Seal of Confession

raymon

What would Jesus say.?

He would be disgusted that these perverts are being protected and shielded

The catholic church protects perverts in many ways and forms .

When did god or Jesus approve these Canon laws ?

Any priest that hides behind Canon law is a coward, and complicit in the abuse

raymon

Asry wrote: »

I've been following along here and I would agree with the Vatican's stance that the seal of confession is above and beyond reproach. I mean, where else could people just admit to what they've done and try to change their ways and make amends? We're talking about eternal life, here, not just this life on earth. I do think though that being able to just admit to what you've done and just say it out loud to someone without fear of legal ramifications is important for people to come to terms with their crimes. The logical turn to that is that they would seek help and/or turn themselves in.

When did Jesus or god state that confession was above and beyond reproach.

I must have missed that memo

bleg

dvpower wrote: »

If this passes (and there is ever real life cases) then priests are going to be in trouble with either canon law or state law. They're just going to have to choose their allegiance.

Choose their allegiance to child rapists or victims... hmm...


I think the whole thing is completely and utterly ****ed up. How somebody who is supposed to be a community leader could be told about child rape and do nothing except prescribe a few hail marys?

You guys need to take a serious look at yourselves if you think this carry on is OK.

AhSureTisGrand

dvpower wrote: »

I don't think a lawyer can enter into evidence something that he knows to be false.

My understanding is that there's a big difference between lying and defending a plea one believes to be false. A lot of lawyers just bend the truth. Then of course there are those who don't care and tell all the lies they can

token56

dvpower wrote: »

How can someone make amends without turning themselves into the civil authorities?
Do some Catholics view the confessional as some kind of 'get out of jail free' card?

This exactly, this isn't for petty crimes its for crimes relating to the abuse of children and the mentally disabled. If someone really wants to feel better by talking about it surely the civil authorities would be the best place to go. I find it pretty pathetic if someone simply thinks that by confessing such a crime to God that everything is ok and they are absolved of the crime.

Also one thing I never understood about confession, why does it have to be through a priest? I get they are supposed to be Gods representatives etc and have sort of a direct line to the big guy but surely if someone wanted to repent on their own through prayer or whatever an all hearing, omnipotent God would know and accept it. The middle man of the priest seems a rather unnecessary step and the only purpose I can see is to for control.

bleg

token56 wrote: »

Also one thing I never understood about confession, why does it have to be through a priest?

Power

raymon

I have read through this thread and I an disgusted by some of the posts .

There are many evil people hiding behind Canon law.

How can you justify the non reporting of a child rape

Silence is complicity in the rape itself

token56

bleg wrote: »

Power

Oh I understand this but I'm just trying to understand the catholic logic behind it all. I know the priest by reciting formula of absolution forgives the sins in Gods place but why does there need to be spoken confirmation? Can someone not have faith that if they confess their own sins in their prayers that God will hear them and know if they are actually honest about repenting and have faith that he forgives them?

bleg

I doubt you'll get an answer to that!

Asry

raymon wrote: »

When did god or Jesus approve these Canon laws ?

What's that got to do with anything? We're talking about manmade things.

raymon

Asry wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything? We're talking about manmade things.

Exactly my point

token56

bleg wrote: »

I doubt you'll get an answer to that!

I can live in hope

Asry

dvpower wrote: »

How can someone make amends without turning themselves into the civil authorities?
Do some Catholics view the confessional as some kind of 'get out of jail free' card?

Oh, certainly not. But the confessional and confession itself have nothing to do with earthly things or human law. It's to do with the state of your soul and, sometimes, your mind. I've gotten fairly commonsense advice from priests while in confession, which would lead me to think that most priests, on hearing something as egregious as a crime like that, would tell the person to go to the police.

dvpower

Asry wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything? We're talking about manmade things.

This is why I can't fathom the 'priests would rather die than violate the seal' attitude.

This has got to do with church rules, not faith. The assured confidentiality of the confession is probably a good thing in general, since it allows people to talk freely, but if there is a greater good (like saving a victim from further abuse) then some dilution of it seems reasonable.

gimmebroadband

Lets imagine that the seal of confession was changed, then penitents probably won't confess for fear of being 'shopped'!!

Manach

If the seal of confession is broken for abuse, then this would be a precedent to expand it to other crimes. So what was was once a strictly private matter the confession, could in theory become such so that no secrets are to be withheld from the State.
The roots of civil law were closely entwined with canon, and influenced the creation of equitiable law, ARAIR from lectures.

dvpower

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Lets imagine that the seal of confession was changed, then penitents probably won't confess for fear of being 'shopped'!!

Won't they retain their sins and go to hell then?

bleg

How can a priest morally justify not going to the police in such circumstances?

gimmebroadband

“The law of the land should not be stopped by a collar or a crozier,” said Irish Prime Minister, Edna Kenny."

Could he and others who would support the breach of the seal of confession be excommunicated???

28064212

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Lets imagine that the seal of confession was changed, then penitents probably won't confess for fear of being 'shopped'!!

The seal of confession doesn't have to be changed, but priests will suffer if it's not. And if penitents won't confess for fear of being 'shopped', then they're clearly not penitents.

If canon law says that a priest has to punch someone in the face every day, it doesn't change the legality of that act. The seal of confession question is entirely irrelevant to the law of the land

gimmebroadband

dvpower wrote: »

Won't they retain their sins and go to hell then?

Unconfessed mortal sins would certainly damn them to Hell!

Manach

bleg wrote: »

How can a priest morally justify not going to the police in such circumstances?

The priest should try to persude the person to turn themselves into the police as part of absolution, IMHO.

gimmebroadband

It would set a precendent for 'other' sins like murder, robberies, stealing etc. to be reported to the police!!

dvpower

Manach wrote: »

If the seal of confession is broken for abuse, then this would be a precedent to expand it to other crimes. So what was was once a strictly private matter the confession, could in theory become such so that no secrets are to be withheld from the State.
The roots of civil law were closely entwined with canon, and influenced the creation of equitiable law, ARAIR from lectures.

Depends on how the law is framed. Usually mandatory reporting rules define the classes of people who are subject to mandatory reporting and the classes of offence that are subject to it.

There might be a 'slippery slope' argument, but your worry that 'no secrets are to be withheld from the State' is starting at the very bottom of the slope.

Magic Beans

Nobody is stopping them asking God directly for forgiveness.

There are so many gods and religions out there that if they all claimed to be above the law of the land as the Catholic church does that society would descend into absolute chaos. For that reason alone no religion, nor anbody else should be above the law of the land.

One thing that must not be forgotten here is that we are not talking about ordinary church members confessing to sins we are talking about a vast, on-going conspiracy of silence by the church and its hierarchy regarding the horrendous acts perpetrated by its clergy on children. If there really is a god, getting jailed for contempt of court is the very least of their worries. The pit awaits them for all eternity.

gimmebroadband

Of could politicians who did the dirty and confessed them to the priest would also be reported!:D

dvpower

gimmebroadband wrote:

Lets imagine that the seal of confession was changed, then penitents probably won't confess for fear of being 'shopped'!!

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Unconfessed mortal sins would certainly damn them to Hell!

No fear then of genuine penitents not confessing.

Manach

dvpower wrote: »

Depends on how the law is framed. Usually mandatory reporting rules define the classes of people who are subject to mandatory reporting and the classes of offence that are subject to it.

There might be a 'slippery slope' argument, but your worry that 'no secrets are to be withheld from the State' is starting at the very bottom of the slope.

- Having studied history, I decided to skip ahead to worst case scenario and project based on how some States have operated in the past.

- re: mandatory rules. I'd not have studied those yet, so it will be interesting to view Minister Shatters new proposals.

28064212

Manach wrote: »

If the seal of confession is broken for abuse, then this would be a precedent to expand it to other crimes. So what was was once a strictly private matter the confession, could in theory become such so that no secrets are to be withheld from the State.

The seal of confession should be an irrelevancy to the law. Confessing to a priest should have no more protection from the law than confessing to your friend. The law should not mention anything about the Catholic act confession. It should state that people are legally bound to report (certain types of) crime.

bleg

Manach wrote: »

The priest should try to persude the person to turn themselves into the police as part of absolution, IMHO.

But if they didn't, how could the priest live with it and not tell anybody about it? It sounds completely immoral and unethical to me.