Seal of Confession

Knight who says Meh

CATHOLIC CHURCH DEFENDERS AND APOLOGISTS:
I salute you. Keeping Ireland Irish.;)

Asry

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

CATHOLIC CHURCH DEFENDERS AND APOLOGISTS:
I salute you. Keeping Ireland Irish.;)

Onesimus

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

CATHOLIC CHURCH DEFENDERS AND APOLOGISTS:
I salute you. Keeping Ireland Irish.;)

I'm not an apologist, just your average wally.

Ghost Buster

But the seal of confession is pretend surely. Like Star Signs and that.?

raymon

Asry wrote: »

....all of it. Saying "the Vatican are a group of old men who protect paedophiles" ... implies that the RCC is made up entirely only of old men who all set out every day to protect paedophiles. I mean. Really? What level of ridiculousness is that? That's like saying all women are sex-crazed monsters who really just want men so that they can have babies.

Evil? What is that, exactly? How very Dan Brown of you. Unless you're used to dealing with the world completely in black and white, you might have noticed that there is no such thing as absolutely evil, or absolutely good - just millions of shades of gray in between.

To label a certain group as evil, to scapegoat them, to see them as 'other' - this is wise? Would you say this isn't ignorant, in view of the fact that actions and words like those are what triggered off the Holocaust?

And how do you know in whose name certain people have done certain things? I'm not denying that yes, there are members of the clergy who have shielded their kiddyfiddling comrades when they should have turned them over to the police. I doubt they invoked the name of the Lord when they did it, though. And even if they did, how would we know? Unless you personally know a number of priests who protected other priests who were abusers of children, and they told you that yes, they did it for Jesus.

I'm not expecting the post to be removed. I just hope that people would think before they blurt out any inane thing that comes into their heads just because they have the wide world of the Internet before them.

Evil as opposed to good , old as opposed to young ,protecting and covering up as opposed to exposing . I stand by my post

Onesimus

Ghost Buster wrote: »

But the seal of confession is pretend surely. Like Star Signs and that.?

Nope its a serious sacrament with severe penalties of automatic ex-communication for any priest who breaks the seal, its an infallible indefinite sacramentl. The Law of God is above the Law of the Land and obedience to him must be shown should the law of the world contradict it.

When we enter the confessional the priest puts the purple sash ( sometimes already wearing it unless you've just met him and walk in together ) around his neck whilst kissing it and thats it. you are now in the seal of confession.

Ghost Buster

Onesimus wrote: »

Nope its a serious sacrament with severe penalties of automatic ex-communication for any priest who breaks the seal, its an infallible indefinite sacramentl. The Law of God is above the Law of the Land and obedience to him must be shown should the law of the world contradict it.

When we enter the confessional the priest puts the purple sash ( sometimes already wearing it unless you've just met him and walk in together ) around his neck whilst kissing it and thats it. you are now in the seal of confession.

So its pretend then. Gotcha.

Onesimus

Ghost Buster wrote: »

So its pretend then. Gotcha.

???

raymon

Onesimus wrote: »

Nope its a serious sacrament with severe penalties of automatic ex-communication for any priest who breaks the seal, its an infallible indefinite sacramentl. The Law of God is above the Law of the Land and obedience to him must be shown should the law of the world contradict it.

When we enter the confessional the priest puts the purple sash ( sometimes already wearing it unless you've just met him and walk in together ) around his neck whilst kissing it and thats it. you are now in the seal of confession.

I see now ,kissing the purple scarf makes it all good.

What a load of witchcraft.

When did Jesus or god sign off on this ??

gimmebroadband

raymon wrote: »

I see now ,kissing the purple scarf makes it all good.

What a load of witchcraft.

When did Jesus or god sign off on this ??

Matthew 18:18

Jesus passes authority to the Apostles and to their successors!!

Manach

John 20:23 - If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained.

toby08

I think that this thread has shown that we still in Ireland want to defend the rc church.this whole debate has lost the essence which is innocent children being abused and the life long lasting effect on them and their families.
each report brings out more and more horror stories and they are repeated world wide wherever the rc church held any power.
and yet we saw a guy interviewed on the national news who, to the vast majority of people watching showed no remorse. This thread is about the confessional again to be honest i dont give a rats as for canon law if somebody admits to wrongdoing it must be reported. In legal terms it would still be here-say but it would be a starting point for an investigation. how can anyone hear of such an act in a confession and not risk being excommunicated for doing the right thing.
I for one would have no problem making a decision that cost me my job if it meant one child was protected.
the confession and secrecy involved is not helping rc religion recruit good people.a previous comment mentioned "absolutes" the rc and it deceptions from the lowest to the highest ranking member does not promise a bright future and as an organisation is very close to being vessel for evil rather than good. As person who travels a good deal with my business I have come to the point that I am ashamed to admit I was once an Irish Roman Catholic for the shame it brings. I wish the irish people had the wisdom and strength to say no more no more lies no more falsehoods from the altar .name the perverts and put them behind bars it needs to be done .The days of moving to another parish is gone.I know that in my parish and in others concerned parents actually try to vet any new priest coming to the area I think this is a start, the clergy now have to re-earn the trust of the irish people. Lets start by reporting the pedo's stop protecting them end the hurt. Forget hundreds of years of brainwashing save the children !!!!!
as to the earlier comment about being the first country to pass a law breaking the seal of confession............I say go for it let Ireland be a shining example to the world the first to break the control of centuries pass the law and dont be forever known as the sleazy little backwater that turns a blind eye to the hurt and pain of its children

raymon

Manach wrote: »

John 20:23 - If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained.

No kissing of the purple scarf mentioned here. nor letting the police know about rapists

lmaopml

Well that's just the simple logic of it Onesimus. A law that makes a Priest duty bound to report a Peadophile to the authorities, after hearing a confession, just rules out one place that they may actually 'go' and make a confession...and could be encouraged to report 'themselves' to the authorities.

The imagination and innovative ways to stop Peadophilia never fail to amaze me from a State that failed dismally, and now fails with even greater magnitude by offering up mealy mouthed populist and poorly thought out responses - so well thought out the rest of the Western world that value human liberty and rights haven't thought of such simplicity and delivering such ineffectual law. Hip hip hurray - we're leading the way to nowhere.

gimmebroadband

toby08 wrote: »

I think that this thread has shown that we still in Ireland want to defend the rc church.this whole debate has lost the essence which is innocent children being abused and the life long lasting effect on them and their families.
each report brings out more and more horror stories and they are repeated world wide wherever the rc church held any power.
and yet we saw a guy interviewed on the national news who, to the vast majority of people watching showed no remorse. This thread is about the confessional again to be honest i dont give a rats as for canon law if somebody admits to wrongdoing it must be reported. In legal terms it would still be here-say but it would be a starting point for an investigation. how can anyone hear of such an act in a confession and not risk being excommunicated for doing the right thing.
I for one would have no problem making a decision that cost me my job if it meant one child was protected.
the confession and secrecy involved is not helping rc religion recruit good people.a previous comment mentioned "absolutes" the rc and it deceptions from the lowest to the highest ranking member does not promise a bright future and as an organisation is very close to being vessel for evil rather than good. As person who travels a good deal with my business I have come to the point that I am ashamed to admit I was once an Irish Roman Catholic for the shame it brings. I wish the irish people had the wisdom and strength to say no more no more lies no more falsehoods from the altar .name the perverts and put them behind bars it needs to be done .The days of moving to another parish is gone.I know that in my parish and in others concerned parents actually try to vet any new priest coming to the area I think this is a start, the clergy now have to re-earn the trust of the irish people. Lets start by reporting the pedo's stop protecting them end the hurt. Forget hundreds of years of brainwashing save the children !!!!!
as to the earlier comment about being the first country to pass a law breaking the seal of confession............I say go for it let Ireland be a shining example to the world the first to break the control of centuries pass the law and dont be forever known as the sleazy little backwater that turns a blind eye to the hurt and pain of its children

As an abused child myself by 2 others outside of the RCC, you can be certain that it is more rife in the secular world and a bigger danger to children than in the CC.

lmaopml

I'm sorry gimmebroadband - I didn't know that. You're a courageous and level headed person imo. I think that's the 'blind spot' - we're so fuelled up with outrage that we need a 'focal' point, and the focal point is somewhere to vent frustration, but the focus ( which should happen, if it helps children and encourages their protection ) is hugely missing beneath the nose and the notion of introducing effectual law that recognises a reality, and deals with that reality rather than a ghost in the mirror.

Like for a start - longer sentences for dangerous criminals and sex offenders...and rehabilitation rather than incarceration for those who may respond to it - whether it's petty theft or drug addiction or not paying a TV licence or bin charges or parking fines et al. Also, it would be nice if they introduced some laws to deal with White collar crime, but that might be too taxing - obviously! Mirrors and smoke screens is the name of the game...that our 'society' and it's 'law' givers engage in, while pointing the finger for the very same thing....It's mad! ...and all the time we are sleeping dogs in a media fuelled frenzy, told what to 'think' - sold an opinion.

Benny_Cake

lmaopml wrote: »

Well that's just the simple logic of it Onesimus. A law that makes a Priest duty bound to report a Peadophile to the authorities, after hearing a confession, just rules out one place that they may actually 'go' and make a confession...and could be encouraged to report 'themselves' to the authorities.

The imagination and innovative ways to stop Peadophilia never fail to amaze me from a State that failed dismally, and now fails with even greater magnitude by offering up mealy mouthed populist and poorly thought out responses - so well thought out the rest of the Western world that value human liberty and rights haven't thought of such simplicity and delivering such ineffectual law. Hip hip hurray - we're leading the way to nowhere.

In a way though,it makes no difference to society at large whether someone is willing to confess to a priest-the most important thing to the general public is that they aren't in a position to harm a child.Its hard to see someone feeling enough remorse that they go to confession,yet not enough that they are willing to go to the authorities.It all seems very theoretical.

I've been thinking a lot about this,and it strikes me that there are no cut and dried answers to this question.Ultimately though,it would be hard to see any politician putting a specific loophole aimed at the Catholic clergy in any legislation.There would be an uproar if they did.For this,one can thank the bishops who ignored and lied about the problem,and then disregarded their own guidelines.The ultimate responsibility for that goes to the very top as far as I'm concerned and decent priests should aim their anger there.

toby08

very courageous gimmiebroadband but this thread is about the confessional and in my opinion that is the way to deal with it.There are various persons working outside the chuch under strict confidentiality but are still bound to report child abuse sexual or otherwise. My point is that I dont see why the church or any organisation should have a "get out of jail free card " it has to be obvious that the church are not willing to put their house in order so an outside influence has to be brought to bear. Religion cannot be exempt from the law of the land.Women of the muslim faith have had their rights tampered with in various countries recently but it is regarded as essential for security purposes, removing the burkah. this is just an example that came to mind to my way of thinking safety of children and vulnerable others must out weigh religous laws.......
If a number of bishops right up to the present pontiff had any morals we would not be reading this thread....

Citygirl1

Regarding the seal of confession, I'm thinking of some different scenarios:

If, say, someone goes to confession and admits that they they have very recently abucted and murdered a child, and have hidden the body, and then (because they're nuts) tells the priest where the body is hidden.

Now the priest knows from the media that half the countryside, and police force are out searching for the victim, not sure if they are dead or alive. He also knows that the confessor will not turn himself in.
- If the priest goes to the police, and reports the details and the confessor, it appears that he is "breaking" the seal of confession.
- If the priest was to go to the police, and let them know where the body is, but refuses to disclose the identity of the confessor, is this still breaking the seal? If, finding the body gives the police other evidence, which leads to the identification of the murderer, would the priest then be considered to have broken the seal?
- If the priest simply sits on this information, how can this be morally correct, in the eyes of the Church?

lmaopml

A number, actually the vast majority, if you are level headed, out of billions of Catholics do have 'morals' throughout the time period that is being 'investigated' they were our parents and teachers during particularly shyte times etc. etc. - no amount of whitewashing society ( or indeed the Church) will take away from the very simple fact that 'abuse' is not a monopoly owned by the Church, and neither is 'cover up' or lack of understanding the brevity of a peadophiles condition.

Behind that also is that we're living in a different world 'now' than our ancestors, lets not foop it up with hysteria?.... that actually understands peadophilia a little better......a world where 'differences' is celebrated - and freedom of all kinds is an ideal - free choice to make or break our lives.

Finger pointing is never a good defense, never ever - but it would serve a purpose to educate oneself on actual facts, if child protection is the 'actual' aim, not to mention it would do justice too to the very many good people who 'happen' to be Catholic, and also our ancestors, who we 'know' weren't the evil people who were idiots of some kind ( some were and we still have those people among us, Catholic or otherwise ) as popular opinon now claims to be an 'educated' reality. There is nothing educated about side stepping and distancing oneself from a reality of times gone by with lack of understanding....nothing.

Bob Cratchet

Robert ninja wrote: »

This really doesn't matter as nobody is dumb enough to tell a priest (of all people) about a crime they commited.

Really and how about if a deviant Priest plots to admit child abuse to his Bishop in confession, in order to deliberately hamper the Bishop acting on it, what then ? You think everything is nice and simple and clear cut. It is far from so.

phantom_lord wrote: »

That's nice, but it doesn't take away from the incredible amount that went on.

Which in turn doesn't take away from everything that didn't go on.

Duddy wrote: »

The law of the church doesn't somehow trump the law of the land, however hallowed, historical or mystical it makes itself out to be - bottom line is, if someone hears that someone else is sexually abusing kids, they report it. How is this even being argued?!

And what about a Solicitor or Doctor, they cannot break client privlege either.

dvpower wrote: »

I think that the lawyer-client privilege might be a red herring. If a case is already with a lawyer, then I presume that that the offence has already been reported.

How do you presume so, they could reveal additional and different offences in the course of their discussion.

raymon wrote: »

What would Jesus say.?

I don't recall Jesus reporting anything that was confessed to him to the authorities, no doubt he would have urged them to turn themselves in.

dvpower wrote: »

This is why I can't fathom the 'priests would rather die than violate the seal' attitude.

This has got to do with church rules, not faith.

It has everything to do with faith, church rules are secondary

chughes wrote: »

I must say that I find it hard to understand the logic that a clerical child abuser isn't ex-communicated but his confessor is if he informs the police.

The law society and medical council would also bar their members from practice if they breached client privlege.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The penitent could confess to a priest anonymously!!

Exactly, the vast majority of confessions are so, the priest is behind a screen and would rarely know the penitents identity.

Asry

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0715/breaking1.html

This came out today, that the guide has been launched and all. I just need something made clearer for me (my mind is a slow worker ). So does this apply to the population as a whole or to people who work with children? I mean, if my friend confessed to me that they can't stop finding children attractive and don't know what to do, do I have to report them or face prison? Or what?

Callan57

toby08 wrote: »

......
If a number of bishops right up to the present pontiff had any morals we would not be reading this thread....

That is the nub of the problem really ... when you see that that guy who couldn't even be bothered to turn up at the press conference because he was at his holiday home was a Professor of MORAL Theology ... I mean who do they think they are fooling clearly the man knows nothing about morality? And indeed his form of perverted morality is the reason the church is in the mire again.

I am firmly convinced that there is a fundamental evil at the heart of the Roman Church & these never ending scandals are the Almighty's way of trying to make them sit up & face that evil. But the hierarchy are so full of hubris & pride they will not listen. Have you noticed that every time they think they have survived another scandal up pops the same issue again somewhere else? It is like the hydra and unless the fundamental issue, which IMHO is that the obsession with power and control has obliterated any inkling of the life of Christ & what he stood for.

alex73

Callan57 wrote: »

That is the nub of the problem really ... when you see that that guy who couldn't even be bothered to turn up at the press conference because he was at his holiday home was a Professor of MORAL Theology ... I mean who do they think they are fooling clearly the man knows nothing about morality? And indeed his form of perverted morality is the reason the church is in the mire again.

I am firmly convinced that there is a fundamental evil at the heart of the Roman Church & these never ending scandals are the Almighty's way of trying to make them sit up & face that evil. But the hierarchy are so full of hubris & pride they will not listen. Have you noticed that every time they think they have survived another scandal up pops the same issue again somewhere else? It is like the hydra and unless the fundamental issue, which IMHO is that the obsession with power and control has obliterated any inkling of the life of Christ & what he stood for.

Generalisations to the extreme... What we have is a media storm of problems that have already been made public.


Yes some abuse took place.. But those who did it don't represent the 95% of the other good people in the church

Bob Cratchet

Callan57 wrote: »

That is the nub of the problem really ... when you see that that guy who couldn't even be bothered to turn up at the press conference because he was at his holiday home was a Professor of MORAL Theology ... I mean who do they think they are fooling clearly the man knows nothing about morality? And indeed his form of perverted morality is the reason the church is in the mire again.

I am firmly convinced that there is a fundamental evil at the heart of the Roman Church & these never ending scandals are the Almighty's way of trying to make them sit up & face that evil. But the hierarchy are so full of hubris & pride they will not listen. Have you noticed that every time they think they have survived another scandal up pops the same issue again somewhere else? It is like the hydra and unless the fundamental issue, which IMHO is that the obsession with power and control has obliterated any inkling of the life of Christ & what he stood for.

I actually agree 100% with the above, except the real problem is everyone in the church is being blamed, not just the guilty. This suits the guilty down to the ground as they can then just hide among the rest, and in turn it becomes even more difficult within the Church to weed out and prove who is guilty and who is not.

Imagine a sizeable proportion of people in the GAA were suspected of being either involved in abuse or for wrongly and incompetently trying to deal with it and prevent it quietly to protect the name of GAA, how exactly would you prove / distinguish the guilty from the innocent ?

Callan57

alex73 wrote: »

Generalisations to the extreme... What we have is a media storm of problems that have already been made public.


Yes some abuse took place.. But those who did it don't represent the 95% of the other good people in the church

Ah yes .. the single transferrable mantra to be repeated ad nauseum every time the corruption at the heart of the church is highlighted. Then brazen it out & wait for the next headline.

Bob Cratchet

Callan57 wrote: »

Ah yes .. the single transferrable mantra to be repeated ad nauseum every time the corruption at the heart of the church is highlighted.

The reason this has to be repeated ad nuseum, is because the media are refusing to report or acknowledge this fact. The Catholic Church consists of 1 billion people.

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

It has everything to do with faith, church rules are secondary

Can you explain why this has more to do with faith than church rules? I'm honestly stuck on this point.

dvpower

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

I actually agree 100% with the above, except the real problem is everyone in the church is being blamed, not just the guilty. This suits the guilty down to the ground as they can then just hide among the rest, and in turn it becomes even more difficult within the Church to weed out and prove who is guilty and who is not.

Imagine a sizeable proportion of people in the GAA were suspected of being either involved in abuse or for wrongly and incompetently trying to deal with it and prevent it quietly to protect the name of GAA, how exactly would you prove / distinguish the guilty from the innocent ?

The reason that the church as an organisation is being blamed is because the cover up goes right up the ranks, from priests, to bishops, to the pope himself.

When the problem is so endemic its reasonable to see something rotten in the organisation as a whole, perhaps in its constitution.
Its not right to blame everyone in the church including ordinary members, but they do often seem to be very accepting of the church's failures.

Bob Cratchet

dvpower wrote: »

Can you explain why this has more to do with faith than church rules? I'm honestly stuck on this point.

Well most ordinary Catholics couldn't care less about Clerical Canon law, but we do care about the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

'After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.' - John 20:20-23

The Priests are the successors of the disciples and therefore God administers the Sacrament of forgiveness for Catholics through them.

What is confessed is between the Penitent and God, the Priest is a mere conduit.

This is what Catholics believe.

Of course Protestants will disagree with that interpretation of the Bible, that is what makes them Protestant, but for a true Catholic, it is non negotiable.