Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Amazotheamazing · 18-06-2011 2:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Leamy has feet for hands, and a time bomb for a brain. I wouldn't have him mending socks in the trenches with me until he sorts his head out.

This simply isn't true.

Leamy is one of those players who was overhyped when he came through and after bad injuries he's now under-appreciated. He's had a good season for a guy coming back from two awful injuries, not a great season maybe, but easily good enough to get into the Irish squad.

People think he's just brute force but youtube his crossfield kick for Mafi's try against Ulster in Thomond this year. Inch perfect to Warwick (iirc) on the wing.

Still though, I know how he these threads go,
Poster A:"X" is a totally crap player, "Y" is a godlike genius...
Poster B: What do you mean, "X" is the incarnation of Kalki, the destroyer of worlds, "Y" is a complete fake.
Poster A: "Y" is actually Thor come to smite the non-believers before leading us to Valhalla. X on the otherhand is a joker....

jolley123 · 18-06-2011 2:32pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

This simply isn't true.

Leamy is one of those players who was overhyped when he came through and after bad injuries he's now under-appreciated. He's had a good season for a guy coming back from two awful injuries, not a great season maybe, but easily good enough to get into the Irish squad.

People think he's just brute force but youtube his crossfield kick for Mafi's try against Ulster in Thomond this year. Inch perfect to Warwick (iirc) on the wing.

Still though, I know how he these threads go,
Poster A:"X" is a totally crap player, "Y" is a godlike genius...
Poster B: What do you mean, "X" is the incarnation of Kalki, the destroyer of worlds, "Y" is a complete fake.
Poster A: "Y" is actually Thor come to smite the non-believers before leading us to Valhalla. X on the otherhand is a joker....

I just don't see the benefit of bringing him. He doesn't add anything to the squad. He's just a weaker version of the ball-carriers we already have. Added on to that, he's prone to giving away stupid penalties, which is something this team is trying to cut out. The only reason you would bring Leamy is because of experience, which would be an absolutely pathetic reason.

Who would I take instead? Well, with Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien and Wallace, that's enough ball-carriers. So I would take someone who offers a new perspective. Jennings offers that, with his work at the break-down.

Because he's like Zeus.

Amazotheamazing · 18-06-2011 2:47pm

jolley123 wrote: »

I just don't see the benefit of bringing him. He doesn't add anything to the squad. He's just a weaker version of the ball-carriers we already have. Added on to that, he's prone to giving away stupid penalties, which is something this team is trying to cut out. The only reason you would bring Leamy is because of experience, which would be an absolutely pathetic reason.

Who would I take instead? Well, with Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien and Wallace, that's enough ball-carriers. So I would take someone who offers a new perspective. Jennings offers that, with his work at the break-down.

Because he's like Zeus.

There's always going to be backrow players with merits left behind, whether it's Leamy, Muldoon, McLaughlin, Wilson or Jennings. That's just how it is.

Jennings does offer something different but by the same token, what he offers doesn't seem to be something Ireland, rightly or wrongly, feel like using. To bring Jennings would be to be planning playing a different style of rugby, I can't see Kidney doing that. I also think Kidney will factor in the probable chances of Ferris getting injured, which will make him bring another 6 type player on the assumption that SOB covers 7 (something I don't think he's as good as Jennings at).

Cpt_Blackbeard · 18-06-2011 2:53pm

jolley123 wrote: »

I just don't see the benefit of bringing him.

The original argument was that Muldoon is a better 6 and should be ahead of Leamy in the Irish pecking order.

Regarding Leamy's handling: He actually had very high offload stats according to some Opta Index stats that I've quoted before. (I'm looking for them now, to no avail :mad:). He should only travel if Ferris doesn't.

Amazotheamazing · 18-06-2011 3:32pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The original argument was that Muldoon is a better 6 and should be ahead of Leamy in the Irish pecking order.

Regarding Leamy's handling: He actually had very high offload stats according to some Opta Index stats that I've quoted before. (I'm looking for them now, to no avail :mad:). He should only travel if Ferris doesn't.

"For Munster, Denis Leamy has amassed the most AOI points so far. The
number eight’s overall score of 1,416 ranks him as the 11th best player in
Europe with 524 of these coming in defence. In attack he has made 64 carries
for a total gain of 144 metres, he has also made an impressive nine offloads so
far, only seven players have made more. In defence he has managed to make
47 tackles and has missed just three. His score has also been boosted by five
lineout wins"
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/statistics/amlin_opta_index.php

It's worth remembering these stats are from games where Munster were losing the breakdown, not a team on top. To have those stats in a pack going badly is very impressive but haters gonna hate.

18-06-2011 3:37pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

"For Munster, Denis Leamy has amassed the most AOI points so far. The
number eight’s overall score of 1,416 ranks him as the 11th best player in
Europe with 524 of these coming in defence. In attack he has made 64 carries
for a total gain of 144 metres, he has also made an impressive nine offloads so
far, only seven players have made more. In defence he has managed to make
47 tackles and has missed just three. His score has also been boosted by five
lineout wins"
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/statistics/amlin_opta_index.php

It's worth remembering these stats are from games where Munster were losing the breakdown, not a team on top. To have those stats in a pack going badly is very impressive but haters gonna hate.

thats all well and good, but as a player who's an out and out 6, and has been damn good at it, benching behind a second row-cum back rower tells a lot more about where Leamy is at these days than any of the statistics.

Amazotheamazing · 18-06-2011 3:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

thats all well and good, but as a player who's an out and out 6, and has been damn good at it, benching behind a second row-cum back rower tells a lot more about where Leamy is at these days than any of the statistics.

The easy option was to admit you were incorrect about his handling and his form. Fwiw, I thought Donncha Ryan was class in the last few games.

18-06-2011 4:01pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The easy option was to admit you were incorrect about his handling and his form. Fwiw, I thought Donncha Ryan was class in the last few games.

What are you talking about? My opinion, which is shared by others is that Leamy has poor hands and has had easily his worst professional season, culminating in appearances off the bench behind a second row. If he'd been having a decent season then there's no chance that Donnacha Ryan would've even had a chance to take the jersey from him.

The season's problems started for him when he was moved to 8 and Coghlan played at 6, a swap I think most people would agree made next to no sense as both of them wanted the other's jersey.

Handing someone like Leamy the Captaincy role also was extremely detrimental to his game. He's supposed to be the dog, not the person holding the leash. His best games have always come when he's only a step away from trouble at every ruck. When he was the Captain, he wasn't allowed do any of this.

His headlessness has always been an issue, he makes poor decisions under pressure at vital times, and had been grinding this out of his game for the last 3 or 4 seasons and had been doing well. However this season has seen a return of the old Dennis, making bad calls, talking back to referees, giving away stupid penalties etc.

I'm a big Leamy fan, but this hasn't been his season. Not by a long shot.

roycon · 18-06-2011 4:01pm

leamys main fault is his decision making. hes got all the individual elements to make a good player. ok sometimes he decides to carry the ball with one hand or give away stupid penalties but hes strong in all areas. he's essentially the opposite of anthony foley who he was seen as replacing.foley wasnt really outstandingly talented in my opinion. he just never ever made a bad decision. always seemed to be in the right place at the right time doing the right thing

yimrsg · 18-06-2011 4:12pm

Leamy has done well based on those stats but he's never far from gifting the opposition penalties. You can say he's wonderful at x and y but the fact is this season he's made some stupid errors, the extra 10 metres for talking back to the ref, coming off the bench against Scotland in the 6 nations and nearly immediately giving away soft penalty, which I think turned into 3 points.

If he didn't have these momentary aberrations then I'd welcome him in to the squad as it is he's possibly going to cost us penalties whenever he comes on and since Ireland are so poor at closing out games from winning positions I think that someone with a cooler head is better suited for the bench role and closing out tight games.

It's unfortunate that I think these things and not see past them to the good in him but to me he's still hotheaded and I wouldn't want him coming off the bench against Australia with Ireland leading by a couple of points with 10 minutes left.

theboss80 · 18-06-2011 4:53pm

Does anybody have any word on what Kearney is doing? Has he found a club at all now?

GerM · 18-06-2011 5:33pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

he has also made an impressive nine offloads so far

Ah, they're just passes that butter fingers couldn't hold onto, not offloads.
:pac:

WeeBushy · 18-06-2011 6:08pm

theboss80 wrote: »

Does anybody have any word on what Kearney is doing? Has he found a club at all now?

Haven't heard any more myself. I've said it before, in this thread I think, that I don't see why any club would take him.

Edit: It was in the Leinster Thread. The first bit is in response to someone saying he was possibly going to the Stormers just to train:

No idea why he would do that. Surely the Irish squad will be training together during the summer, which would be more beneficial for him to be at than training with a bunch of strangers.

Can't see why the Stormers would take him at all tbh. He hasn't played in a very long time so form is unknown, and would only be there for ~ 3 games and then off again. From their point of view he swans in and takes a place from a squad player who has given their all for the season. It would be more beneficial to play a youngster if they need the cover for 3 games than a foreign import whose coming back from injury.

I know if the roles were reversed I wouldn't be happy with a SH player coming up to get game time with Leinster for 3 games before heading off again.

twinytwo · 19-06-2011 10:33am

jolley123 wrote: »

SOB would probably fill in at 8 if Jamie was injured. Most 6s and 8s will tell you that they find both positions similar with 8 offering more chances to carry off the base of the scrum. SOB actually played some of his best rugby at 8 this year. Actually both Brent Pope and Costello think SOB should be 8 for the WC, and Heaslip should be 6. It's an interesting idea, but pretty pointless. Although I guess SOB and Jamie could vary it up in the scrums throughout a game, like they did against Clermont.

Either way, I can't see Wilson or Coughlan getting a call-up. Kidney would put SOB and Leamy ahead of both of them.

its not really though.. SOB is our best and most destructive ball carrier.. You win by playing to your strengths which means we need him on the ball as much as possible. Plus if you have him coming off the scrum teams will have to shorter their defensive line which will leave space outside

totallegend · 19-06-2011 10:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm a big Leamy fan, but this hasn't been his season. Not by a long shot.

100%. The fact that, he is behind both Ryan and Coughlan, neither of whom are world-beaters, in the Munster pecking order speaks volumes about his form this season. If form has any bearing on selection, Leamy should not go, but the importance of Kidney's loyalty to established players cannot be overstated.

GerM · 19-06-2011 10:59am

twinytwo wrote: »

its not really though.. SOB is our best and most destructive ball carrier.. You win by playing to your strengths which means we need him on the ball as much as possible. Plus if you have him coming off the scrum teams will have to shorter their defensive line which will leave space outside

The relatively small gains made in terms of ball carrying with SOB instead of JH at 8 are far outweighed by the losses of giving up all the intelligence, control and handling skills that Heaslip provides at 8. The great no. 8 players in this world have a lot more subtlety and skill to their games than just boshing through someone off the base of the scrum.

SOB's strength in ball carrying lies in mis-matches in open play and attacking a weak shoulder. His carrying off the base doesn't tend to be nearly as destructive. It's a set play so opposition defences can line up accordingly, hiding the weak links and the likes of Pocock will be looking to break off immediately and take him out. Far too one dimensional as an option off the back of the scrum for me. Taking one of the best no.8s in the world and swapping him with one of the best blindside flankers around makes no sense.

pajunior · 19-06-2011 2:08pm

GerM wrote: »

The relatively small gains made in terms of ball carrying with SOB instead of JH at 8 are far outweighed by the losses of giving up all the intelligence, control and handling skills that Heaslip provides at 8. The great no. 8 players in this world have a lot more subtlety and skill to their games than just boshing through someone off the base of the scrum.

SOB's strength in ball carrying lies in mis-matches in open play and attacking a weak shoulder. His carrying off the base doesn't tend to be nearly as destructive. It's a set play so opposition defences can line up accordingly, hiding the weak links and the likes of Pocock will be looking to break off immediately and take him out. Far too one dimensional as an option off the back of the scrum for me. Taking one of the best no.8s in the world and swapping him with one of the best blindside flankers around makes no sense.

+1 Only point that needs to be made in that argument.

mty92 · 19-06-2011 9:45pm

No one ever seems to mention how world class David Wallace is, in his mid-thirties and still going fairly strong. In his prime he was the best flanker in Europe and just behind Mccaw in the world and better than Sean O'Brien or Jamie Heislip which is saying something. Remember those few years that nob Eddie O'Sullivan never played him!

Ireland have good enough team to win the world cup, lets hope we prepare the right mentality!

danthefan · 19-06-2011 9:57pm

He's a completely different player to McCaw.

As for nobody mentioning how good he is, are you joking?

GerM · 19-06-2011 10:03pm

mty92 wrote: »

No one ever seems to mention how world class David Wallace is, in his mid-thirties and still going fairly strong. In his prime he was the best flanker in Europe and just behind Mccaw in the world and better than Sean O'Brien or Jamie Heislip which is saying something. Remember those few years that nob Eddie O'Sullivan never played him!

People don't mention him as much as he's just part of the furniture but everyone realises his qualities. It's a given that he's a class act. I think you're overstating his case though. He has had some significant blips in form in the last year or two and doesn't match the consistency of previous seasons. McCaw is well out on his own and Wallace was never just behind him. He was the best openside in Ireland and the UK at his peak and is probably the most consistent Irish performer over the past 7 years though along with BOD. I would say Heaslip and Wallace at his peak are about equal. SOB has to perform to a high level for another year or two before he's in that bracket as a truly great player. The season after the great breakthrough is the one that will determine how good he really is. Will he be able to show up to the same extent when he's a marked man?

danthefan · 19-06-2011 10:11pm

GerM wrote: »

People don't mention him as much as he's just part of the furniture but everyone realises his qualities. It's a given that he's a class act. I think you're overstating his case though. He has had some significant blips in form in the last year or two and doesn't match the consistency of previous seasons. McCaw is well out on his own and Wallace was never just behind him. He was the best openside in Ireland and the UK at his peak and is probably the most consistent Irish performer over the past 7 years though along with BOD. I would say Heaslip and Wallace at his peak are about equal. SOB has to perform to a high level for another year or two before he's in that bracket as a truly great player. The season after the great breakthrough is the one that will determine how good he really is. Will he be able to show up to the same extent when he's a marked man?

Do you reckon he was better than Back? His peak possibly came after Back retired but Back was a brilliant player, and Hill/Back/Dallaglio was one of the best backrows of the professional era imo.

GerM · 19-06-2011 10:43pm

danthefan wrote: »

Do you reckon he was better than Back? His peak possibly came after Back retired but Back was a brilliant player, and Hill/Back/Dallaglio was one of the best backrows of the professional era imo.

Hard to say as their respective peaks didn't coincide and they're very different players. I think Back was a cut above as a player though personally. Like Wallace, he was a physical phenomenon but I think he displayed a greater consistency throughout his career. Being a test Lion on 3 consecutive tours and international mainstay for so long is proof of his longevity and consistency. After Wallace initially roared onto the scene, his performance levels dipped (admittedly, coincided with injury) and Keith Gleeson deservedly became Ireland's first choice openside for a couple of years. I find it all the more impressive that Back was able to seamlessly go from the amateur to the professional era.

danthefan · 19-06-2011 10:47pm

GerM wrote: »

Hard to say as their respective peaks didn't coincide and they're very different players. I think Back was a cut above as a player though personally. Like Wallace, he was a physical phenomenon but I think he displayed a greater consistency throughout his career. Being a test Lion on 3 consecutive tours and international mainstay for so long is proof of his longevity and consistency. After Wallace initially roared onto the scene, his performance levels dipped (admittedly, coincided with injury) and Keith Gleeson deservedly became Ireland's first choice openside for a couple of years. I find it all the more impressive that Back was able to seamlessly go from the amateur to the professional era.

With the greatest of respect to back he had no business being on that 2005 tour, obviously that's down to Woodward though. Would agree with you overall though.

bamboozle · 20-06-2011 8:36am

danthefan wrote: »

Do you reckon he was better than Back? His peak possibly came after Back retired but Back was a brilliant player, and Hill/Back/Dallaglio was one of the best backrows of the professional era imo.

I'd have taken a fit Gleeson ahead of Wallace any day at 7 for Ireland, i'd also rate Martin Williams as a far better openside to Wallace, I think its a great pity Wallace's didnt feature more at 8 which to me is the best position to exploit his main strength of ball carrying.

keane2097 · 20-06-2011 12:33pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Jennings does offer something different but by the same token, what he offers doesn't seem to be something Ireland, rightly or wrongly, feel like using. To bring Jennings would be to be planning playing a different style of rugby, I can't see Kidney doing that.

Would you mind expanding on that?

Anyone else that can explain what Amazo means here as well please do (genuine question - wouldn't be the most knowledgeable on the tactical intricacies of RU)

CatFromHue · 20-06-2011 12:42pm

I presume what amazo means is that Jennings would be more of a link man or groundhog in the rucks whereas Wallace would be more of a ball carrier. Sterotypically speaking that is.

keane2097 · 20-06-2011 12:43pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I presume what amazo means is that Jennings would be more of a link man or groundhog in the rucks whereas Wallace would be more of a ball carrier. Sterotypically speaking that is.

So the "different style" is that a Jennings type would be more suited to playing a more expansive game, slinging the ball out wide sort of thing?

totallegend · 20-06-2011 12:49pm

keane2097 wrote: »

So the "different style" is that a Jennings type would be more suited to playing a more expansive game, slinging the ball out wide sort of thing?

Essentially yes; Jennings wouldn't be renowned as a big ball-carrier but is excellent at turnovers in rucks and is great for moving the ball quickly from the forwards to the backs.

The argument (rightly or wrongly) is that with Heaslip at 8 and either Ferris or O'Brien at 6, we have more than enough capacity in the back-row for carrying the ball and bringing Jennings in at 7 would give more balance, seeing as Wallace's main strength is also his ball-carrying ability.

In a million years, Kidney is never going to put out a team without Wallace, so it's a moot point.

20-06-2011 12:52pm

keane2097 wrote: »

So the "different style" is that a Jennings type would be more suited to playing a more expansive game, slinging the ball out wide sort of thing?

Jennings is a cute hoor.
Wallace is a wild beast.

To win at the breakdown, you need a bit of cute hoorism, and a bit of wild beastism.

Jennings fades the line between onside and offside, bends the rules about hands in rucks, and is a class act in terms of slowing opposition ball down (split seconds matter hugely in terms of realigning a defence) and in turn, speeding ball up for our scrum half.
He has developed hugely in the last 18 months into "Much More than a 7" though, as a lot of the interpretation changes hurt the "fetcher" gameplan that he had mastered. He is an incredible defender, and organiser too, its interesting to actually watch him around the rucks. Essentially, people call Mike Ross a scrum-nerd, I'd say Jennings is a breakdown-geek.

Wallace is pure physicality, he doesn't bother with the cute hoorism unless it's absolutely needed. He definitely has it in his game, but doesn't rely on it much. He's more likely to come screaming out of a maul with a turnover ball than Jennings is, and more likely to force a turnover by counter rucking or by turning an attacker in the tackle onto "our side". He also has more pace than Jennings, and probably has better hands (no slight on Jennings though, who's offloading has been exceptional this year).

Essentially, they're both 7s in a different mold, Wallace the powerful atheletic "wing forward" style 7, and Jennings the crafty conniving 7 that everyone hates playing against.

keane2097 · 20-06-2011 1:02pm

Thanks guys, great post emmet.

Is there a genuine worry of Jennings not even going to NZ?

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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