Race hate gang in Temple Bar orgy of violence [mod note #1]

ascanbe · 09-07-2011 01:57AM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Europe consists of 50 countries, the vast majority of these having no former colonial empires, yet you think its okay to just lump a whole varied continent together with incredibly different cultures and histories and speak of the "European" colonisation of Africa?

Not all Europeans are residents of a former colonial power, but everyone born in Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia etc is African. You have no problem making a generalisation which is not strictly speaking correct yet you have a problem making a generalisation which is undeniably correct.

Do you take issue with African-Americans who identify themselves as such? Are they being too general and should correctly identify themselves as Angolan-Americans, Sudanese-Americans, Kenyan-Americans? Do you correct them and explain how it is wrong of them to lump Algerian, Tunisian, Sudanse, Kenyan and Egyptian into one broad term?

African-Americans, for the most part, can't, due to the nature of the slave-trade, lack of documentation and the fact that many of the countries that now exist within Africa did not exist when their ancestors were taken captive, pin-point exactly where in Africa their ancestors originated nor claim any particular country in Africa, as it's now constituted, as their ancesteral home.
Compare like with like, if you're trying to make a point.

Pompey Magnus · 09-07-2011 02:00AM

ascanbe wrote: »

African-Americans, for the most part, can't, due to the nature of the slave-trade, lack of documentation and the fact that many of the countries that now exist within Africa did not exist when their ancestors were taken captive, pin-point exactly where in Africa their ancestors originated nor claim any particular country in Africa, as it's now constituted, as their ancesteral home.
Compare like with like, if you're trying to make a point.

So if the journalist in the original article was not provided with the specific countries of birth of the guys who made the attacks you would have no problem with him referring to them as "African" I assume?

Pompey Magnus · 09-07-2011 02:04AM

ascanbe wrote: »

African-Americans, for the most part, can't, due to the nature of the slave-trade, lack of documentation and the fact that many of the countries that now exist within Africa did not exist when their ancestors were taken captive, pin-point exactly where in Africa their ancestors originated nor claim any particular country in Africa, as it's now constituted, as their ancesteral home.
Compare like with like, if you're trying to make a point.

Also, why should they use the term "African" at all at that rate? If Africa is such a varied place with so many different peoples why do African Americans not have any problem with identifying themselves "Africa". The reason must be they feel there is such a thing as an African identity otherwise they wouldn't bother.

ascanbe · 09-07-2011 02:06AM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Well that is what I am getting at, when I hear someone refer to European colonisation I have the cop-on to realise they are using the word "European" for convenience as most people don't want to give a full history and geography lesson when talking about the subject. I know they are usually referring to just specific countries within Europe. So too when the article in the OP refers to the culprits being "African", I have the cop on to know that the journalist wasn't implying Africa is one big border-less area where everyone is alike, its just a convenient title.

That said of course there are some people with agendas who try to hijack these terms and so they do use the term "African" to negatively tar all Africans with the same brush or on the other side who use the term "European" to make us feel in some way responsible for the wrongs of Imperial powers who also happened to be European even though we were actually victims of their expansion ourselves.

I get what you're saying. But using the term European, in any context, doesn't have the same broad brush-stroke connotations as using the term African as a catch-all when describing a gang of f*ckers like this, in terms of the possible impact it may have on anyone who just happens to originate from the continent and is now living in a small country like this.
Having said that, i, at first, didn't balk at the description of this gang as an 'African' gang; but i can certainly understand those making the point that it's a tad unfair to law-abiding citizens living in this country whose origins happen to be in that continent.

ascanbe · 09-07-2011 02:16AM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Also, why should they use the term "African" at all at that rate? If Africa is such a varied place with so many different peoples why do African Americans not have any problem with identifying themselves "Africa". The reason must be they feel there is such a thing as an African identity otherwise they wouldn't bother.

I guess that the leading 'African-Americans', around the time the civil-rights movement was taking shape, simply wanted to coalesce as a group and be regarded as an interest group, the same as 'Irish-Americans', for example, in order to 're-brand' themselves, to certain extent, as something that could be defined as more than their simply being a colour, black, or a 'race', negroes, etc.

ascanbe · 09-07-2011 02:32AM

mikemac wrote: »

I don't know why you're quoting me.

I never called anyone scum, I called them criminals as that is what anyone in prison is.

Where did I post I held Irish criminals in greater admiration than non nationals?

It's just generally when an outsider is introduced to a tough prison system, beatings happen. And by outsider it doesn't even have to be a different country, my examples were Dublin and Cork and you're posting "native-born".

Hey, I even posted they better hope the five are put together so they back each other up. But they will get hassle and abuse, prison is a rough place. Should have thought of that before handing out beatings of their own to the public

Sorry. Thought i recognised you as a poster who normally comes down like a ton of bricks and use's no uncertain language regarding anyone who flouts the law of the land. My apologies.

Disleksic · 09-07-2011 02:39AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's baffling, the mods are jumping down throats and acting in bizarrely repressive ways on other forums, and here it seems any sort of Nazi drivel is acceptable?

Please Google "Godwin's Law".

AskMyChocolate · 09-07-2011 03:14AM

amacachi wrote: »

This country is a sham tbh, ever seen how few murder convictions there are? Then because of that it's hard to prosecute what is a genuine manslaughter case since manslaughter covers what should be murder which trickles down to everything including attempted murder and assaults.

EDIT: There's another great one the yanks have, not sure how many states have it though but it's "Assault by pointing." :pac:

Link?

It's just I have a few mates who are brickies who were thinking of heading over looking for work.

General General · 09-07-2011 03:21AM

Disleksic wrote: »

Please Google "Godwin's Law".

All of 11 posts & handing out a 'Please Google "Godwin's Law"'?

mikedone · 09-07-2011 04:02AM

7Sins wrote: »

Yea of course they're Irish citizen if they were born here....he didn't say citizens, he implied they're not Irish and they're not Irish. They're African(or some country in said Africa) Irish if anything, certainly not Irish.

So at what point does someone become Irish, third, fourth, fifth generation? Please don't say when they begin to respect the laws of the land because that would disqualify a heck of a lot of "real" Irish.
Again, I am not condoning their behavior which was as I said earlier despicable and I believe that they should face the full rigor of the law as should any other citizen who chooses to behave in this manner.

saatana · 09-07-2011 08:10AM

Reading through the comments on here, I’m amazed at the sheer amount of tarring everyone with the same brush that is going on. Just because five or six black-skinned young men behave violently, there are calls for gruesome public executions, mass sterilisations and generally contempt for a billion or so people in Africa. They should certainly be brought to justice and, if convicted, punished, but any punishment that would not be given to a white-skinned Irish person who commits the same crime is completely over the top. And those who argue otherwise are racist, pure and simple. Racism is hating in the plural, and those who do that are usually pig-ignorant and probably no great gift to humankind themselves.

How many of you would feel if all Irish people were treated with contempt and suspicion because of the despicable actions of a few of us? How many would like to be automatically regarded as dirty people, who have no respect for other’s property, who trick people and abuse their kindness to rob them?

A couple of years ago I met an elderly Finnish lady on a holiday trip to Corfu. She speaks very little English, but good German, so we could communicate and have been e-mailing since then. She says she’d like to visit Ireland one day. Now she just sent me a couple of e-mails about Irish people in the news in her country. The first concerns some holidaymakers, about 30 cars and caravans of them, who did not use official camping sites, but instead took over a garden allotments area (where people also build little cabins) in Helsinki. They made a terrible mess and refused to vacate when asked to do so by the city authorities. The assistance of the police was requested and they gave the Irish holidaymakers a time by which to depart. When they did not comply, the police returned, fined them for recalcitrance and forcibly removed them. The city is now cleaning up the “Saustall” (pigsty) that the Irish visitors left. There is no information on where they went.

She also informs me that today’s newspaper reports a warning by the Finnish police about persons with vehicles bearing Irish registration plates. It seems they have been calling to people’s houses and offering to do roof or ceiling painting jobs, fence mending and things like that. Soon after they start the work, they request part-payment to buy paint or materials and then vanish.

With some of us behaving so despicably, shouldn’t we hope that not everyone in the world will be as quick to brand all Irish with the same brush as some of us are all too eager to do to others?

wolf moon · 09-07-2011 08:31AM

KeithM89 wrote: »

Banned

sweet. If we could only end the double standards on boards.ie and apply the same rule to everyone who sends the others "home".

the guys did a very bad thing and as every other human beings should be judged, sentenced and punished. it is surprising how many posts in this thread relates to the skin colour rather than to the act of violence itself.

Killer Pigeon · 09-07-2011 09:21AM

I don't care if these guys are black, white, brown or yellow, deport them to wherever they came from!!!

Absolutely sickening. Racists are the lowest of the low. What saddens me is that Irish people have rarely been so violent towards immigrants. They had no reason to attack.

I have sympathy at this time for the black community in Ireland, especially if these thugs continued what they're doing as they're only going to re-enforce racial stereotypes and hate.

Ireland doesn't want pathetic racial conflict! We want all people who have arrived on these shores to integrate into the local population and become productive members of this society. Fractionalising society only creates division.

People who resort to race hate and race pride are only people who don't have anything else to be proud of; they want to justify their existence because of their race. All racists and racial groups are like this.

Be proud of what you yourself have accomplished in life, not what other people of your race have done.

Degsy · 09-07-2011 09:52AM

wolf moon wrote: »

it is surprising how many posts in this thread relates to the skin colour rather than to the act of violence itself.

Its relevant becasue the attacks themselves were racially motivated..they attacked white people for being white.

gbee · 09-07-2011 09:57AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Ireland doesn't want pathetic racial conflict! We want all people who have arrived on these shores to integrate into the local population and become productive members of this society. Fractionalising society only creates division..

YOU want. Ireland Wants: See a problem here the big, big problem is THEY do not want to integrate.

Now there are certainly individual families who appreciate their new life here and would not want to swap it for anything ~ fine these people just get on with life and so soon their colour disappears.

Unfortunately there are large populations from other ethnic groups who do not want to integrate, and many have been 'dumped' on us in Ireland having been expelled from other EU countries, we've become a depository for the most disaffected so the seeds of race rioting have long since been set and local Councillor's comments about colouring your face black if you want a house, have not helped either.

But the problem is a substantial majority have no intention of integrating ~ battle lines have been drawn.

Killer Pigeon · 09-07-2011 10:07AM

gbee wrote: »

YOU want. Ireland Wants: See a problem here the big, big problem is THEY do not want to integrate.

Maybe you should read back on what I said. I said Ireland wants immigrants (in general) to integrate and be productive members of society - would you not agree with this? I'm not asserting what they want. All we can do is encourage legal immigrants to integrate if they come here - if they commit crime and they are not Irish citizens then they should be deported. Simple. If you did read my previous post correctly then you're sweeping all immigrants into the same corner by saying "THEY do no want to integrate" - if indeed by "THEY" you mean all immigrants.

pickarooney · 09-07-2011 10:13AM

KINGVictor wrote: »

I dont know but as far as I am aware, the nationalities of members of this 'gang' has not been made known yet, so they are been referred to as Africans because they are all black.

That's a bit disingenuous KV. You read the same article where it mentioned that one of the suspects' mothers had a conviction for trafficking children out of Nigeria so they obviously know enough about at least one member to ascertain his nationality. Gangs are generally made up of people from the same background. If the rest of the gang were known to be Nigerian would it sit badly with people reading it that their nationality was mentoned?

I find it hard myself to imagine that if there was a European gang causing trouble in Saigon or San Francisco how that would concern or reflect on me or any other European.

gbee · 09-07-2011 10:25AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

- if indeed by "THEY" you mean all immigrants.

Immigrants have come from several sources, the opening of the EU; Conflict Refugees; Economic Refugees; Human Trafficking; Political Ethnic Cleansing; Expulsion of undesirables; Workforce Migration; desired destination migration and the Good Friday Agreement [article now rescinded].

So we have perhaps one question to ask; of ALL the migrants who arrived here, how many actively chose to come here? OK so I will omit all those who honestly answer that hey did choose to come to Ireland and either paid their way or had their employer pay their way, those aside, I think all the rest qualify for THEY.

EarlERizer · 09-07-2011 11:19AM

We have learnt nothing in the 43 years since our nearest neighbours were provoked by this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7fETsKYkA

They themselves are still trying to find ways to integrate communities the lenght & bredth of the nation.

Will we only take notice when 'race riots' become common place here? will the softly softly nicely nicely PC brigade still bang on about the rights of 'poor ethnic minorities' when communities here are torn apart and destroyed by one of these so called race riots?

There is every chance with this incident turning into a defining moment in the future of race relations in this county (of not the country)

Lets say this gang of young Black men of Nigerian descent are taken before the courts and cry "racism" as a defence, because of eye witness testimony,victim testimony and a judge & jury using common sense they fail to play the 'race card' defence to their advantage and are convicted.Justice is served and a message goes out that we will not tolerate this behaviour on our streets by anyone!

another scenario,they play the 'race card' defence and get off thanks to people's fears of not wanting to be seen to be racially discriminative in judgements, a gang of thugs walk free,justice fails, and bitterness on the part of the victims ensues,people cry "if it had been the other way round",people are angry with the outcome and in a fit of rage or in reaction ,someone goes and beats up one of the gang....they get arrested,charged,before the courts and are found guilty .... and there's the blue torch paper been ignited!

Sounds extreme? well just go ask the people of Bradford, Leed's,Birmingham etc who have bore witness to these very scenario's and how they escalate over the last 40+ years.

I don't know Enoch Powell's persuasion regarding race,ethnicity,religion,sex etc etc but I do appreciate the warning message he was trying to express to the people of the UK.

Governments & their systems are flawed, the imigration into Ireland over the last 15+ years has been handled (or mis-handled) woefully,it has fed into peoples misguided fears and allowed for the 'race card' to be used illegitimately which in itself sad as it distorts thinking where there are grounds for legitimate racial issue's.

No matter who you are,where you are from,where you go in life the onus is on you as an individual to carry yourself in accordance to the law of whatever place you decide to call 'home' and not expect to have things altered or changed to accomodate you.

In this day & age we should be all able to live & work as a civilised society whilst removing those who see fit to disrupt it through their negative actions.We should also be able to have faith in those in power to act accordingly.

Humanity is Fundamental!

p.s. Great to hear the DJ made a full recovery and is back doing his thing!, I was disgusted to read earlier comments regarding this victim, I presume it was misplaced juvenile humour.

Killer Pigeon · 09-07-2011 12:05PM

gbee wrote: »

Immigrants have come from several sources, the opening of the EU; Conflict Refugees; Economic Refugees; Human Trafficking; Political Ethnic Cleansing; Expulsion of undesirables; Workforce Migration; desired destination migration and the Good Friday Agreement [article now rescinded].

So we have perhaps one question to ask; of ALL the migrants who arrived here, how many actively chose to come here? OK so I will omit all those who honestly answer that hey did choose to come to Ireland and either paid their way or had their employer pay their way, those aside, I think all the rest qualify for THEY.

But you can't speak for all of "THEM" can you? You are not "THEM". You cannot say exactly how "THEY" think "THEY" want to live "THEIR" lives in Ireland, can you?

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 12:11PM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Europe consists of 50 countries, the vast majority of these having no former colonial empires, yet you think its okay to just lump a whole varied continent together with incredibly different cultures and histories and speak of the "European" colonisation of Africa?

Yes. Almost every Western European country, and every European power, was involved in colonialism. The colonisation was European in character, rather than specifically English, or French, or Dutch, or Portuguese, or Spanish, or Italian, or German, or Belgian, or whatever.

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Not all Europeans are residents of a former colonial power, but everyone born in Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia etc is African. You have no problem making a generalisation which is not strictly speaking correct yet you have a problem making a generalisation which is undeniably correct.

You have this arseways. Why speak about Nigerians, as 'Africans' when we already have a specific, accurate term for them? Conversely, do you have a general term that covers the Spanish, the Belgians, the Germans, the British, the Italians, the Dutch and the French, as a group, other than 'European'?

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Do you take issue with African-Americans who identify themselves as such?

Not especially. It may astonish you to learn that the descendents of slaves taken from Africa are not always certain which part of Africa their ancestors came from, if their ancestry even is derived from a single part of the continent. For some odd reason, keeping accurate family trees for their slaves was not a high priority for slave traders and owners. Did you honestly not see where you had gone wrong as you typed that?

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Are they being too general and should correctly identify themselves as Angolan-Americans, Sudanese-Americans, Kenyan-Americans? Do you correct them and explain how it is wrong of them to lump Algerian, Tunisian, Sudanse, Kenyan and Egyptian into one broad term?

Oh, apparently not.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 12:15PM

Disleksic wrote: »

Please Google "Godwin's Law".

So exhortations to deport all members of a particular ethnic group has no connotations of Nazism for you?

Please Google 'history'.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 12:20PM

Degsy wrote: »

Its relevant becasue the attacks themselves were racially motivated..they attacked white people for being white.

Any evidence at all? Any?

Weren't you the guy who claimed that Stephen Lawrence was 'probably killed by blacks', even as two white guys are in court charged with his murder?

It's not impossible that the attacks were racially motivated - but I'll wait for the evidence.

wolf moon · 09-07-2011 12:48PM

Degsy wrote: »

Its relevant becasue the attacks themselves were racially motivated..they attacked white people for being white.

in fairness it's not really relevant to me, because i don't care who's black, pink or yellow. talking primarily about the skin colour makes us the same as the guys, doesn't it? they're humans who committed terrible crime in a first place.
whatever story lies beyond, whether it's racism, drugs, mental ilness doesn't change the fact that they have to pay for evil they made. can't remember referring to the lads who murdered the two polish blokes with screwdrivers as "white", "irish" or "europeans" but purely "scumbags" or "murderers". wasn't that racially motivated as well? same rule should be applied here me thinks.

suicide_circus · 09-07-2011 01:19PM

White gang attacks black people = mindless racism.

Black gang attack white people = understandable reaction to colonial past. Sure probably not motivated by race at all.

sollar · 09-07-2011 01:20PM

wolf moon wrote: »

in fairness it's not really relevant to me, because i don't care who's black, pink or yellow. talking primarily about the skin colour makes us the same as the guys, doesn't it? they're humans who committed terrible crime in a first place.
whatever story lies beyond, whether it's racism, drugs, mental ilness doesn't change the fact that they have to pay for evil they made. can't remember referring to the lads who murdered the two polish blokes with screwdrivers as "white", "irish" or "europeans" but purely "scumbags" or "murderers". wasn't that racially motivated as well? same rule should be applied here me thinks.

You completely miss the point. Skin colour is relevant here because it was a racist attack by one skin colour against another.

suicide_circus · 09-07-2011 01:21PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Any evidence at all? Any?

Weren't you the guy who claimed that Stephen Lawrence was 'probably killed by blacks', even as two white guys are in court charged with his murder?

It's not impossible that the attacks were racially motivated - but I'll wait for the evidence.

If the colours were reversed I'm pretty sure you wouldnt need to wait for the evidence.

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 01:25PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Black gang attack white people = understandable reaction to colonial past.

I think you are on your own arguing this, but good luck with it. Let's hear your argument then...

Monty Burnz · 09-07-2011 01:27PM

sollar wrote: »

You completely miss the point. Skin colour is relevant here because it was a racist attack by one skin colour against another.

Is this a foregone conclusion now? I must have missed where this was established as fact.

mikemac · 09-07-2011 01:33PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Is this a foregone conclusion now? I must have missed where this was established as fact.

A senior garda stated it and detectives are involved

Sources say that even seasoned detectives were left "horrified and shocked" by the extreme level of violence used in the attacks which occurred in the Eustace Street and Curved Street areas of Temple Bar at around 3.30am on the date in question.

A senior source explained: "We believe that what happened on the night was motivated by racism -- that is racism against white people.

Unless the Herald invented that quote, they aren't known for quality journalism.

And the thugs themselves wanted to bring race into it

"When the suspects were first questioned they tried to use racism as a defence -- they tried to say that they had been racially abused by the victims for being black.

They can play the race card but it's wrong of any of us to think it was a racist attack?

Race hate gang in Temple Bar orgy of violence [mod note #1]

Comments