judge.

    Is the state going head to head with faith?


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Comments

  • #2
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    The sacramental seal is inviolable. Quoting Canon 983.1 of the Code of Canon Law, the Catechism states, "...It is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason" (No. 2490). A priest, therefore, cannot break the seal to save his own life, to protect his good name, to refute a false accusation, to save the life of another, to aid the course of justice (like reporting a crime), or to avert a public calamity. He cannot be compelled by law to disclose a person's confession or be bound by any oath he takes, e.g. as a witness in a court trial. A priest cannot reveal the contents of a confession either directly, by repeating the substance of what has been said, or indirectly, by some sign, suggestion, or action. A Decree from the Holy Office (Nov. 18, 1682) mandated that confessors are forbidden, even where there would be no revelation direct or indirect, to make any use of the knowledge obtained in the confession that would "displease" the penitent or reveal his identity.

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0059.html


  • #3
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Perhaps priests could inform penitents that they shouldn't disclose reportable offences in the confessional, and that if they do, those disclosures wouldn't fall under the 'seal'.


  • #4
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    dvpower wrote: »
    Perhaps priests could inform penitents that they shouldn't disclose reportable offences in the confessional, and that if they do, those disclosures wouldn't fall under the 'seal'.

    The point of confession is to confess the sin, however the Priest may encourage the penitent to confess the crime to the police!


  • #5
    Onesimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Onesimus


    I'm with gimmebroadband on that one. Code of Canon clearly states that if a priest breaks the seal of confession he is automatically ex-communicated.


  • #6
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    The point of confession is to confess the sin, however the Priest may encourage the penitent to confess the crime to the police!

    If this legislation is introduced, it will be an offence not to report a reportable offence. I can only see a few ways to deal with this.

    1) Priests would break the seal and report offences to the Gardai.
    2) Priests would not hear reportable offences in the confessional.
    3) Priests would refuse to break the seal and face the consequences (I think they're talking about jail terms).

    It looks like there is a simple conflict between canon and state law. Priests are subject to state law, like it or not.
    Option two seems like a solution.

    Maybe priests could hear the confession after the penitent reported the offence to the authorities. After all, (esp in cases where the penitent is the offender) its probably fair to say that they're not really penitent unless they are willing to report.


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  • #7
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Onesimus wrote: »
    I'm with gimmebroadband on that one. Code of Canon clearly states that if a priest breaks the seal of confession he is automatically ex-communicated.

    Its a clear choice between ex-communication and, perhaps, jail.

    Perhaps priests should reflect on the major reason for bringing in the legislation, that is the protection of children who are in danger or are currently being abused.


  • #8
    Onesimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Onesimus


    dvpower wrote: »
    Its a clear choice between ex-communication and, perhaps, jail.

    Perhaps priests should reflect on the major reason for bringing in the legislation, that is the protection of children who are in danger or are currently being abused.

    If I was a priest I wouldnt give absolution to an offender if he was not willing to report it. Because as you say he really isnt penitent if not willing to report his ''crime'' as well as sin.


  • #9
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    IMO the priest should never reveal anything he is told in confession.


  • #10
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Onesimus wrote: »
    If I was a priest I wouldnt give absolution to an offender if he was not willing to report it. Because as you say he really isnt penitent if not willing to report his ''crime'' as well as sin.

    Do priests have an obligation to hear confession? i.e. could a priest, on sensing that a reportable offence was going to be confessed, suspend the confession and advise the penitent that they first need to go to the authorities?


  • #11
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    dvpower wrote: »
    Do priests have an obligation to hear confession? i.e. could a priest, on sensing that a reportable offence was going to be confessed, suspend the confession and advise the penitent that they first need to go to the authorities?

    No point. its one of those sound bit laws that come out, but when the legislation gets drafted all the flaws come out. Its not only priests that have this seal. Legal representatives also, Doctors, Councillors aswell (to a certain extent).

    Many priests have died rather than reveal the seal of confession, nothing is going to change.


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  • #12
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,790 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Simple solution to this really, if a priest refuses to reveal information on the sexual abuse of a child, deport them back to Rome.

    I know a lot of people on this forum believe their organisations rules somehow trump this countrys laws, but in reality, they don't.

    You live in a country, you follow the laws of that entity.


  • #13
    Robert ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    This really doesn't matter as nobody is dumb enough to tell a priest (of all people) about a crime they commited. Honestly, who even goes to confession anymore?


  • #14
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    smokingman wrote: »

    You live in a country, you follow the laws of that entity.

    The early Christians were willing to be tortured and thrown to the lions rather than submit to laws of Rome!


  • #15
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Priests havent reported it when they hear confessions of other crimes, that aint going to change.


  • #16
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    alex73 wrote: »
    dvpower wrote: »
    Do priests have an obligation to hear confession? i.e. could a priest, on sensing that a reportable offence was going to be confessed, suspend the confession and advise the penitent that they first need to go to the authorities?

    No point. its one of those sound bit laws that come out, but when the legislation gets drafted all the flaws come out. Its not only priests that have this seal. Legal representatives also, Doctors, Councillors aswell (to a certain extent).

    Many priests have died rather than reveal the seal of confession, nothing is going to change.

    In the other cases you mention,AFAIK it would still be required to.report to the authorities if a person said they were going to commit a crime in the future,or were goign to kill themselves.Doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a priest would be expected to do the same.Breaking the seal in such cases would seem a lesser evil.


  • #17
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Robert ninja wrote: »
    This really doesn't matter as nobody is dumb enough to tell a priest (of all people) about a crime they commited. Honestly, who even goes to confession anymore?

    Judging by the queues I've seen in church, there is still plenty who go to confession, myself among them!


  • #18
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    In the other cases you mention,AFAIK it would still be required to.report to the authorities if a person said they were going to commit a crime in the future,or were goign to kill themselves.Doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a priest would be expected to do the same.Breaking the seal in such cases would seem a lesser evil.

    The seal cannot be broken under ANY circumstance as I posted previously, not even to save a life!!!


  • #19
    Onesimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Onesimus


    dvpower wrote: »
    Do priests have an obligation to hear confession? i.e. could a priest, on sensing that a reportable offence was going to be confessed, suspend the confession and advise the penitent that they first need to go to the authorities?

    If outside of the confessional a man was to reveal he comitted the crime of abusing children to the priest, then the priest can no doubt report it and is bound to of course. But in the seal of confession the priest can not report it and only refuse the penitent absolution should he refuse to report it. For if they are truly sorry for their sin then they will report it and face the consequences.

    If the priest had evidence outside of the confessional that this man/woman commited this crime then he can go and report it or even before the sin was confessed he could report it. But once in the confession box, whatever sins are confessed there, remain there and go nowhere else.


  • #20
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Onesimus wrote: »
    I'm with gimmebroadband on that one. Code of Canon clearly states that if a priest breaks the seal of confession he is automatically ex-communicated.

    So. We have someone admitting to abuse - an act of which we can say there is a reasonable chance of a repeat. The priest maintains this "seal"

    The man comes in the week after and confesses to more abuse.


    What do you think now..


  • #21
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    The early Christians were willing to be tortured and thrown to the lions rather than submit to laws of Rome!

    Quite..


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  • #22
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    alex73 wrote: »
    ...Legal representatives also, Doctors, Councillors aswell (to a certain extent)...

    Would it not make more sense for a priest to have this burden to the same extent, i.e. they cannot reveal anything from a confession unless the person is deemed to be a serious danger to themselves or others?

    On that note, what happens if someone discloses that they intend to commit suicide in confession?


  • #23
    chughes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭chughes


    Onesimus wrote: »
    I'm with gimmebroadband on that one. Code of Canon clearly states that if a priest breaks the seal of confession he is automatically ex-communicated.

    I must say that I find it hard to understand the logic that a clerical child abuser isn't ex-communicated but his confessor is if he informs the police.


  • #24
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    In the other cases you mention,AFAIK it would still be required to.report to the authorities if a person said they were going to commit a crime in the future,or were goign to kill themselves.Doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a priest would be expected to do the same.Breaking the seal in such cases would seem a lesser evil.

    The seal cannot be broken under ANY circumstance as I posted previously, not even to save a life!!!


    No,I do understand that,but I really don't think it is something that the state can or should legislate for.It puts priests in an awkward position (although I think its a rather theoretical situation really).Ultimately,had the bishops implemented their own policy things would probably never have come to this.


  • #25
    Onesimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Onesimus


    Robert ninja wrote: »
    This really doesn't matter as nobody is dumb enough to tell a priest (of all people) about a crime they commited. Honestly, who even goes to confession anymore?

    Well they are obviously dumb enough to tell their crime/sins to their blathering friends and psychiatrists that they visit. Why not go to a priest who faces ex-communication if he reveals your sins? who by the way is also trained in pshycology.

    I know someone who goes to a pshyciatrist and he used to tell her all the problems of his other clients and their sins :eek:

    So dont give me that nonsense. people do go to confession...the only change is....instead of confessing their sins to a priest they confess to the gossiping psychiatrist and their allegedly ''close'' friends and doctors.


  • #26
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    alex73 wrote: »
    No point. its one of those sound bit laws that come out, but when the legislation gets drafted all the flaws come out. Its not only priests that have this seal. Legal representatives also, Doctors, Councillors aswell (to a certain extent).

    Many priests have died rather than reveal the seal of confession, nothing is going to change.

    They might bring in some priest-penitent privilege, but not likely going by Enda Kenny today.
    rte.ie wrote:
    Meanwhile, Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said the new law on mandatory reporting of child abuse will apply irrespective of location or circumstance of the persons involved.
    Mr Kenny was replying to a question from journalists as to whether the traditional Catholic seal of the confessional will be exempted from the law.
    'The law of the land should not be stopped by crosier or by collar,' he said.

    I'd say it'll be just something that will never be prosecuted.


  • #27
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    alex73 wrote: »
    Now I don't think that a person who is so evil as to abuse a child would bother to listen to their conscience and go and confess their sins..

    Pick up The Woodsman next time you fancy a sombre dvd. It's goes a ways to dispelling what appears to be a bogeyman kind of image of child abusers.


  • #28
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    The seal cannot be broken under ANY circumstance as I posted previously, not even to save a life!!!
    Perhaps Catholics should lobby for a change in the (canon) law - it does seem to be far too rigid?


  • #29
    Onesimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Onesimus


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    So. We have someone admitting to abuse - an act of which we can say there is a reasonable chance of a repeat. The priest maintains this "seal"

    The man comes in the week after and confesses to more abuse.


    What do you think now..

    He gets refused absolution again for the sin unless he is going to report it to the authorities.


  • #30
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    No,I do understand that,but I really don't think it is something that the state can or should legislate for.It puts priests in an awkward position (although I think its a rather theoretical situation really).Ultimately,had the bishops implemented their own policy things would probably never have come to this.

    I don't see it making any difference to be honest, how do you prove a private conversation between two people, on a specific topic, took place when neither will talk about it and there is no record? How do you punish someone for something you can't prove?


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  • #31
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Priests havent reported it when they hear confessions of other crimes, that aint going to change.
    This new law will only apply to 'reportable' offences.


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