Where do you find rest?

Sefirah

liamw wrote: »

Why do you talk so much ****?

He can't help it, Zeus love him. He's religious.

Turtwig

Donatello wrote: »

Feel your anger Luke. When you understand your anger, you will have made real progress.

In fairness, when Luke got angry he beat the shit out of Darth Vader.

Sarky

Where don't I find joy in life? Everything from the birthday card I got a couple of months ago with the wobbly dinosaur head to sitting down with a nice glass of whiskey, some good tobacco and a book/computer game/blog to write/bunch of friends/entertaining a lady. Doing well in my postgraduate studies. Hearing a good joke. Accomplishing things. They're all fabulous. And I didn't have to petition your god for any of it. My achievements belong to me, and the handful of people who demonstrably aided me on occasion. That is one of the greatest feelings a person can know, in my experience.

Actually, since I turned my back on religion, my life has been so much more successful and fulfilling it's not even funny. God clearly wanted me to be a shy, socially awkward guilt-filled nobody. Because He loves me, no doubt.

Hobbes

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

This is like fingers on a chalkboard to me, mainly due to my sons school head saying something similar about those who were not catholic.

If you see a spiritual void in people, then you are just projecting.

My son has no concept of religion, yet the world is a fantastic place to him. I would argue that he is more at peace then anyone I have met.

Likewise, I never get bored. You call them distractions, I call them life, things to explore and examine/play with.

GO_Bear

Edit : I love life, period

Donatello wrote: »

But only in my walk with The Magic Dragon have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to The Magic Dragon and is a gift from Him. If I walk with The Magic Dragon, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only The Magic Dragon satisfies.

Opium for the masses

liamw

Well, Donatello. With all these atheists saying that they love life without the need to invoke anything supernatural, do you admit that you may simply be wrong about projecting this 'emptiness' onto others?

Donatello

liamw wrote: »

Well, Donatello. With all these atheists saying that they love life without the need to invoke anything supernatural, do you admit that you may simply be wrong about projecting this 'emptiness' onto others?

No. The litany of smart remarks, really just a form of aggression, confirms that I am on to something. I have a lot of insight into human psychology, and this strikes me as a form of psychological defense mechanism - I'm getting a bit too close to the ultimate reality for some people, and the natural defense is, rather than confront the reality, to mock and scorn the messenger so that one doesn't have to face that fear within oneself, to face up to the big white elephant in the room. I expect more mockery and scorn after this post, which only goes to confirm what I am saying.

I have to say that all the non-religious people I know, including family members and friends, live what I call a quiet desperation. I am sure my fellow boards.ie members are no different. You may be somewhat blinded to it, but it's there all the same. We can be well distracted against it through many means.

Like I said, you can just about keep your head above water by moving on to the next big thing, by concentrating on work, hobbies, women/men, even distracting yourself and preoccupying yourself with good things, family obligations, whatever, but the fact is, we all have a massive void, a need for God.

I've met and talked with a lot of people, and I can only come to the same conclusion about each one of them. I've met people who 'have it all', but who are still empty, still searching, still desiring God, even if they don't realise it - it is Him they seek. I know from my own experience from before I found God, we are all looking for the same thing: true love, a love that never ends, and one that cannot find its complete fulfilment in anything other than God. Our searching for infinite love in any created person or thing, even the most noble created things, is bound to fail. No created thing can satisfy us infinitely.

“O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.”
- St. Augustine of Hippo

Donatello

Donatello wrote: »

No. The litany of smart remarks, really just a form of aggression, confirms that I am on to something. I have a lot of insight into human psychology,

No, you don't.

Goodness, I feel sorry for you.

Turtwig

I actually fell off my chair there.

Malty_T

Malty_T wrote: »

I actually fell off my chair there.

That's the realisation of your quiet desperation :pac:

Hobbes

Donatello wrote: »

No. The litany of smart remarks, really just a form of aggression

Did I make a smart remark? I don't believe I did, but if I did can you please point it out. Thanks.

I have a lot of insight into human psychology

Qualified psychologist?

I expect more mockery

Is saying that you are incorrect mockery?

Like I said, you can just about keep your head above water by moving on to the next big thing

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Or rather as I understand you that "Life is meaningless" and God is used to give meaning to your life. That living with the feeling that a greater being created you and all your flaws is so much easier then an enormous random series of events lead up to this moment of you.

If that is what makes you feel better about yourself, then that is fine for you.

You would be correct if that is the case. Life is meaningless

I am of the latter. Life has the meaning you give to it. Am I the result of a random series of events throughout the generations? Yes. So what.

To see a world in a grain of sand, And a heaven in a wild flower, Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, And eternity in an hour.
- William Blake.

opinion guy

Donatello wrote: »

No. The litany of smart remarks, really just a form of aggression, confirms that I am on to something. I have a lot of insight into human psychology, and this strikes me as a form of psychological defense mechanism - I'm getting a bit too close to the ultimate reality for some people, and the natural defense is, rather than confront the reality, to mock and scorn the messenger so that one doesn't have to face that fear within oneself, to face up to the big white elephant in the room. I expect more mockery and scorn after this post, which only goes to confirm what I am saying.

Ok. Genuine words of advice here. Read up on something called "circular logic".

Edit: while your at it read up on "magical thinking" also

fatmammycat

And this folks, is why it is a complete waste of time indulging supernatural worshipping loons.
He 'knows' people, see. If you disagree with him you are wrong, and he is martyr for putting up with us and our big old meanie ways.

Keep your head in the sand Donatello, much less scary down there I imagine.

Zillah

Honestly, lads, if he has a massive void in his heart that swallows up all joy and happiness that can only be filled with belief in God, maybe, just this once, its best we not try and ruin his faith.

GO_Bear

Donatello wrote: »

rather than confront the reality

:pac:

Galvasean

Donatello wrote: »

No. The litany of smart remarks, really just a form of aggression, confirms that I am on to something.

Is the following in any way aggressive or a 'smart' remark?

Sarky wrote: »

Where don't I find joy in life? Everything from the birthday card I got a couple of months ago with the wobbly dinosaur head to sitting down with a nice glass of whiskey, some good tobacco and a book/computer game/blog to write/bunch of friends/entertaining a lady. Doing well in my postgraduate studies. Hearing a good joke. Accomplishing things. They're all fabulous. And I didn't have to petition your god for any of it. My achievements belong to me, and the handful of people who demonstrably aided me on occasion. That is one of the greatest feelings a person can know, in my experience.

Sounds like Sarky (despite his ironic username) is enjoying his life and has no God shaped void.
Of course, it's easy to ignore posts like his (which render your point completely moot) when you can just hand pick the sarcastic ones and claim it's the mean old atheists compensating for the lack of God / good karma / psychic chi in their hearts.

robindch

Donatello wrote: »

Like I said, you can just about keep your head above water by moving on to the next big thing, by concentrating on work, hobbies, women/men, even distracting yourself and preoccupying yourself with good things, family obligations, whatever, but the fact is, we all have a massive void, a need for God.

There's no "god shaped void" in me and there never was. Frankly, I find it bizarre and frequently saddening that so many people have to invent an invisible authority figure in order to feel loved, when the world is full of lovely things and loving people who are real.

Galvasean

Zillah wrote: »

Honestly, lads, if he has a massive void in his heart that swallows up all joy and happiness that can only be filled with belief in God, maybe, just this once, its best we not try and ruin his faith.

OR is this over-dependency on this God character blinding him to the true beauty of the world, the joy that is found in the little things?

Two interesting schools of thought..

*smokes bubbly pipe*

opinion guy

robindch wrote: »

There's no "god shaped void" in me and there never was. Frankly, I find it bizarre and frequently saddening that so many people have to invent an invisible authority figure in order to feel loved, when the world is full of lovely things and loving people who are real.

Ok thou I think you are misunderstanding something here. People don't invent God to feel loved, they invent God to simplify the world (to them). Finding your way out of any void is hard. Can be too hard. Its a comforting escape then to invent a God figure who makes everything ok if you simply believe hard enough. Its much easier to simply believe, rather than to actually find your way out of your problems by yourself. For a random number of people things will just get better anyhow - if you happened to believe first, shut down your brain from thinking about things and then things happen to get better spontaneously then you are only a small logical error away from 'faith'.

Its much the same as the witch who "cured" someones shingles on the other thread - it was gonna happen anyway. Or stuff like The Secret. Its simply a matter of chance and statistics that for a certain number of people this stuff will 'work'. And only human for a certain number of them to attribute this 'working' to a higher power, when it was actually just random chance. Our brains our built to find meaning, patterns and associations - even when they are not there.

liamw

Donatello wrote: »

Like I said, you can just about keep your head above water by moving on to the next big thing, by concentrating on work, hobbies, women/men, even distracting yourself and preoccupying yourself with good things, family obligations, whatever, but the fact is, we all have a massive void, a need for God.

No Donatello. You are describing yourself and nobody else. You came into this thread asking 'Where do you find rest?' and were given straight-forward answers which you've nonsensically dismissed becuase of some 'smart' comments.

You need help.

Beruthiel

liamw wrote: »

You need help.

He's not wrong Donatello.
If you had posted your comments in PI, I would have advised talking to a professional until you get to the root of why your life feels so void to you.

b318isp

Donatello wrote: »

I have to say that all the non-religious people I know, including family members and friends, live what I call a quiet desperation. I am sure my fellow boards.ie members are no different. You may be somewhat blinded to it, but it's there all the same. We can be well distracted against it through many means.

In one word: projection. You are quite entitled to hold this opinion, however I think you may be mixing up desperation for uncertainty.

Donatello

Beruthiel wrote: »

He's not wrong Donatello.
If you had posted your comments in PI, I would have advised talking to a professional until you get to the root of why your life feels so void to you.

No, I said my life was not void, nor without meaning.

The refrain 'you need help' is used as a put down, rather than a statement of genuine concern. Hence it is just another form of psychological defense.

This link explains further the reality behind our human condition and this one the way to freedom.

Ambersky

Lads.
Hasnt anyone noticed a little flaw in the description of god by Donatello, I mean that little flaw that leaves out more than half of the human race.
Its so common I suppose in religious talk that its hardly noticable anymore

Donatello says
The relationship we have with Him is not master/slave, but Father and beloved adopted son.

I know the excuses/explanations for the male generic.
"Of course when we say man we mean women too."
Well no we dont. There is no sisterhood of woman, it is always a brotherhood of man.
Try

Ambersky says
The relationship we have with Her is not master/slave, but Mother and beloved adopted daughter

In our dreams will this kind of language actually become part of the litrugy.
You might get some radical liberals desperate to make a change saying stuff like this but authorities would and do soon put an end to it.
Besides be honest, how do those words feel. Do they feel inclusive, can you imagine if instead of the male generic there was a female generic, all the time.

I suppose many of you here could find all this a bit too feminist and Im not trying to argue for a feminist god or a female deity or a god at all.
Im saying the realisation that the christian god story was about a male threesome, with the father and son so in love with one another that they created a third entity out of their love, in the shape of.......come on now you remember .......yes it was a bird. And yes they did dare to tell women who began to notice their absence that this bird represented the divine feminine.
So I wonder what they think fills the god shaped hole in women?

Ok and before Donatello starts saying there is a "special" place for women and women are so reveared by god that he chose a woman to bear the son of god on earth, well who else was going to do it.
So he gave birth to the world, hmmm, that must have been a bit of a turn around. I wonder why it was necessary.
It was necessary for the creation of patriarchy and a strong obedient army united under one god and willing to die and go onto the next life in the belief that it was better than this one.

Obedience thats the central tenant of christianity. Thats what god the daddy was so upset about for thousands of years.
Humans just couldnt do what they were told and it was very importatnt to daddy to know his children were really really obedient.
First there was the set up in the garden of eden. You can eat anything except, see that tree over there, just dont go near that one.
What a pantomine.
Then there was abraham being asked to "prove" his obedience and love for god by killing his son, this apparently was lead up to god demanding the death of his own son in the most gruesome way possible.
He wanted his son to take the blame for human disobedience, to take it on himself and to pay for it with his life.
Christians have been feeling both guilty and grateful for years but why, why did the daddy god hold in this anger over disobedience for so many years and not get over it. Why did he think someone had to pay in blood, what exactly was he planning to do to us if his son had said "No dad this just isnt the way you should treat people and Im not going to act the martyr any more"

What is it with this god and obedience, what kind of a daddy would behave like this, telling you he loves you but being willing to kill if you are not obedient.
Can any believers understand how unattractive all this sounds

Dont get me started on Mary the obedient servant as role model for women either. Sigh!

Its irredemable the whole lot of it, father son and their holy ghost.

Donatello

I will address each of the points with red text.

Ambersky wrote: »

Lads.
Hasnt anyone noticed a little flaw in the description of god by Donatello, I mean that little flaw that leaves out more than half of the human race.
Its so common I suppose in religious talk that its hardly noticable anymore

I know the excuses/explanations for the male generic.[Yes, when the Bible says brethren, or when I say adopted sons, I of course include the female sex. We are all children of God.]
"Of course when we say man we mean women too."
Well no we dont. There is no sisterhood of woman, it is always a brotherhood of man.
Try

In our dreams will this kind of language actually become part of the litrugy.
You might get some radical liberals desperate to make a change saying stuff like this but authorities would and do soon put an end to it.
Besides be honest, how do those words feel. Do they feel inclusive, can you imagine if instead of the male generic there was a female generic, all the time.

I suppose many of you here could find all this a bit too feminist and Im not trying to argue for a feminist god or a female deity or a god at all.
Im saying the realisation that the christian god story was about a male threesome, with the father and son so in love with one another that they created a third entity out of their love, in the shape of.......come on now you remember .......yes it was a bird. And yes they did dare to tell women who began to notice their absence that this bird represented the divine feminine.[God has revealed Himself as trinitarian. God has revealed Himself as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.]
So I wonder what they think fills the god shaped hole in women? [God.]

Ok and before Donatello starts saying there is a "special" place for women and women are so reveared by god that he chose a woman to bear the son of god on earth, well who else was going to do it.
So he gave birth to the world [He/she? World or word? Typos? I'm not sure. Let's clarify. God created the universe out of nothing. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, the Eternal Word: this involves some theology of the Incarnation, but basically, Christ is a divine person, with a divine and a human nature in the hypostatic union.], hmmm, that must have been a bit of a turn around. I wonder why it was necessary.
It was necessary for the creation of patriarchy and a strong obedient army united under one god and willing to die and go onto the next life in the belief that it was better than this one.
Dont get me started on Mary the obedient servant as role model for women either. Sigh!

Also dont say it dosent matter that women and men are all the same in the eyes of the christian churches.[In Christ there is neither male nor female.]
In catholocism the reason women cant be ordained as priests is, get this, they do not resemble Jesus Christ, the man, and can not have the relationship with the church as bride [Actually, all souls are ultimately female. Souls are part of the Mystical Bride of Christ, the Church. Christ is male, the Church is female. The reason ordained priests must be male is because they must represent the male Christ, who is the head of the Church. If there were female priests, then that would represent spiritual lesbianism. If you can understand this, you are doing a lot better than the dissident 'Catholics' who advocate women priests.]

I suppose they dont want lesbian priests loving the whole church and all that.[You're doing well, like I said! Interestingly, all the Christian groups that have gone on to accept female 'priests' have gone on to accept lesbianism - check out the Anglicans with their gay and lesbian bishops.]

If you haven't got the maturity to discuss this with a respectful attitude (i.e. one that would respect the beliefs of others), then kindly don't bother. Take that in the spirit in which it is said.

AhSureTisGrand

Don't worry Homer. Those atheists — they ain't happy. From the moment they're born till the moment they die, they THINK they're happy, but they ain't.

Delirium

Donatello wrote: »

No, I said my life was not void, nor without meaning.

You have said:

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy.

That says to me that you have a void in your life for whatever reason, and you're using religion to fill it.

The refrain 'you need help' is used as a put down, rather than a statement of genuine concern. Hence it is just another form of psychological defense.

You able to read minds? I would take it that the posters who suggested you may need help were being sincere.

swiftblade

Donatello wrote: »

If you haven't got the maturity to discuss this with a respectful attitude (i.e. one that would respect the beliefs of others), then kindly don't bother. Take that in the spirit in which it is said.

You're the one who told us we are empty inside without god. Respect is a two way street

Also you want respect? You're allowed to post strong views on christianty in the A&A forum and people are listining. Nobody has told you to "GTFO" or anything similar. That showes respect to me.

Knasher

A couple of points I'd like to make on your posts OP.

Donatello wrote: »

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

Just going through these in order, but I'm honestly wondering if you find god so fulfilling then why do you feel the pull of materialism and sensuality? To me that sounds like you don't actually find it fulfilling but you feel like you should so you're trying to convince yourself that you do.

Donatello wrote: »

Of course there is joy and peace in sunsets and swallows and rainbows. But these things, in themselves, do not satisfy all the aspirations and hopes of the human heart. They point to something more. Even in the best of times - perhaps especially in the best of times - there is this thought of 'Is this it? Is this as good as it gets?' An exam success, a new exciting job opportunity, a new girlfriend, a new house, holidays etc... None of these things, as good as they might be, fulfils absolutely. It would be too much to ask of any created thing of absolute and permanent fulfilment. None of these things last forever.

Sure, everything is temporary and nothing will make me happy forever. But so what? I'm going to die one day but there are a whole lot of things in life that can make me happy even if it is only for a while. Surely the best use of my time is constantly looking for new things to try and experience, isn't that the very definition of living life. Now lets imagine that I find that imaginary thing that can completely fulfil me, am I really better off? If I have everything I want in life, does my future really hold any meaning any more?

Donatello wrote: »

Why the litany of angry posts on this thread?

Litany of angry posts? Well most of the posts started out describing the things that make us happy. Which you then belittled because they weren't the one thing that makes you happy. Then people tried to explain why god doesn't do it for them, which you responded to with something along the lines of "god is awesome and you're going to burn in hell forever". Maybe it's just my perspective but to me it looks like people are doing their very best to be patient with you.

Donatello wrote: »

No. The litany of smart remarks, really just a form of aggression, confirms that I am on to something. I have a lot of insight into human psychology, and this strikes me as a form of psychological defense mechanism - I'm getting a bit too close to the ultimate reality for some people, and the natural defense is, rather than confront the reality, to mock and scorn the messenger so that one doesn't have to face that fear within oneself, to face up to the big white elephant in the room. I expect more mockery and scorn after this post, which only goes to confirm what I am saying.

Yes I'd imagine that you will get some mockery and scorn after a post like that. To me it absolutely stinks of arrogance, you imply that the things that people enjoy are silly and pointless and when they get annoyed you declare their annoyance to be your victory. If I went to mass this Sunday and insulted god in the church I'd imagine people would be rather annoyed with me. Would that annoyance be proof that that their beliefs are wrong or that I'm an arrogant idiot?

Donatello wrote: »

I have to say that all the non-religious people I know, including family members and friends, live what I call a quiet desperation.

Strange, as I read your posts I felt the exact same thing.

Zillah

Donatello wrote: »

This link explains further the reality behind our human condition and this one the way to freedom.

lol, lovely website really:

In the context of a government that is fundamentally anti-Catholic, the news media and the entertainment industries are all fundamentally anti-Christian, and their underlying liberal agenda is to reduce the morality of this country to the lowest common denominator of secular hedonism. In the language of atheistic politicobabble, this is called “diversity.”

Filthy atheists and their liberal agenda and their 'diversity'.

Oh, and this one is more than a little ironic for an article that lambasts Western civilisation:

And it should be perfectly obvious that the cultural values which lead to sin—values such as pride, greed, blame, competition, and self-indulgence—are spread rampantly by popular entertainment and sports.