Where do you find rest?

Donatello · 26-04-2011 01:41AM #1

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

But you are just distracting yourself. You have the money to do it. Great. But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, for those of you who do not believe in God.

“O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.”
- St. Augustine of Hippo

kirving · 26-04-2011 01:44AM

Why couldn't someone substitute God for a real person?

(Damnit! Was on my phone and the video link didn't paste in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0

strobe · 26-04-2011 01:49AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

But you are just distracting yourself. You have the money to do it. Great. But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, for those of you who do not believe in God.

“O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.”
- St. Augustine of Hippo

I do not see the difference between how you describe God in the above paragraphs and how I have heard heroin addicts I have worked with describe diacetylmorphine. I see no difference between how you describe the material things people use as distractions and how you use God as a distraction.

But if you want what does it for me? People mainly. Friends, family, interesting strangers, give me 'peace, joy'.

Also, music is nice.

(case in point)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKtlJVvy7aA

Goduznt Xzst · 26-04-2011 01:49AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

...

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

I find my rest in reading XKCD

Galvasean · 26-04-2011 01:54AM

What is this, ask obvious bloody questions week?

virmilitaris · 26-04-2011 01:56AM

I wonder if you are interested. Let's see.

Peoples belief in god, allah, thor, fairies etc is all the same. You have an imaginery friend with characteristics supplied by someone else which you approve of.

The only joy and solace you gain from this is caused by your own mind.

Where do I get my joy from? Kissing my wife goodnight, playing with my dog, having a meal with my parents, meeting good friends, watching an hour of Carl Sagan or listening to a clip of Stephen Hawkings.

Eating some new delicious food, drinking some good wine, listening to good music or a beautiful poem.

Any and all of which I would take over your god any day of the week, whether he is imaginary or not.

The Mad Hatter · 26-04-2011 02:30AM

Donatello wrote: »

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy.

Then, truly, you have my pity.

I find joy in this amazing world - in great writing and great art, in the discoveries of science, in helping people, in good conversation and jokes and silly things. Watching a Carl Sagan documentary or reading a story by Joyce or wondering at the intricacies of a fugue by Bach, leaves me feeling whole and fulfilled. Joy is knowing that I have friends and family, and that we are all (more or less) healthy and happy, and we care for each other. I felt joy and bliss and tranquility lying with my girlfriend on the beach of the Baie des Anges in Nice, and I feel even more when I know that those feelings can be brought back to me by simply running my thumb across the smooth surface of a pebble that she gave me there. There's joy in nature - in the peace of a forest in late Summer, and in the majesty of galaxies - but in technology too: my parents, who live at the other side of the country, I can see face-to-face at the touch of a button. Isn't that incredible? How can you fail to find joy in a marvel like that?

If you need to look outside of the universe to find joy, then yours must be a miserable existence.

Donatello · 26-04-2011 02:51AM

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Why couldn't someone substitute God for a real person?

Is it too much to ask of another person, as ordinary and mortal as you are, to fulfil your every desire?

strobe wrote: »

I do not see the difference between how you describe God in the above paragraphs and how I have heard heroin addicts I have worked with describe diacetylmorphine. I see no difference between how you describe the material things people use as distractions and how you use God as a distraction.

Heroin is not liberating - it is enslaving and destructive. It is an escape from reality. God, on the other hand, and faith in Him, is sustainable and life-giving.

virmilitaris wrote: »

Where do I get my joy from? Kissing my wife goodnight, playing with my dog, having a meal with my parents, meeting good friends, watching an hour of Carl Sagan or listening to a clip of Stephen Hawkings.

Eating some new delicious food, drinking some good wine, listening to good music or a beautiful poem.

Those things are good, of course. Well, I'm not so sure about Sagan or Hawkins.

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Then, truly, you have my pity.

I find joy in this amazing world - in great writing and great art, in the discoveries of science, in helping people, in good conversation and jokes and silly things. Watching a Carl Sagan documentary or reading a story by Joyce or wondering at the intricacies of a fugue by Bach, leaves me feeling whole and fulfilled. Joy is knowing that I have friends and family, and that we are all (more or less) healthy and happy, and we care for each other. I felt joy and bliss and tranquility lying with my girlfriend on the beach of the Baie des Anges in Nice, and I feel even more when I know that those feelings can be brought back to me by simply running my thumb across the smooth surface of a pebble that she gave me there. There's joy in nature - in the peace of a forest in late Summer, and in the majesty of galaxies - but in technology too: my parents, who live at the other side of the country, I can see face-to-face at the touch of a button. Isn't that incredible? How can you fail to find joy in a marvel like that?

Of course there is joy and peace in sunsets and swallows and rainbows. But these things, in themselves, do not satisfy all the aspirations and hopes of the human heart. They point to something more. Even in the best of times - perhaps especially in the best of times - there is this thought of 'Is this it? Is this as good as it gets?' An exam success, a new exciting job opportunity, a new girlfriend, a new house, holidays etc... None of these things, as good as they might be, fulfils absolutely. It would be too much to ask of any created thing of absolute and permanent fulfilment. None of these things last forever.

sponsoredwalk · 26-04-2011 03:00AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

We actually don't, we're quite envious of those who take comfort in
knowing there's a being there who would have drowned them had they
been born in a certain era (time of the flood y'know).

Donatello wrote: »

But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

If god was such a permanent solution then you wouldn't be continually
straying from him. People fall off the wagon & return to the bottle in the
way you're describing.

Donatello wrote: »

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

Not all of us see our families, friends, passions as distractions from our
solitary walks of happiness. It's nice of you to argue that true happiness
only comes when you view your family as a distraction, but some of us
don't buy it.

Donatello wrote: »

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy.
When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

Sounds to me like you're like every human being on the planet who gets
that feeling when they go for a walk , if you didn't view everything else
in this world as a triviality/distraction you might also get the feeling from
other things as well.

In fact, I have musical evidence people get that feeling from going
from a walk outside (:p) here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32dlZL1HPDk

(Don't know how something like that is just a distraction).

Donatello wrote: »

IMaterial goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside.

None of those were ever seriously claimed to be effective remedies
against the emptiness inside. Yeah people use some/all of these as a
means to try to medicate themselves but that doesn't mean they will
work or that they are supposed to work. I don't take some elitist
perspective of people who use those things as ways to find happiness
though...

It's another thing I've noticed, "the emptiness that is inside" - that is
something you'd hear from either a depressed person or a religious
person. It's no surprise either, the cultish practices foster depression
& division, I mean you're arguing that your family/friends etc... are
just distractions! It doesn't surprise me that someone who has already
decided that everything in this life is simply a triviality, merely a
distraction, would be depressed. I just don't accept the idea that you
can argue all of us who don't think like you are without joy - peace &
rest can come when you get old - I mean you're going to have to take
a step back, take off the beer goggles & realize how hateful this
fundamentalist ideology is - making you view outsiders as joyless, your
family as a distraction & your god as nothing but a drug that hilariously
exemplifies all the common traits of a drug (running out, letting it's user
stray from indulgence for a while only to come back harder than before).

---

Heard this awesome song a few days ago, really seems appropriate
right now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYwndYSA6-U

Stercus Accidit · 26-04-2011 03:07AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

I wonder if you are interested. Let's see.

Peoples belief in god, allah, thor, fairies etc is all the same. You have an imaginery friend with characteristics supplied by someone else which you approve of.

The only joy and solace you gain from this is caused by your own mind.

Where do I get my joy from? Kissing my wife goodnight, playing with my dog, having a meal with my parents, meeting good friends, watching an hour of Carl Sagan or listening to a clip of Stephen Hawkings.

Eating some new delicious food, drinking some good wine, listening to good music or a beautiful poem.

Any and all of which I would take over your god any day of the week, whether he is imaginary or not.

Brilliantly put, thanks.

I have to say, not feeling guilty for being human, flaws and all, is a big load off of my mind too, try to find that kind of contentedness while trying to please a petty god.

The Mad Hatter · 26-04-2011 03:20AM

Donatello wrote: »

Of course there is joy and peace in sunsets and swallows and rainbows. But these things, in themselves, do not satisfy all the aspirations and hopes of the human heart. They point to something more. Even in the best of times - perhaps especially in the best of times - there is this thought of 'Is this it? Is this as good as it gets?' An exam success, a new exciting job opportunity, a new girlfriend, a new house, holidays etc... None of these things, as good as they might be, fulfils absolutely. It would be too much to ask of any created thing of absolute and permanent fulfilment. None of these things last forever.

Neither, according to your OP ("I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God."), does the joy you find in God.

I would agree with your assertion that the joy I feel in any of those things is permanent - of course it's not. But if by "absolute" you mean "unsurpassable" then I disagree utterly.

And it's Hawking.

Pygmalion · 26-04-2011 03:25AM

Donatello wrote: »

Heroin is not liberating - it is enslaving and destructive. It is an escape from reality. God, on the other hand

I lol'd.

Donatello · 26-04-2011 03:29AM

Pygmalion wrote: »

I lol'd.

I knew you would.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Not all of us see our families, friends, passions as distractions from our
solitary walks of happiness. It's nice of you to argue that true happiness
only comes when you view your family as a distraction, but some of us
don't buy it.

The Christian faith holds the family in high esteem. I am not denigrating the family. We love and serve God through our love and service of our families.

What I am saying is that we cannot fill our emptiness with the empty pursuit of pleasure, nor can we fulfil ourselves with the pursuit of money, power, academic achievement etc...

Pygmalion · 26-04-2011 03:30AM

You seem to need God to be happy.
I don't.

Clearly you're not going to accept this, and will continue to insist I'm terribly unfulfilled.
I can see this going around in circles.

virmilitaris · 26-04-2011 04:36AM

Donatello wrote: »

Of course there is joy and peace in sunsets and swallows and rainbows. But these things, in themselves, do not satisfy all the aspirations and hopes of the human heart.

And religion / belief in your god / worship of your god does ?

I could argue that it doesn't in other people since you have stated yourself that sometimes you stray from your god meaning he doesn't always satisfy your aspirations or hopes.

But I'll leave that and instead explain my own opinion on the subject.

I do not believe in your god but let's imagine for a moment that I do. If your god was real then not only would I not find it fulfilling or good, I would find it reprehensible and evil.

I would not worship your god even if you could prove to me that it was real. I get no comfort or solace from the belief that I am a slave to some other being regardless of his position or powers. I would find such a belief to be the exact opposite, I would find it to be a cause of sorrow not joy.

If the christian god was real it would not fill any emptiness, it would create one. I can think of nothing more empty than the thought of living my life to please some other jealous petty being. But fear not because you are not alone in your desires to do so. North Korea is full of people who do just that, they live their lives to please another jealous petty being.

The way christians talk about god and Jesus is indistinguishable from the way 'loyal' North Koreans talk about Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il. You just need to substitute the word 'god' and 'Jesus' for 'The Great Leader' and 'The Dear Leader' and there would be no difference.

Goduznt Xzst · 26-04-2011 05:20AM

Donatello wrote: »

Heroin is not liberating - it is enslaving and destructive. It is an escape from reality. God, on the other hand, and faith in Him, is sustainable and life-giving.

You're a dyed-in-the-wool Catholic (safe to assume given your sig). Well I can tell you one destructive quality of your faith right off the bat without even getting into the crippling doctrines therein, it's obviously destroyed the reasoning centers of your brain that should of seen how your definition of Heroin is exactly what Catholicism is.

doriansmith · 26-04-2011 07:11AM

I really don't understand this idea some religious people have that there's no joy in life without God.

Growing up Catholic & believing in God never brought me peace or joy. I actually find more 'peace' now as an atheist. I find joy in people - family & friends and the moments & memories shared with them. And in learning more about, exploring & seeing more of this amazing world we live in.

I feel a lot luckier to be alive knowing that I'm here by chance, than I would by believing that a God designed me & planned for me to be here.

Happiness is in the here & now, not in living life in the hope that there'll be something better afterwards.

achtungbarry · 26-04-2011 07:36AM

You seem to talk a lot about 'our emptiness' when I think you mean 'my emptiness'. Projecting ?

There is so much in the world that gives me joy: my wife, my family, friends, music, photography, travel etc. I also get great joy from learning: learning about the world and universe around us. Real knowledge is so much more fulfilling and awe inspiring than 'god did it'.

I find rest in simply going for a walk or reading a book.

Open your eyes and broaden your mind and you will find much joy in the real world. I feel sorry for you if you can't.

Delirium · 26-04-2011 07:44AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

Music, books, movies, spending time with friends and family.

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

why do religious people always presume that non-religious people turn to drugs, sex and/or alcohol? It's as if you can only equate belief in god with being in an altered state.

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

But you are just distracting yourself. You have the money to do it. Great. But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

Thats all based on the assumption that other people feel an emptiness that religious people felt before joining their respective religion.

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

Sounds like you're projecting what you want to see.

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, for those of you who do not believe in God.

I feel sorry for you that you only have your religion to give you joy. It sounds like you use your religion as comfort blanket because you can't enjoy life.

26-04-2011 07:48AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person.

Donatello you may feel a "spiritual void" but please do not project it onto the rest of us. The "emptiness" of the people around you? You sound like a depressed person who needs help, not preaching.
Filling an emptiness with whatever you can find - what a worrying post.

Beruthiel · 26-04-2011 07:50AM

Donatello wrote: »

Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

Total and utter hogwash.
If you suffer from 'emptiness inside' then it is because you have yet to know yourself fully.
There is no emptiness in me, I know who I am.
I am surrounded by beauty and people I love.

People who feel the need to lean on an imaginary sky god have yet to gain full confidence and strength in themselves. They live with delusion. Filling their emptiness with a delusion. That couldn't be more empty imo.

Waking-Dreams · 26-04-2011 08:20AM

Donatello wrote: »

But these things, in themselves, do not satisfy all the aspirations and hopes of the human heart.

Says you.

Ask around, lots of people have found meaning in life without the almighty sky fairy.

Donatello wrote: »

What I am saying is that we cannot fill our emptiness with the empty pursuit of pleasure, nor can we fulfil ourselves with the pursuit of money, power, academic achievement etc...

Our emptiness? If you're convinced everyone is miserable inside without god how do you explain the people who are miserable and believe in god? Religious people are not free from the same woes you like to point out in humankind. Many of them are miserable because of their faith - they feel unworthy, that they are sinners, unclean and should be punished.

Pass!

Penn · 26-04-2011 08:40AM

Masturbation. Because I know God isn't watching me.

magicbastarder · 26-04-2011 08:51AM

Donatello wrote: »

God
Material goods
drugs
sex
alcohol
money
cars
houses
women

this is a list of things from your first post which you list as candidates which can/cannot bring us inner peace.

you seem to be lacking a lot of things in your life. maybe god is filling that hole.

TwoShedsJackson · 26-04-2011 08:54AM

Donatello wrote: »

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person.

So the most convincing proof that God exists is something which can in no way be examined or quantified, and is entirely subjective depending on the observers beliefs and/or morals?

axer · 26-04-2011 08:54AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

Bed

smokingman · 26-04-2011 09:00AM

Thank you Donatello. You've explained as clear as day the crux of religious belief - depression and self loathing.

Tell us more of this "emptiness" you feel?
Why does it exist in the first place?
Do you consider yourself not "worthy" to be alive?
Do you feel daily guilt about everything you do?
Why does your family not fulfill you?

fatmammycat · 26-04-2011 09:00AM

I feel sorry for somebody whose life is so empty that they need to believe in a made up entity to achieve peace of mind. I really do.

liamw · 26-04-2011 09:25AM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

There's joy in nature - in the peace of a forest in late Summer, and in the majesty of galaxies

Indeed there is. Here's a 'materialist' for you Donatello...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSZNsIFID28

axer · 26-04-2011 09:34AM

Donatello wrote: »

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

What about the vatican then? They are supposed to have a god but yet seem to have a need for wealth, expensive art, accomodation etc. Is god not enough for them?

b318isp · 26-04-2011 09:40AM

To be fair to the OP, many people do get answers to their own questions of self-worth, death and aspects of ethics from God or religions.

As I have aged, I have seen less sense in and evidence of a God, even though I had relatively high immersion in RCism for a long time. A sense of fulfilment has come from aligning my reasoning with how I view the world around me - I feel less contradictions now.

I'm comfortable enough with not knowing how or why the universe and everything in it is here. I admit, it was a little hard and saddening getting to get to the point where I realised that everything I grew up with was false, but so be it. I'd also add that this has given me a sense of modesty - I'm not here because of God, God doesn't look at me specifically, I'm no better or worse than the next person (and as much a fluke as they are) and I realise that I have more in common with people of other cultures/creeds/race than I have differences.

As for fulfilment, I now can focus on getting on with life. If I can turn around and say "that was a great weekend", then I know I have done well. I seem to take pleasure in simple things - laughter, a cloud, a good conversation, getting a compliment, going for a walk, getting a job done well, a sense of wonder.

I agree that there is little fulfilment in material things. It's what we do and how we do it that counts.

Where do you find rest?

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