Race hate gang in Temple Bar orgy of violence [mod note #1]

sollar · 09-07-2011 01:34PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Is this a foregone conclusion now? I must have missed where this was established as fact.

Congratulations on your pompous post. Its a good one.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 01:37PM

mikemac wrote: »

A senior detective stated it

"We believe that what happened on the night was motivated by racism -- that is racism against white people.

Right, but that isn't the same as it being established in fact, is it? Let's be clear - I'm not stating that it wasn't or couldn't have been racially motivated, I'm just stating that it hasn't yet been established in fact.

mikemac wrote: »

And the thugs themselves wanted to bring race into it

Disgraceful on their part, but it says noting about that we are discussing.

mikemac wrote: »

They can play the race card but it's wrong of any of us to think it was a racist attack?

It was wrong when they did it, and it would be wrong for us to make up our minds based on a (fictional?) quote about someone's 'beliefs'. Bear in mind, if this detective even exists, he might have arrived at his belief via racism too.

wolf moon · 09-07-2011 01:38PM

sollar wrote: »

You completely miss the point. Skin colour is relevant here because it was a racist attack by one skin colour against another.

you just don't get me, do you?

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 01:39PM

sollar wrote: »

Congratulations on your pompous post. Its a good one.

I've been accused of 'pomposity' on AH. Marvellous!

Of course, it allows you to dodge the question. Congratulations on your feeble post. It's a poor one.

fedor.2. · 09-07-2011 01:40PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Right, but that isn't the same as it being established in fact, is it? Let's be clear - I'm not stating that it wasn't or couldn't have been racially motivated, I'm just stating that it hasn't yet been established in fact.

Disgraceful on their part, but it says noting about that we are discussing.

It was wrong when they did it, and it would be wrong for us to make up our minds based on a (fictional?) quote about someone's 'beliefs'. Bear in mind, if this detective even exists, he might have arrived at his belief via racism too.

What a stupid post

suicide_circus · 09-07-2011 01:44PM

So afraid of being labelled racist, SO AFRAID

mikemac · 09-07-2011 01:44PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm just stating that it hasn't yet been established in fact.

I've had a look at post 1, it mentions court but doesn't give a date.
A court case will sort this out

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Bear in mind, if this detective even exists, he might have arrived at his belief via racism too.

A gang of thugs play the race card but if a senior garda believes it's a racist attack, wow he must be racist too?
And this then shows the point made by many, if you ask the tough questions people will label you a racist to deflect attention.

You don't get to senior detective by being incompetent
But it is a fair point that we don't know if the Herald invented the quote so we'll have to wait for the court case

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 01:45PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

What a stupid post

Good argument. But mine is better.

suicide_circus · 09-07-2011 01:48PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Bear in mind, if this detective even exists, he might have arrived at his belief via racism too.

Sure this detective might be black, what then?!??! Dun, dun..DUNNNN!!!

Bullseye1 · 09-07-2011 01:52PM

Those people involved should be brought to justice and deported if necessary.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 01:53PM

mikemac wrote: »

I've had a look at post 1, it mentions court but doesn't give a date.
A court case will sort this out

Yes, hopefully.

mikemac wrote: »

A gang of thugs play the race card but if a senior garda believes it's a racist attack, wow he must be racist too.

Not necessarily - please don't put words in my mouth. I'll come back to this.

mikemac wrote: »

You don't get to senior detective by being incompetent
But it is a fair point that we don't know if the Herald invented the quote so we'll have to wait for the court case

Yes, the papers routinely invent these quotes.

Regarding the police - police are made up of the population, and therefore can be sexist, homophobic or racist. You can be any of these things and still be competent at your job, but at a certain point your preconceptions may get in the way of solving crimes. We've already had the Stephen Lawrence case raised here, where their failure to convict the murderers at the time was in a large part blamed on 'institutional racism' in the police force. Here's an example from this country that was in the papers recently.

So - if we can agree that some people are racist, and will interpret events through that filter? - how is not possible that the Garda quoted arrived at his belief via these preconceptions? (if this Garda actually exists, of course)

gbee · 09-07-2011 02:04PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

But you can't speak for all of "THEM" can you? You are not "THEM". You cannot say exactly how "THEY" think "THEY" want to live "THEIR" lives in Ireland, can you?

They and them set themselves apart and it's the same in all communities, don't forget our own travelling communities have been with us for hundreds of years, there is nothing new in the mix except one thing, the numbers are bigger.

In all problems THEY separate out and it becomes obvious. My work takes me to all communities I do get to hear both sides and uniquely, hear complaints from fellow ethnic groups about their own ~ see They separate out THEM too.

I think we should go back to the Taxi rank thread to continue this aspect of the discussion, if you have not read it while it was running, you'd have seen how separation occurs and one is left in no doubt about who is doing the separation ~

Reekwind · 09-07-2011 02:11PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Sure this detective might be black, what then?!??! Dun, dun..DUNNNN!!!

Then the article would have referred to him as 'African'

King of Kings · 09-07-2011 02:12PM

I don't really care who beat who - it was a disgraceful crime whoever did it.

However if a gang of irish people (white) had rampaged through Temple Bar beating blacks (or gays for that matter) it would have been front page stuff, newstalk would have various people on hand wringing, geroge hook would have said "In my day...." and then we'd switch him off and so forth....

What galls me is that there is hardly any coverage of this in the media bar a small piece in the herald.

This would have been huge if the colours of the skin were reversed.
So clearly it's not racism (or worthy of racism hyperbole) if the victims are white.

K-9 · 09-07-2011 02:20PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

So afraid of being labelled racist, SO AFRAID

I suspect you can't answer that question because that argument hasn't been used on the thread at all, it was just an irrelevant throwaway remark.

Reekwind · 09-07-2011 02:26PM

King of Kings wrote: »

What galls me is that there is hardly any coverage of this in the media bar a small piece in the herald

There are two possibilities here:

1) The national media are engaged in some conspiracy of silence and are uninterested in any racial violence unless the perpetrators are white. It falls to the Herald to break this taboo through their usual standards of journalistic excellence

2) The national media don't give a damn about a fight in Temple Bar last October. Particularly not when the only thing suggesting that it was racially motivated is the word of a Guard. It then falls to the sensationalist Herald to provide a clear black/white interpretation of events

As everyone here knows, this is not particularly rare behaviour in Temple Bar. The only difference in this case being skin colour and the staggering assumption that this automatically introduces a racist angle into the 'story'

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 02:27PM

King of Kings wrote: »

This would have been huge if the colours of the skin were reversed.
So clearly it's not racism (or worthy of racism hyperbole) if the victims are white.

Well, if a bunch of guys attack 5 randomly selected people, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if all 5 of them were white, as white people outnumber black people by a fair margin (10 to 1? 20 to 1? something like that), and are by far the largest ethnic group (or colour, or whatever the PC term is these days), with numbers a multiple of all others combined.

But if a bunch of guys attack 5 random people, the odds would be very much against them attacking 5 black people, or 5 Tibetan people or whatever, so then it would start to look rather like they were being selected based on their race.

Does this make sense?

Vicxas · 09-07-2011 02:31PM

Bloody racists...

I bet you they'll walk free for being a minority.

K-9 · 09-07-2011 02:33PM

The press are too busy naval gazing about the NotW and other stuff. When it comes to trial I've no doubt it will be in all the papers and Myers will no doubt have a good rant about it.

saatana · 09-07-2011 02:35PM

I’ve read through the Herald article several times now, and I have to say I find it very disturbing.

Very disturbing that a so-called journalist, even with the Herald, can write such crap, which is probably to a great extent invented, and certainly greatly embellished and exaggerated.

First of all, he mentioned the Gardai and then “a senior source”, without actually saying that source is a member of the Garda Siochana. The Gardai are usually very reluctant to release details of cases that are either sub judice or about to make their debut in the courts, and when and if they do, the name of the officer who has given the statement is also stated in the article.

Whether or not an offence is racially motivated is a matter for a court of law to determine, not for a police officer. That particular cop is either a figment of the journalist’s imagination, an eejit who should learn to button his lip or, worst of all, on the take and selling quotes to “journalists”.

This kind of reporting by the Herald is likely to be highly inflammatory and harm race relations in this country, in addition to giving welcome ammunition to the army of xenophobes, racists and thicks who are so well represented on this thread.

Perhaps it would be better to wait for the court proceedings to get a more precise picture of what happened. In the meantime, I feel the Garda Commissioner should be looking into which of his subordinates – if any – is feeding the Herald and similar rags the kind of “information” it knows its readers want to hear. And I hope the accused persons’ defence counsel also take note and in court bring up the fact that, according to the Herald, a Garda “source” has always declared them guilty or racism and thereby compromised the fair trial that is guaranteed as their right by both Bunreacht na hEireann and international human rights conventions.

Yahew · 09-07-2011 02:38PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

the time was in a large part blamed on 'institutional racism' in the police force. Here's an example from this country that was in the papers recently.

So - if we can agree that some people are racist, and will interpret events through that filter? - how is not possible that the Garda quoted arrived at his belief via these preconceptions? (if this Garda actually exists, of course)

I have to say your posting on this thread is indicative of a very weak mind. (Still waiting for the full debunking of my post about pinkos.)

Lets be clear:

1) There was an attack by a black gang on whites in Temple Bar.
2) A detective suggests the attack is racist. ( He probably has some information on this - they may have said something racist as they attacked people)

Your conclusion, as far as anybody can make out, is that the detective is racist, not the guys who attacked whites in temple bar. Whitey is always wrong.

At this stage you are the parody of the extreme PC type, which generally is used a a strawman argument. The guy who always blames whitey.

An interesting sample though, of how rotted the brain can be by ideology.

But, utterly obscene, nevertheless.

Stinicker · 09-07-2011 02:38PM

The guys were criminals and I don't think their race really comes into it, a group of guys beating up other people doesn't necessarily make them racists, they could be just normal scumbags who would targeted anyone in their path, if there happened to be African Americans there they could have easily targeted them. If they are convicted and are guilty then they should be deported as we have enough home grown crims here as it is.

Reekwind · 09-07-2011 02:41PM

Yahew wrote: »

At this stage you are the parody of the extreme PC type, which generally is used a a strawman argument. The guy who always blames whitey

Edit: It may be some prior (fleeting, I stress) exposure to Guardian-reading pinkos on my part, but isn't there a contradiction there?

Yahew · 09-07-2011 02:43PM

saatana wrote: »

I’ve read through the Herald article several times now, and I have to say I find it very disturbing.

Very disturbing that a so-called journalist, even with the Herald, can write such crap, which is probably to a great extent invented, and certainly greatly embellished and exaggerated.

First of all, he mentioned the Gardai and then “a senior source”, without actually saying that source is a member of the Garda Siochana. The Gardai are usually very reluctant to release details of cases that are either sub judice or about to make their debut in the courts, and when and if they do, the name of the officer who has given the statement is also stated in the article.

Whether or not an offence is racially motivated is a matter for a court of law to determine, not for a police officer. That particular cop is either a figment of the journalist’s imagination, an eejit who should learn to button his lip or, worst of all, on the take and selling quotes to “journalists”.

This kind of reporting by the Herald is likely to be highly inflammatory and harm race relations in this country, in addition to giving welcome ammunition to the army of xenophobes, racists and thicks who are so well represented on this thread.

Perhaps it would be better to wait for the court proceedings to get a more precise picture of what happened. In the meantime, I feel the Garda Commissioner should be looking into which of his subordinates – if any – is feeding the Herald and similar rags the kind of “information” it knows its readers want to hear. And I hope the accused persons’ defence counsel also take note and in court bring up the fact that, according to the Herald, a Garda “source” has always declared them guilty or racism and thereby compromised the fair trial that is guaranteed as their right by both Bunreacht na hEireann and international human rights conventions.

Yeah, I doubt these equivocations would exist in the opposite direction. The indications these are racially motivate attacks are.

1) The alleged perps are all one colour.
2) The victims are all one colour.
3) There is no indication of robbery.
4) There are, apparently, lots of different victims, unrelated to each other - of the same colour - on the same night.
5) There is no indication of a a previous altercation in a pub, or a row outside a pub. That's standard temple bar stuff. This is targeting of random people ont he street for a reason, which didn't involve theft. Whats the reason? What would Occam say?

Yahew · 09-07-2011 02:45PM

Reekwind wrote: »

There are two possibilities here:

1) The national media are engaged in some conspiracy of silence and are uninterested in any racial violence unless the perpetrators are white. It falls to the Herald to break this taboo through their usual standards of journalistic excellence

2) The national media don't give a damn about a fight in Temple Bar last October. Particularly not when the only thing suggesting that it was racially motivated is the word of a Guard. It then falls to the sensationalist Herald to provide a clear black/white interpretation of events

As everyone here knows, this is not particularly rare behaviour in Temple Bar. The only difference in this case being skin colour and the staggering assumption that this automatically introduces a racist angle into the 'story'

Is it not rare for gangs to attack strangers in temple bar, as opposed to altercations outside pubs, or rows spilling out from a pub. I have never noticed. It must be more dangerous than I experience.

Do you have any evidence of this? Can you provide some?

Yahew · 09-07-2011 02:49PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Edit: It may be some prior (fleeting, I stress) exposure to Guardian-reading pinkos on my part, but isn't there a contradiction there?

No, I think people often create a PC strawman - i.e. people say: nobody would complain were it blacks on whites, or they would blame the whites somehow. That's a strawman because you rarely see it actually said.

MontyBurnz is saying it: he is actually claiming the only obvious racism here is from the detective ( if he exists). Thats ridiculous.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 02:54PM

Yahew wrote: »

I have to say your posting on this thread is indicative of a very weak mind. (Still waiting for the full debunking of my post about pinkos.)

I pointed out a glaring error that you made. You pretended it never happened, so I'm not wasting any more time on it.

Yahew wrote: »

Lets be clear:

1) There was an attack by a black gang on whites in Temple Bar.

Agreed.

Yahew wrote: »

2) A detective suggests the attack is racist. ( He probably has some information on this - they may have said something racist as they attacked people)

Your conclusion, as far as anybody can make out, is that the detective is racist, not the guys who attacked whites in temple bar. Whitey is always wrong.

Wrong. Just wrong. Totally wrong. Try to read my posts again - they are not that complex. Unless you are just setting up a straw man?

Yahew wrote: »

At this stage you are the parody of the extreme PC type, which generally is used a a strawman argument. The guy who always blames whitey.

An interesting sample though, of how rotted the brain can be by ideology.

Ok, a challenge for you: please show where I blamed white people for the attack? And please show where I stated that the (possibly existent) detective is definitely racist?

I know you won't because you can't. So I'll just go ahead and declare myself the victor here.

Yahew wrote: »

But, utterly obscene, nevertheless.

If I may humbly offer a criticism, this seems slightly hysterical. Are you familiar with the expression, 'over egging the omelette'?

Stay classy!

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 02:57PM

Yahew wrote: »

3) There is no indication of robbery.

Oh god. Once again, I suggest you actually read the thread. :rolleyes:

K-9 · 09-07-2011 02:57PM

Yahew wrote: »

Is it not rare for gangs to attack strangers in temple bar, as opposed to altercations outside pubs, or rows spilling out from a pub. I have never noticed. It must be more dangerous than I experience.

Do you have any evidence of this? Can you provide some?

Nope, Makomi posted about it earlier as he has experience of the area as a doorman. Good few white gangs about as well just waiting to pick on random strangers.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 03:00PM

Yahew wrote: »

MontyBurnz is saying it: he is actually claiming the only obvious racism here is from the detective ( if he exists). Thats ridiculous.

Yeah, but you are saying that white people should be entitled to enslave and murder black people and Jewish people as they see fit, and that Mongolian people should be forced to work in salt mines.

Hey, putting ridiculous words in other people's mouths is great fun, and a highly successful debating technique! We should all join Yahew in this new method of discourse!

Race hate gang in Temple Bar orgy of violence [mod note #1]

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