Feminists

Morag · 10-05-2011 3:28pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh god... Let's miss my point by a country mile shall we and rather than address the two points let's help the morons out there by proving their point?

:P

Wibbs wrote: »

How trite and lazy to post that link. If you want to use that as a defence any time someone raises a point that doesn't square with your worldview on this, knock yourself out, but it hardly passes for debate.

The link points to the arguments/position which are done again and again to derail discussions, as has been pointed out by you and other posters, women aren't 'allowed' to have such discussions with out someone wading in with one of them. You may consider it trite I consider it pertinent.

WesternNight wrote: »

How boring would the world be if everyone just asked Google every time they had a question rather than enter into a dialogue with others who are interested in the same topic? You're under no obligation to reply if it's inconvenient for you to answer peoples' questions. You can also feel free to bring the discussion back onto the track whenever you want.

I would question are they really interested in the same topic?

This thread started of with the perceptions of what people think feminism is,
and soon spiralled out into misperception, stereotypes and myths and the quashing of them, which has been intresting but the thread is now about how it's is difficult to have discussion and you are right I could be jaded from people who feign interest until they have their point made and wander off,
as they wish to refute feminism and that there is a need for it and not take part in an informed discussion.

Ickle Magoo · 10-05-2011 3:36pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh it is, but ask yourself why IM. Why does that stuff pile in? Why is there aggression and resentment? IMHO it's a goodly chunk of the problem modern feminism faces. Other than maybe a boards demographic affecting it, I do think it boils down to two things; a) men don't see it as they don't live it, and/or b) many average men look around more and more and it seems average women are doing better overall in life. Well there's also the third option of course, people being twats.

There's also option four - the complete failure to galvanise themselves to fight any discriminatory or unfair practices that affect men and instead choose to aim their resentment and bitterness at any women who dares to be less lethargic/apathetic - usually thrown in with any and occasionally all of points you make above.

WesternNight · 10-05-2011 3:40pm

Perhaps you're right, Sharrow. The OP's involvement in this thread ended on page 1, after 2 posts :cool:

Wibbs · 10-05-2011 3:44pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There's also option four - the complete failure to galvanise themselves to fight any discriminatory or unfair practices that affect men and instead choose to aim their resentment and bitterness at any women who dares to be less lethargic/apathetic

I think that's already covered by my option three tbh.

Ambersky · 10-05-2011 3:50pm

What a great link Sharrow I really havent seen it before. Im going to bookmark that one, it gives a great list of ways discussions on feminism are derailed.
Finally A Feminism 101, uses it in their blog on frequently answered questions.

:D:D:D:D Isnt that brilliant.
The first two examples on the list are (a) and (b).
(a)If you wont educate me how can I learn.
Then you spend a long time explaining and someone comes in with virtually the same question Whats all this feminism about cos.......
(b)If you cared about these matters you would educate me.

This thread is not the first and it is not the last to go on in this circular fashion.

I thought unkle junior was onto something there when s/he posted the link to the first post

i will leave this quote of the famous first post empty as I might be in trouble here but

I thought I detected a note of humerous irony in that post, I mean we are all back to square one really arent we

I also agree with Ickle Magoo

The aggressive and dismissive resentment evident whenever the topic, mention of support or even a wider discussion on the ideology of feminism rears its head - even in a forum which exists for female posters to discuss issues from a female perspective - is really quite staggering...it's almost worth a discussion in it's own right.

think i have an idea where it started to go wildly off course:cool:

And as Western Night says

Perhaps you're right, Sharrow. The OP's involvement in this thread ended on page 1, after 2 posts

Blowfish · 10-05-2011 5:14pm

Sharrow wrote: »

I get that awareness and education is needed on what feminism is as it's far to easy for people to trot out the same trite slanted stereotypes, as we have seen time and again in this thread. But demanding to be educated instead of informing yourself just places another burden on people.

While I'd agree with you in the most part, there are some parts where it's actually fairly tough to educate yourself on. Obviously, a lot of the 'big' issues originally associated with the original Feminist movements have been sorted, but this leaves a lot of the smaller stuff which would vary hugely based on location, socio-economic background etc.

Given that as has been mentioned earlier a lot of this can be subtle stuff which can be easily missed or go under the radar, getting individual opinions on what feminism is and what issues they themselves face can actually be pretty useful.

Wibbs · 10-05-2011 5:43pm

Blowfish wrote: »

While I'd agree with you in the most part, there are some parts where it's actually fairly tough to educate yourself on.

This. And the line trotted out that this always a derailment is a tad paranoid(yea and I know that's one in the list too

)."Ho ho aren't we clever, we spotted them" stuff. It may be an actual question you know? Plus my original point was that "men [may not] see it as they don't live it". If someone doesn't point it out to them(doesn't have to be a woman either), then what changes? Not unless they become psychic. TBH for me it's up there with the logic of "if you really cared you'd know what was wrong".

As Blowfish said for a lot of men and women too, they can miss the overt stuff, never mind the subtle. Forget men for a second, it's not obvious for a helluva lot of women out there. Fairly often I've seen really blatant sexism and women involved just didn't spot it, mostly because it was just a slight volume change on the background noise. Others did spot it, but ignored it as they figured what could they do about it, or didn't know how. How many women are out there just having finished work today who experience this? Quite a few I'd warrant. The more education in the real world, by all of us an a daily basis in little steps is what will help all involved, rather than worrying about nerdninja derailment tactics of 14 year old virginal boys and chortling over how obvious they are.

My 3 cents anyway.

gargleblaster · 10-05-2011 5:46pm

Sharrow wrote: »

While I do think men and women and boys and girls need enlightenment, encouragement and empowerment to try and scrap the gender assumptions we have inherited, I think girls and women need it more.

(snip)

Men also need this, but not at the expense of women's discussion, or diluting them down.

I disagree with the bolded text, because (at the risk of going offtopic, though not so much IMO actually) many of the gender issues which seem to affect both women and men are (it seems to me) entwined within society's determination of what women and men should do, how they should act, etc. (i.e. prescribed gender roles) and those rules don't only apply to one gender.

Since the feminist movement started, there has been a lot of positive change for both men and women, but moreso for women. We can now enter the workforce and be taken seriously by the majority of people. Fathers who are stay-at-home caregivers, however, still face an awful lot of discrimination. Women can choose to wear whatever they like. Sure they may be seen as a tomboy or butch, but most likely they will not feel they're in danger of being physically assaulted nor will they be labeled perverts or mocked for doing so.

Additionally there are freedoms a woman has that a man does not, such as the freedom to be emotional, to feel pain and to express hurt. This is still mostly seen as 'not manly' and once boys have grown out of the toddler stage, they start not being comforted as much when they cry and start being instructed not to do it. Crying releases stress hormomes and forcing boys to pretend they're emotionless, stoic heroes instead of human beings affects their physical health nevermind their psychological well being.

Sorry, ranting a little but my point is that feminism has to address the ways that things which are considered feminine (emotional vulnerability, stylish dress, full-time parenting) are considered less-than and therefore males are shamed out of participating or experiencing things that are either well within their rights to experience or downright human needs.

I hope that made sense. What I'm saying is that discrimination against women can very much affect men too. I think we need to address the cultural habit of defining 'feminine' things as less-than, and that involves educating men and boys, too, right along with the girls.

Really apologize for the length of this.

Ickle Magoo · 10-05-2011 5:49pm

While I'd agree that education all round can only be a good thing, Wibbs, I'm not sure this is the most appropriate place to do that - nor that it's very fair that responsibility should fall to posters just trying to have a discussion. The complaints regarding derailments are generally made in relation to this forum and it's intended function as a discussion area for female posters rather than discussion having to be made en masse and on a loop as an educational tool for every guy who happens to wander in and ask the same question already answered 5 pages ago.

Wibbs · 10-05-2011 6:01pm

Cool. I never said it should be in this forum(hence I said "in the real world"). I never said it should be the responsibility of any poster, but as I've been accused of derailment on this thread already (which I still call cobblers on), I'll leave ye to it.

Micky Dolenz · 10-05-2011 6:05pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

While I'd agree that education all round can only be a good thing, Wibbs, I'm not sure this is the most appropriate place to do that - nor that it's very fair that responsibility should fall to posters just trying to have a discussion. The complaints regarding derailments are generally made in relation to this forum and it's intended function as a discussion area for female posters rather than discussion having to be made en masse and on a loop as an educational tool for every guy who happens to wander in and ask the same question already answered 5 pages ago.

As a male who rarely posts in here, I think last night was probably my first time, the above is not very welcoming. And not to further derail a thread. Would you rather men did not participate?

Ickle Magoo · 10-05-2011 6:22pm

It's not participation I have an issue with - discussing issues that affect women WITH women would be great...what's really annoying is being unable to actually have a discussion that fulfils the most basic purpose of this forum because most of the posts and energy are directed at men arguing AGAINST the validity of the points, thoughts, feelings and experiences of the women posting.

The forum was created because of an issue female posters come up against due not in small part to the basic demographics of Boards - that there is often complaints and female posters avoiding participating in discussions in tLL because they have been hi-jacked by male posters arguing like a dog with a bone about issues completely unrelated to both the discussion being had and often to to women themselves speaks volumes. Either this forum has a purpose unique to any other, such as Humanities, or it doesn't.

Friendly is great but if posters are just driving by to poke fun, derail a thread, or rabidly and continually attempt to turn the discussion towards themselves &/or their gender then they are in breach of one of the very basic tenets of this forum. I don't think acknowledging why the forum exists or the problems that led to it's creation are being unfriendly - if anything the ignoring of that is the issue here.

Wibbs · 10-05-2011 6:57pm

I agree with all that IM. I've helped moderate it often enough. Even banned a few for not following it. But it would also be nice to be able to have a discussion without being accused of derailing the thread because that's the easy option, or the poster is male, or because it deflects from other points they want to avoid acknowledging in their argument. IMHO it's the same intent and effect as calling "troll" on someone and its common enough to see here.

WesternNight · 10-05-2011 7:03pm

I can't help thinking that an open, no-rules type of discussion is the only way to properly get to the heart of this issue (it would come with its own frustrations, but perhaps ultimately easier to deal with when given the lee-way). It can only ever get so far when lines have to be towed. It always seems to keep tripping up at the same hurdle every time it comes up which is a shame, but understandable in this venue.

Ickle Magoo · 10-05-2011 7:20pm

I appreciate that Wibbs, I do - but what is the point of encouraging discussion here that is just as easily had in humanities? Why not just move discussion threads over to humanities if there is going to be no weight put on the function of the forum? If female posters are unable to have a discussion on issues that affect them, encompassing one of the basic principles outlined in the charter, then either something is going sadly awry or the charter needs updating/forum abolished.

Being constantly asked to explain why women don't support more men's issues, told that their gripes are rendered moot because men have to put up with X, Y & Z, or any of the other aggressive and tiresome arguments always thrown into these discussions in lieu of actually engaging on the topic at hand isn't having a discussion about the issue, it is dismissing that there is an issue worth discussing - which is a distinctly different kettle of gill-bearing aquatic vertebrate...

Anyway, I don't speak for everyone - maybe we need a vote?

darkman2 · 10-05-2011 7:33pm

Seems fine here to me (20 pages of good discussion in fact). Humanities is a bit deserted tbh. This is almost into my top 50 most popular threads ever started.

Count Duckula · 10-05-2011 7:33pm

The simplest way would be to simply bar male posters from entering tLL, in much the same way they can't get into the Private section. I've posted on other forums where steps like that have needed to be made.

I think it's an inevitable result of having a website with a demographic like Boards (mostly male) and yet a forum within that which discusses issues from a woman's perspective. Men will likely feel strongly about those issues too, and in small numbers might be welcome, but considering that the huge majority of posters are male it only takes 5% of them to wade in and the thread is utterly flooded and derailed.

Ambersky · 10-05-2011 8:25pm

As I am completely new here I dont think I can comment on this part of the discussion except to say, this is my first time here as I was attracted to the topic from Boards.ie main page.
I also wanted to see what the Ladies Lounge was like and although I did expect to hear a lot of negative perception about Feminists I kind of thought that might be from young women.
I thought maybe as I have been active as a feminist for many many years, been on the protests to legalise contraceptives etc. that I would have something to give and was glad the topic was brought up.
Usually I drift in and out of areas on boards, still cant find a home.:(
I really didnt expect the way it went, although if it was in an area like Humanities or Philosophy I would have expected most of the imput, challenge, refuting of argument and dismissing of feminism, to have come from men and probably would have been more careful, maybe wouldnt have got involved at all.
I personally would have liked a womens section that had a good intelligent topical component and a relaxed more informal area where you could talk with women.

Morag · 10-05-2011 8:44pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Given that as has been mentioned earlier a lot of this can be subtle stuff which can be easily missed or go under the radar, getting individual opinions on what feminism is and what issues they themselves face can actually be pretty useful.

But it's hard to have those discussions when the thread gets bogged down in 'X effects/happens to men too' and the debate/argument refuting posts.
There is a difference between sharing and debating.

Wibbs · 10-05-2011 10:53pm

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I appreciate that Wibbs, I do - but what is the point of encouraging discussion here that is just as easily had in humanities?

Cards on the table IM? And it goes without saying completely my take. I think the more we hamper actual debate* or god forbid do what Count Duckula suggests and make it some women only forum, it will IMHO look like women need the protection. Almost like kids unable to mix it with the adult(well...

) men and kept locked away for their own good. Frankly speaking fook that. That really doesn't sit right with me IM. Plus it's utter crap. Ok another angle; currently we fire off fashion and personal issues type threads to their respective 'correct' forums, if we then fire off subjects like this to humanities (or a secret forum**) what's left? Caring/sharing, know your ladies and a "oooh I'd do him" threads? OK obviously overcooking it there, but I'm getting something across of what I mean?

Sharrow wrote: »

There is a difference between sharing and debating.

Actually this post nails a lot of it down for me anyway. I can do and understand both, but I need a signpost to spot the diff sometimes. TBH sharing coming up in a debate thread really throws me. It feels odd. Ditto for the reverse. Though TBH again I don't rate sharing so much. That's a failing in me though.

* I mean non trolly stuff. We're well able to spot tLL specific trolls already, so that's not at issue and we can all report posts we think get missed. It doesn't mean we jump on the confirmation bias train and look for problems were none exist of course. I think and have enough faith in the LL network brain to reckon we're ok on that score.

*and god are there not enough of them on Boards as it is?

Stheno · 10-05-2011 11:09pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Cards on the table IM? And it goes without saying completely my take. I think the more we hamper actual debate* or god forbid do what Count Duckula suggests and make it some women only forum, it will IMHO look like women need the protection. Almost like kids unable to mix it with the adult(well... ) men and kept locked away for their own good. Frankly speaking fook that. That really doesn't sit right with me IM. Plus it's utter crap.

I disagree for a couple of reasons, some more relevant than others.

1. Firstly, if one encourages women to debate/question such issues amongst themselves, then you may offer a "safe haven" for women who are interested in, but wary of the level of confrontation on threads such as these, so that they start to engage and form their own opinions, not necessarily a replica of those posted, but in an engaging and encouraging forum people will form opinions of their own and gain from it. Guys could read but not contribute?

Think of Brian O'Driscoll last year, "knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing that you don't put it in a fruit salad". You need the information about the tomato before you have the knowledge it's a fruit. One issue that really gets me on this forum, is that when serious topics are up for discussion, a huge majority of the regular tLL members are conspicuous by their absence, I'd love to know why? Is it fear of debate/lack of interest/whatever?

2.Personally and speaking as a non mod and just a member, I'd love to see a subforum here discussing women specific issues, with harsher moderation so that women can choose to engage in subjects such as these without the fear of an anti female poster of either gender hijacking their post? I've had that happen to me in previous debates, and it's not nice at all.

3. Pretty much every large company I've worked in, and on LinkedIn there have been forums dedicated to women in my profession, have to say, I've never joined them, but given that large (huge) corporations have them, it might be worth considering once the appropriate value is agreed?

4. I'm a member of girl geeks, haven't been to a dinner for a while but planning to remedy that at the next session hopefully this month

It's fun to sit down with a group of my peers who are all female and chat about work, how it goes, and different issues, it's rare, actually never happened to me that it's about male vs female, but it's very comfortable, like having dinner with your girlfriends

Actually this post nails a lot of it down for me anyway. I can do and understand both, but I need a signpost to spot the diff sometimes. TBH sharing coming up in a debate thread really throws me. It feels odd. Ditto for the reverse. Though TBH again I don't rate sharing so much. That's a failing in me though.

Ah the god with feet of clay

Gutted I am

I think that sharing in a debate and applying it to the debate can and does enrich debate, unless it is used in an inappropriate way to attack the debatee bringing it up

EDIT: I should have added another reason as being the influence of women speaking to other women. In my work life, I've often sought advice from women when available, and now find women who are younger than me asking me for advice, and sometimes being reticent to do so with male colleagues. Sometimes I run interference and it can be helpful for them.

liah · 10-05-2011 11:29pm

Stheno wrote: »

One issue that really gets me on this forum, is that when serious topics are up for discussion, a huge majority of the regular tLL members are conspicuous by their absence, I'd love to know why? Is it fear of debate/lack of interest/whatever?

Not sure if what I have to say here is relevant as I'm not sure who you're referring to (I mean, I post here a lot, but I don't know if anyone would see me as a 'regular' or anything), but FWIW I've stopped bothering for the most part because I simply lost the masochistic streak it required to keep being forced to repeat my arguments a hundredfold and being forced to pander to every little pedantic, nitpicking, derailing comment thrown at me. It's too aggressive, and it's always the same people with the same arguments we've heard a thousand times over. When an intelligent debate turns into attack vs. defense, it's not worth it.

My reason is that I just plain haven't got it in me anymore. Genuinely don't.

Kinda makes me sad, really. But what can you do? Nowadays I'll pop in with a post, maybe two or three if it's something I'm super-interested in, but the second I can smell a whiff of the aggression coming out I just unsubscribe to the thread. Not worth it at all.

Morag · 10-05-2011 11:30pm

One of the more intresting threads which have ran on the forum was about sexual harassment and it was women sharing some of their experiences, which were not picked apart. While it was sad to see that so many of us had such experiences, you could see posters gaining strength and support from others in the thread.

That sort of sharing highlights the issue, lets women know they are not alone and makes them more likely to speak up if it happens to them or happens again.

Logical Fallacy · 10-05-2011 11:31pm

Count Duckula wrote: »

The simplest way would be to simply bar male posters from entering tLL, in much the same way they can't get into the Private section. I've posted on other forums where steps like that have needed to be made.

I think it's an inevitable result of having a website with a demographic like Boards (mostly male) and yet a forum within that which discusses issues from a woman's perspective. Men will likely feel strongly about those issues too, and in small numbers might be welcome, but considering that the huge majority of posters are male it only takes 5% of them to wade in and the thread is utterly flooded and derailed.

In fairness, over 20 pages of this thread it only started to degenerate into any kind of "them vs us" style debate towards the very end, and even then it's pretty mild stuff. There is more talk around the act itself than there is evidence of said act.

Edit : Also, if you move such conversation to Humanities then you are just leaving it more open to the kind of people who will engage purely to dismiss the argument...which strikes me as sacrificing the debate to save the debaters.

I was previously a Mod, so i am not saying this lightly, but this thread started with a fairly obvious question as to "what is a feminist"? As will always happen on a board like this the discussion slowly evolved and become something quite different...but i do have to ask if posts were made in the thread that are so objectionable are people reporting them...and are Mods deciding to live them to move debate along? Perhaps a stiffer stick could be used when the X Vs Y (oh LF, you are SO funny) debate crops up and just kill it in it's tracks?

To be clear, not questioning the moderation of the forum...just wondering out loud.

liah · 10-05-2011 11:32pm

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

In fairness, over 20 pages of this thread it only started to degenerate into any kind of "them vs us" style debate towards the very end, and even then it's pretty mild stuff. There is more talk around the act itself than there is evidence of said act.

This thread was a beautiful rarity. The exception that proves the rule. The usual suspects are conspicuously absent.

Plus it's only 8 pages

Stheno · 10-05-2011 11:33pm

liah wrote: »

Not sure if what I have to say here is relevant as I'm not sure who you're referring to (I mean, I post here a lot, but I don't know if anyone would see me as a 'regular' or anything), but FWIW I've stopped bothering for the most part because I simply lost the masochistic streak it required to keep being forced to repeat my arguments a hundredfold and being forced to pander to every little pedantic, nitpicking, derailing comment thrown at me. It's too aggressive, and it's always the same people with the same arguments we've heard a thousand times over. When an intelligent debate turns into attack vs. defense, it's not worth it.

My reason is that I just plain haven't got it in me anymore. Genuinely don't.

Kinda makes me sad, really. But what can you do? Nowadays I'll pop in with a post, maybe two or three if it's something I'm super-interested in, but the second I can smell a whiff of the aggression coming out I just unsubscribe to the thread. Not worth it at all.

You've summed up pretty much what I thought, as posters go here, I'm ancient and I guess I'd like to see more participation by younger posters in the more serious debates, but without guidance and a lack of aggression to learn and pursue those topics, then I suspect tLL will never achieve what it wants to.

Sharrow wrote: »

One of the more intresting threads which have ran on the forum was about sexual harassment and it was women sharing some of their experiences, which were not picked apart. While it was sad to see that so many of us had such experiences, you could see posters gaining strength and support from others in the thread.

That sort of sharing highlights the issue, lets women know they are not alone and makes them more likely to speak up if it happens to them or happens again.

again this kinda reinforces my point, perhaps a fully public ladies lounge is actually negating achieving this?

It's very much my personal viewpoint, nothing to do with my being a mod here, in fact I think I posted something a year or more ago in a feedback thread here, and it would need discussion amongst the mods and a poll to see what sort of interest support there would be before it could be considered in any way.

liah · 10-05-2011 11:34pm

Stheno wrote: »

perhaps a fully public ladies lounge is actually negating achieving this?

How depressing is that thought though?

Logical Fallacy · 10-05-2011 11:39pm

liah wrote: »

Plus it's only 8 pages

Mine is set to show fewer posts so it doesn't clog up my Smartass phone when i am too lazy to get off the couch to bitch about stuff on the internet.

Stheno · 10-05-2011 11:44pm

liah wrote: »

How depressing is that thought though?

tbh, not much really, I never gave feminism/equality a jot of thought as a child, now I'd a rather unusual upbringing in fairness compared to the average Irish kid. Then I got jobs, and then I went into IT, and then I started questioning behavour, but as I've posted in the past, my experience is largely positive.

And as well, given your reaction to my original question, would YOU be more likely to engage in debate in a women only forum so that you could learn and form your own opinons based on the info you found there?

One thing I will say about all the contentious threads here is that you get a great spread of opinion from both genders

@ Logical Fallacy I'm only a new mod and only last week was thinking there wasn't too much moderation, it's taken a fair bit of work by ALL the mods to keep it on track.

Wibbs · 10-05-2011 11:45pm

liah wrote: »

How depressing is that thought though?

Plus one and why I think it really does look like many women need the protection and /or many men can't stop being twats.

Feminists

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