Seal of Confession

Bob Cratchet

dvpower wrote: »

The reason that the church as an organisation is being blamed is because the cover up goes right up the ranks, from priests, to bishops, to the pope himself.
When the problem is so endemic its reasonable to see something rotten in the organisation as a whole, perhaps in its constitution.
Its not right to blame everyone in the church including ordinary members, but they do often seem to be very accepting of the church's failures.

Yes but which Priests, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, and Popes are/were guilty ? The Golden thread of law and justice is that everyone, including you, is innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law. Which hierarchy denied / hampered / altered / deliberately misinterpreted the Popes rules and instructions ? No doubt everyone in the Vatican below the level of the Pope is blaming one another, who is guilty and who is telling the truth ? This is a vastly more complex issue than most people realise, and Satan is stuck right in the middle of it.

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Well most ordinary Catholics couldn't care less about Clerical Canon law, but we do care about the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

'After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.' - John 20:20-23

The Priests are the successors of the disciples and therefore God administers the Sacrament of forgiveness through them.

What is confessed is between the Penitent and God, the Priest is a mere conduit.

This is what Catholics believe.

Of course Protestants will disagree with that interpretation of the Bible, that is what makes them Protestant, but for a true Catholic, it is non negotiable.

I understand that the sacrement is important for Catholics. But the canon law of confidentiality isn't core to it, is it (e.g. is there a biblical basis for the requirement for confidentiality)?

I can also see why people might see a mandatory reporting requirement dicouraging some people from seeking the sacrement, but isn't it just a matter of balancing the potential good of the law against the potential damage to how people see the sacrament?

I can't at all see how this is a matter of faith.

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Yes but which Priests, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, and Popes are/were guilty ? The Golden thread of law and justice is that everyone, including you, is innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law. Which hierarchy denied / hampered / altered / deliberately misinterpreted the Popes rules and instructions ? No doubt everyone in the Vatican below the level of the Pope is blaming one another, who is guilty and who is telling the truth ? This is a vastly more complex issue than most people realise, and Satan is stuck right in the middle of it.

You don't see any organisational failure at all?

lmaopml

A fundamental 'evil' Callan57? Please tell me why you believe Catholics are 'fundamentally' evil? Other than you 'firmly' believe so - lots of people firmly believe many things.

I 'firmly' believe I don't like garlic or carrots, but love potatoes and chocolate, but not together lol..- but it's not fundamentally 'evil' or 'good'...it's just my opinion.

My goodness, it's very difficult to know what particular 'belief' a person has that posits this 'stance' on the church and it's faithful too...every diocese sees a renewal and judgement with each investigation...and yet, they are the ones being 'investigated' and co-operating like no other institution ever did that represents a minority statistically wise of peadophilia ( really really worth noting )...while the hidden criminals and perpetrators are still anon in the wider sense of investigations, and understanding and study..


It's ridiculous that this is a non issue....that Peadophiles are being connected with Catholicism when the 'truth' is vastly different - When the truth is, that the only institution ever to open up the flood gates IS the Catholic church, and it's membership etc......to a horrifying reality - that exists - everywhere, not only within it's own remit- sadly too.

Peadophilia is everywhere, it will not be 'abolished' by gratification of targetting the church, for whatever reason, and nailing it down...or it's faithful in doing so..

I have more regard for people who are actually 'honest'...good people, no matter what their 'belief' is that don't use circumstances for their own ends....they may think it's 'smart' or opportunistic - but it's not 'smart' it is simplicity and 'opportunistic'..

There are level headed people out there too though, my hope is they see the drama and also the drama related solution that is not a solution at all...just more of the same baseless solutions.

There is a reason why most countries didn't enforce or even suggest this 'law' should be put in place - and it's simple populist solution - Ireland, or any other western nation would be leading the way 'backwards' - I hope we don't buy this from any politician.

Bought cheap! Bargain basement stuff...

gigino

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

No doubt everyone in the Vatican below the level of the Pope is blaming one another, who is guilty and who is telling the truth ? This is a vastly more complex issue than most people realise, and Satan is stuck right in the middle of it.

Satan may indeed be stuck in the middle of the RCC as you say, and why else did whatever good priests there were in the RCC not come out and denounce their colleagues, instead of hiding the abuse and covering up ?
The dozen or so former Roman Catholic priests in Ireland alone who have left the Catholic church and who are now in other Christian churches have seen the light;)

Bob Cratchet

dvpower wrote: »

You don't see any organisational failure at all?

I see organisational failure everywhere, at all levels, but without proper proof and evidence, and as an ordinary Catholic, I cannot tell who in the heirachy is innocent and who is guilty.

I have no doubt whatsoever there is total and utter chaos going on in the Vatican for years now over the child abuse scandals. The scheming guilty are no doubt blaming the innocent to muddy the waters and plotting against them, the innocent are no doubt blaming the guilty, so who is able to tell who is innocent and who is guilty ?

Bob Cratchet

gigino wrote: »

Satan may indeed be stuck in the middle of the RCC as you say, and why else did whatever good priests there were in the RCC not come out and denounce their colleagues, instead of hiding the abuse and covering up ?
The dozen or so former Roman Catholic priests in Ireland alone who have left the Catholic church and who are now in other Christian churches have seen the light;)

So who can tell them apart ?
As far as I am concerned, to leave the Church and blame the innocent along with the guilty is exactly what Satan wants Catholics to do.
Most Catholics can do so if they want to, I won't be.

lmaopml

No, the 'light' is recognition that it is within their own remit, and not hatred of others or our past. The Catholic church is being used as an example, as I would expect it to do ultimately, considering it is the most recognised and most 'out there' church with a bullseye...

..but 'yes' I think it's all good to be part of a movement that is laid bare and has a mirror shined...especially if it ultimately protects children. That's what it's all about at the end of the day - no side tracked agendas necessary. Good people, want to protect children with 'good' laws...and very real understanding...that's what we are engaged in here...

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

I see organisational failure everywhere, at all levels, but without proper proof and evidence, but as an ordinary Catholic, I cannot tell who in the heirachy is innocent and who is guilty.

I have no doubt whatsoever there is total and utter chaos going on in the Vatican over the child abuse scandals. The scheming guilty are no doubt blaming the innocent to muddy the waters and plotting against them, the innocent are no doubt blaming the guilty, so who is able to tell who is innocent and who is guilty ?

Aren't all who cover up culpable? Aren't all who knew/know and did/do nothing culpable?

Robert ninja

Manach wrote: »

John 20:23 - If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained.

That's immoral.

lmaopml

dvpower wrote: »

Aren't all who cover up culpable? Aren't all who knew/know and did/do nothing culpable?

Like parents, ( yours and my ancestors, literally everybody who didn't understand or want to talk about peadophilia, don't mind homosexuals? ) the police, the judiciary system etc. etc.?

Yes.

Let's move on and not repeat mistakes, but be mindful..and not reactionary? There is no tail and donkey game going on unless one engages in such a mindless game with no recourse to reality and truth.

Manach

Offhand no, legally. <AFAIR>, there are different states of mental awareness to a crime: ranging from full knowlege, reckless indifference to unawareness. I think that the "knew/know and did/do nothing" might fall under the reckless catagory, and hence would be liable to a lesser to no penalty under whatever act is operative. </ARAIR>

Bob Cratchet

dvpower wrote: »

Aren't all who cover up culpable?

Yes, absolutely.

dvpower wrote: »

Aren't all who knew/know and did/do nothing culpable?

Yes, absolutely, but who actually knew for 100% certainty and had 100% proof ?

Again, without definite concrete proof, evidence and facts, as in any large organisation you cannot decide who is 100% guilty of such and who is not. Only a sate sanctioned court of law can decide with any certainty guilt, and you are innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law.

E.g. very simple example : If you heard rumours your neighbour was abusing their children and their wife was covering it up to save the family reputation and you went to the authorities to report it, and the authorities said, grand, but where’s your proof, and you had none, what then ? How can you make unfounded allegations ? Perhaps another neighbour because of a feud, wanted the other neighbours job, so they tactically and deliberately mislead you of the rumours to do their dirty work ? Who's telling the truth ? If your neighbour was totally innocent and you blackened their name for life in the community how do you think you would get on in future in that community, how would your credibility be for the next time a real abuse issue came up ? You have to be very careful about subscribing blame all over the shop wily nilly. e.g. "dvpower the scumbag told lies about people abusing children who were not" Vs "dvpower must have known the neighbour was abusing kids, yet the scumbad did nothing"

So you can't make the assumption that everything about this mess is a nice clear cut and dry issue. Some issues regarding the scandals are cut and dry, many others are not.

Manach

Robert ninja wrote: »

That's immoral.

based on ?

dvpower

lmaopml wrote: »

Like parents, ( yours and my ancestors, literally everybody who didn't understand or want to talk about peadophilia, don't mind homosexuals? ) the police, the judiciary system etc. etc.?

Yes. All culpable. Every right thinking person knows the harm of abuse. The 'we we on a learning curve' or 'we didn't understand it' stuff are just cheap excuses.

lmaopml wrote: »

Let's move on and not repeat mistakes, but be mindful..and not reactionary? There is no tail and donkey game going on unless one engages in such a mindless game with no recourse to reality and truth.

I heard church people saying 'lets move on and not repeat mistakes' a decade ago. And now we see that they are repeating the same mistakes. I wonder is the reluctance to accept mandatory reporting just repeating the same mistake yet again.

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Again, without definite concrete proof, evidence and facts, as in any large organisation you cannot decide who is 100% guilty of such and who is not. Only a sate sanctioned court of law can decide with any certainty guilt, and you are innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law.

You can. You can look at the reports that have been published and at the actions of the leadership of the RCC and make a judgement on them.

You don't need a criminal trial and convictions to figure out what is right and what is wrong.

Bob Cratchet

dvpower wrote: »

You can. You can look at the reports that have been published and at the actions of the leadership of the RCC and make a judgement on them.

Only when there is a report. What % of the Priests were guilty in the last report in that diocese ? 10%. That means 90% were not.

dvpower wrote: »

You don't need a criminal trial and convictions to figure out what is right and what is wrong.

What is right and wrong no. But you do need the state to legally determine guilt, administer justice and the law, and to make convictions and sentence the guilty to goal. You or I cannot or any innocent Priest cannot.

Sardonicat

Apologies if something similar has already been posted.

It's not just abusers confessing to a priest but also victims confiding in the confessional. A vulnerable young person confessing that Fr. so-so/mr x/uncle y/whovever/ made them do something bad. And the priest lets this kid go back to that scenario and does nothing?

A rapist priest gets treatment but a priest who tries to protect his victim gets excommunicated.Something's very, very wrong with that picture.

I think I'd prefer to be excommunicated from such an organisation.

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Only when there is a report, and what % of of the Priests were guilty ? 10%

There has been report after report after report. They've maned individual priests and bishops and pointed out organisational failures.
I'm not sure what you need before you cast your judgement.

Bob Cratchet

dvpower wrote: »

There has been report after report after report. They've maned individual priests and bishops and pointed out organisational failures.
I'm not sure what you need before you cast your judgement.

There has only been reports in three dioceses to my knowledge, each time declaring at least 90% of Priests to be innocent. Also the guilty were not named. The state must now persue them and enforce the law, if there is all this "proof" out there why have more not been gaoled as they should be ?

FERNHILLROCK

Cannon Law is church law, created to cover their asses, if you pardon the pun. Everybody is subject to the law of the land. Confession was invented by priests to collect private information on their parishoners, so they could control them. Does anyone go to confession nowadays. bad people use confession to save their souls, so they have a clean sheet to start the next crime. Time people in this country copped on, opened their eyes and see the church for what it is, a corrupt organisation of mostly queer men.

Robert ninja

Manach wrote: »

based on ?

My own evaluation. People aren't just innocent of crime because some chap in robes says they are, neither are the remained shamed for the same reason. You may think it's moral... and that's why I see most religions as a serious threat to society.

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

There has only been reports in three dioceses to my knowledge, each time declaring at least 90% of Priests to be innocent. Also the guilty were not named. The state must now persue them and enforce the law, if there is all this "proof" out there why have more not been gaoled as they should be ?

The guilt of individual abusers is one thing - the failures of the organisation is another. We don't need a criminal investigation to see the repeated failures of the RCC in covering up and allowing the abuse to go on.

We need the state to respond to the failure of the church to even follow their own child protection framework and that is what they are doing in part by introducing mandatory reporting. If the RCC is worried that mandatory reporting will damage the sacrament of confession they have only themselves to blame.

In The Sticks

alex73 wrote: »

On the right hook this evening there was some politician talking about legislation making it mandatory to report abuse. Including information from confession.

Now I don't think that a person who is so evil as to abuse a child would bother to listen to their conscience and go and confess their sins, but if they did I am sure the priest will never open up the seal of confession to any judge.

Is the state going head to head with faith?

On the other hand I'd say the priest who was taking the confession was probably whacking himself off and listening at the same time, Ya know what they are like!!

raymon

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

There has only been reports in three dioceses to my knowledge, each time declaring at least 90% of Priests to be innocent. Also the guilty were not named. The state must now persue them and enforce the law, if there is all this "proof" out there why have more not been gaoled as they should be ?

If your statistic is true then 10% are possibly guilty.
One in 10 ........ that's a lot of perverts if you ask me.

If you add in apologists, co conspirators, and those who ignored and covered up that sounds like one perverted organisation

PDN

Moderating Instruction

Guys, the majority of posts here are way off-topic.

We already have a thread to discuss clerical child abuse etc. We don't want two of those train-wrecks! This thread is for posts to do with the confessional.

Any more off-topic stuff and the thread will be locked.

FWIW, non-Catholic Christians also have an expectation that stuff divulged during pastoral counselling is confidential, but most of them already operate on the understanding that any confession of child abuse (or any revelation from a child or a third party concerning child abuse) must be reported to the Gardai and Social Services.

I don't know of any other crime where this policy of disclosure applies. For example, I have listened to people confessing to murder with no obligation being on me to report it.

Icepick

chughes wrote: »

I must say that I find it hard to understand the logic that a clerical child abuser isn't ex-communicated but his confessor is if he informs the police.

Religion & Spirituality > Christianity

Onesimus wrote: »

Nope its a serious sacrament with severe penalties of automatic ex-communication for any priest who breaks the seal, its an infallible indefinite sacramentl. The Law of God is above the Law of the Land and obedience to him must be shown should the law of the world contradict it.

But do you eat shellfish?

alex73 wrote: »

Generalisations to the extreme... What we have is a media storm of problems that have already been made public.
Yes some abuse took place.. But those who did it don't represent the 95% of the other good people in the church

The 'good' people who failed to act or covered it up.

alex73

PDN wrote: »

FWIW, non-Catholic Christians also have an expectation that stuff divulged during pastoral counselling is confidential, but most of them already operate on the understanding that any confession of child abuse (or any revelation from a child or a third party concerning child abuse) must be reported to the Gardai and Social Services.

I don't know of any other crime where this policy of disclosure applies. For example, I have listened to people confessing to murder with no obligation being on me to report it.

In the Catholic Church if a priest reveals the seal he is defrocked. Its a very sensitive area.

The Priest is acting "in person Christi"

If a person went to confess the sin of peodofilia the priest can take a number of measures, like Part of penence to go to gards. If a person is going to confession then they know what they are doing is wrong.

Most peodofiles don;t believe what they are doing is wrong, and could not be bothered with confession. the live in denial.

Confession, like counselling is a platform for reform and help.

Regardless of what laws Ireland brings in. Its not going to change the seal of confession which many priests have died to protect.

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

Confession, like counselling is a platform for reform and help.

No it is not , priests are not councillors , and may be abusers themselves.

Priests cannot help abusers. And moving them to another parish doesn't help either

alex73

raymon wrote: »

No it is not , priests are not councillors , and may be abusers themselves.

Priests cannot help abusers. And moving them to another parish doesn't help either

Come on... Read the logic in your post...

Its like say Mothers can't help their children as they may be abusers themselves (like the mother in Galway who abused her children)

Generalisations are petty.