Gardaí want 'mollycoddled' Reserve abolished

ZoneAlarm · 18-04-2011 10:44pm

Zambia wrote: »

What is the percentage of serving members in the GRA?

Dont think you will find the answer to that unless someone with inside info would say, i would say a big % are.

Zambia · 18-04-2011 10:48pm

Really here 98% are and the police association will happily tell you that. Would it be close to that figure?

ZoneAlarm · 18-04-2011 11:36pm

They say on their site 11,500 members but i would say its much lower than that, as the force is prob around 13,500.

ZoneAlarm · 18-04-2011 11:41pm

Well by the looks of it i think the Minister of Justice is fed up at this stage for the past 5 yrs, the GRA looking to get rid of the Reserve force.

Independent.ie
Shatter calls on gardai to accept reserve force
Minister criticises vote for abolition

By Tom Brady Security Editor
Thursday April 14 2011

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter last night urged rank-and-file gardai to drop their five-year campaign of opposition to the Garda Reserve.

He said gardai should encourage the part-time volunteers and recognise the role they played in policing the community.

In a strongly-worded comment at the annual conference of the Garda Representative Association in Westport, Co Mayo, yesterday, Mr Shatter said he was disappointed to read about the conference vote calling for the abolition of the reserve.

He said full-time gardai were concerned when the reserve was being established in 2006 that it would interfere with recruitment and prevent an expansion of the force.

But the strength of the force jumped last year to almost 15,000 at one point, a substantial increase since 2006.

The minister said he supported the reserve. "I would have hoped that such voluntary, communal and committed support would have been welcomed by members of the force."

The minister pointed out that what was originally the FCA and now known as the Army Reserve was unequivocally valued as a key component of the Defence Forces.

"Our part-time soldiers participate in training operations and are treated with respect by members of the Defence Forces," he said.

"A similar respect and welcome should be given by the gardai to the Garda Reserve."

Sour

He regarded the abolition vote at the conference as counterproductive. "It has the potential to sour relations between the two," he said.

Mr Shatter also revealed new legislation to tackle white-collar crime would be published around Easter.

In relation to the introduction of police bail, he said it was not intended to hold suspects for longer but would allow the clock to be suspended and the suspect released on bail while gardai could carry out further inquiries.

He told delegates the "rape tape" remarks, concerning gardai on duty at the Corrib pipeline protests were offensive and wrong.

But he was also disappointed at the attempts by some involved in the Corrib dispute to exploit the incident with the aim of undermining trust in the gardai.

- Tom Brady Security Editor

Tyron Jara · 22-04-2011 12:09pm

It is my understanding that the GRA want to scrap the garda reserve because the full timers are sick of babaysitting them and think the money could be used better else where. I am currently waiting for a medical for the reserves and have been waiting over a year. The only reason I joined was because the embargo started the year I left school and I wanted to get expierence of the work the gardai do before recruitment started again.

Now I think scrapping the reserve is a bad idea. But I can fully understand the GRA concerns. I think they should stop GR recruitment now!! But theyshould keep the GR they already have and the government should allow the reserve more powers so they do not have to be "babaysat" anymore!!
This way they could use the money to recruit new full time gardai and have a GR force still in place with extra powers.

What do ye think?

TylerIE · 22-04-2011 5:09pm

Tyron Jara wrote: »

It is my understanding that the GRA want to scrap the garda reserve because the full timers are sick of babaysitting them and think the money could be used better else where. I am currently waiting for a medical for the reserves and have been waiting over a year. The only reason I joined was because the embargo started the year I left school and I wanted to get expierence of the work the gardai do before recruitment started again.

Now I think scrapping the reserve is a bad idea. But I can fully understand the GRA concerns. I think they should stop GR recruitment now!! But theyshould keep the GR they already have and the government should allow the reserve more powers so they do not have to be "babaysat" anymore!!
This way they could use the money to recruit new full time gardai and have a GR force still in place with extra powers.

What do ye think?

Why stop GR recruitment? do you mean stop taking on new reserves altogether or just replace those who leave?

Stopping taking on new GR members or freezing the membership wont mean that AGS can suddenly take on more regular members.

The amount spent on the GR is in real terms so nominal that the yearly cost (approx €3m) would only pay salaries for an extra 55ish Gardai... they would all have to be trained, kitted etc, and for over a year would also themselves have to be "mollycoddled".

Even if each of the approx 1000 reserve members only contributed 40 truly functional policing hours a year (5 major events), these are events that otherwise would have required regular members (realistically there wouldnt be overtime - it would mean taking time off their unit or TOIL), thats 40,000 hours. At a conservative estimate of €20 per hour, thats €800,000 of policing provided. Many reserve members would do way more than this, and despite being mollycoddled a lot, we can provide support to the regular members allowing them to focus.

I know you havnt mentioned overtime but that came up on Pat Kenny this morning I believe. Few guards I know take routine overtime - they could schedule more court on rest days, or do community policing, to clock up easy overtime but instead they all take time off in lou (?sp) rather than pay huge taxes and miss out on rest time. Some do take OT for special operations (Operation Anvil has been reported a lot in the media) and Reserves dont affect Anvil Operations - its not the fault of Reserves that its dried up.

ZoneAlarm · 22-04-2011 8:54pm

Tyron Jara wrote: »

It is my understanding that the GRA want to scrap the garda reserve because the full timers are sick of babaysitting them and think the money could be used better else where. I am currently waiting for a medical for the reserves and have been waiting over a year. The only reason I joined was because the embargo started the year I left school and I wanted to get expierence of the work the gardai do before recruitment started again.

Now I think scrapping the reserve is a bad idea. But I can fully understand the GRA concerns. I think they should stop GR recruitment now!! But theyshould keep the GR they already have and the government should allow the reserve more powers so they do not have to be "babaysat" anymore!!
This way they could use the money to recruit new full time gardai and have a GR force still in place with extra powers.

What do ye think?

At the start of 2005 when this all started it was said, there would be a Reserve force of 10% of the full time force it is not far of the 10% at this point, so why stop now that would mean that the 10% would never be achieved which defeats the proposed quota, so if they did stop now how many reserves would it hinder at this point in time, prob 300 / 500 roughly, what is that going to save not a lot really, what would it buy not a lot, also you are forgetting full time members need to be trained for 2/3 yrs, in that time the people that have been taken on for full time duty are still not going to be available for the beat in that period anyways.

gilly0512 · 22-04-2011 8:55pm

The Irish Independent ran an excellent editorial on this very topic in or around the time of the GRA Conference, the basic gist of which was that going forward the GRA would have to accept that certain Police duties should be carried out by Reserve members, as it made no sense to have highly trained officers carrying out mundane duties such as traffic management, point duty etc http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/gra-cant-have-it-both-ways-on-garda-numbers-2617842.html However the Reserve in its current format is not capable of carrying out even the most basic police duties due a lack of powers and the strange reluctance to even allow Reserves with a few years experience to patrol on their own. If the Reserve is to be allowed to free up the limited number of full time Gardai that we are currently left with from mundane Policing duties, then these issues will have to be sorted out asap.

Hooch · 22-04-2011 9:12pm

Tyron Jara wrote: »

It is my understanding that the GRA want to scrap the garda reserve because the full timers are sick of babaysitting them and think the money could be used better else where.

Funny that......the majority of members I know feel very positive about the reserve. We are happy with the way they function and the way they fall into the structure of AGS. The recruitment could be a bit tighter but they have improved dramatically in the last 12 months.

In regards the money.......the amount of money that the reserve force take up is so small it realistically wouldnt improve our situation on the ground in regards training or equipment.

As a full time member.......it appears to me only the higher executive of the GRA are against the reserve......the REAL on the front line members back it all the way.

ZoneAlarm · 22-04-2011 9:44pm

NGA wrote: »

Funny that......the majority of members I know feel very positive about the reserve. We are happy with the way they function and the way they fall into the structure of AGS. The recruitment could be a bit tighter but they have improved dramatically in the last 12 months.

In regards the money.......the amount of money that the reserve force take up is so small it realistically wouldnt improve our situation on the ground in regards training or equipment.

As a full time member.......it appears to me only the higher executive of the GRA are against the reserve......the REAL on the front line members back it all the way.

Well said m8 100% could not have put it better myself, straight from the horses mouth so to speak, and well said for the backing, i defo myself can see a big improvement from full time members accepting RG now, personally bigger improvements can only enhance the force as a whole.:)

Hooch · 22-04-2011 9:58pm

ZoneAlarm wrote: »

Well said m8 100% could not have put it better myself, straight from the horses mouth so to speak, and well said for the backing, i defo myself can see a big improvement from full time members accepting RG now, personally bigger improvements can only enhance the force as a whole.:)

We never had problems with the reserve idea.....it was the lack of proper back ground checks (which lead to a few langers getting in who are nearly all gone now), the lack of consultation with on the ground members (as in what the reserves should be doing) and the biggest issue with most was the fact a reserve got powers after a few weeks in t/more.....while students who had 6 months done got nothing.

Reserves have a place with AGS and will continue to do so for longer than I will serve as a member.....and rightly so.

ZoneAlarm · 22-04-2011 10:09pm

NGA wrote: »

We never had problems with the reserve idea.....it was the lack of proper back ground checks (which lead to a few langers getting in who are nearly all gone now), the lack of consultation with on the ground members (as in what the reserves should be doing) and the biggest issue with most was the fact a reserve got powers after a few weeks in t/more.....while students who had 6 months done got nothing.

Reserves have a place with AGS and will continue to do so for longer than I will serve as a member.....and rightly so.

Well said m8 yes agreed with what you said but i think it has tightened up a lot better now, yes i also think if the concept was looked at from our point of view, with the lack of powers etc, things could be a whole lot better for all concerned.

A lot of things have changed ie what the reserve can do as the portal was never updated, with regards to reserves been in vehicles as well, and also to some traffic offenses that where omitted by mistake, but they are aware of them now and hopefully they will be amended.

CaseyRyback · 24-04-2011 12:31pm

For those that continuously use the UK's Special Constabulary as the benchmark for what reserve policing should be, perhaps a little more research would be prudent.

While the powers and kit are identical for reserve and regular officers, duties, competence and attitude are not.

As SCs perform 4 hours per week and receive their training over a number of weekends, it takes many years before even the most basic competencies are achieved. Whilst this is understood by many SCs who are happy to be patient and be part of the team, there is nonetheless a large proportion who believe they could make the transition overnight from SC to PC with no additional training. This same type of Special often deems themself as above performing roles such a gaoler, station officer or scene/hospital guard citing a shortened tour of duty should mean action without the paperwork. This type of Special inevitably winds up being under-utilised having alienated the rest of their regular relief. The fault herein lies with the organisation, how it recruits, who it recruits and what it promises. Regular officers ideally require a full trained officer in the observer's seat, with a reservist manning a constant watch....not as happens all too frequently a Special in the observer's seat with a Regular in custody as the skipper is fearful the Special won't parade if they're always being used for the 'crap jobs'.

Helping the community and 'wanting to be part of the team' for many seems nothing more than lip-service to get past an interview.

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 5:27pm

CaseyRyback wrote: »

For those that continuously use the UK's Special Constabulary as the benchmark for what reserve policing should be, perhaps a little more research would be prudent.

While the powers and kit are identical for reserve and regular officers, duties, competence and attitude are not.

As SCs perform 4 hours per week and receive their training over a number of weekends, it takes many years before even the most basic competencies are achieved. Whilst this is understood by many SCs who are happy to be patient and be part of the team, there is nonetheless a large proportion who believe they could make the transition overnight from SC to PC with no additional training. This same type of Special often deems themself as above performing roles such a gaoler, station officer or scene/hospital guard citing a shortened tour of duty should mean action without the paperwork. This type of Special inevitably winds up being under-utilised having alienated the rest of their regular relief. The fault herein lies with the organisation, how it recruits, who it recruits and what it promises. Regular officers ideally require a full trained officer in the observer's seat, with a reservist manning a constant watch....not as happens all too frequently a Special in the observer's seat with a Regular in custody as the skipper is fearful the Special won't parade if they're always being used for the 'crap jobs'.

Helping the community and 'wanting to be part of the team' for many seems nothing more than lip-service to get past an interview.

Woooooooooow.... Well yet another opinion for the heap because that really is all it is.... Ones own opinion can lead to a persumsion of fact. But in true all it really is yet another opinionated opinion peddled with the title of research! Sorry Stephen Seagul

Hooch · 24-04-2011 5:37pm

munster4868 wrote: »

Woooooooooow.... Well yet another opinion for the heap because that really is all it is.... Ones own opinion can lead to a persumsion of fact. But in true all it really is yet another opinionated opinion peddled with the title of research! Sorry Stephen Seagul

With all due respect you are assuming that this poster doesn't know what he's talking about.......what if he is a serving PC in the UK???

Some of them problems were features in the GR....mostly gone now but the post makes sense.

ZoneAlarm · 24-04-2011 6:26pm

Personally i think there is a big difference in the uk system and the Irish one, they went across to look at the uk concept, thought it was great, then went in the opposite direction altogether, so its an in between nothing concept my personal opinion.

gilly0512 · 24-04-2011 6:52pm

CaseyRyback wrote: »

For those that continuously use the UK's Special Constabulary as the benchmark for what reserve policing should be, perhaps a little more research would be prudent.

While the powers and kit are identical for reserve and regular officers, duties, competence and attitude are not.

As SCs perform 4 hours per week and receive their training over a number of weekends, it takes many years before even the most basic competencies are achieved. Whilst this is understood by many SCs who are happy to be patient and be part of the team, there is nonetheless a large proportion who believe they could make the transition overnight from SC to PC with no additional training. This same type of Special often deems themself as above performing roles such a gaoler, station officer or scene/hospital guard citing a shortened tour of duty should mean action without the paperwork. This type of Special inevitably winds up being under-utilised having alienated the rest of their regular relief. The fault herein lies with the organisation, how it recruits, who it recruits and what it promises. Regular officers ideally require a full trained officer in the observer's seat, with a reservist manning a constant watch....not as happens all too frequently a Special in the observer's seat with a Regular in custody as the skipper is fearful the Special won't parade if they're always being used for the 'crap jobs'.

Helping the community and 'wanting to be part of the team' for many seems nothing more than lip-service to get past an interview.

CaseyRyback no argument with what your saying mate, however I doubt you will find many Reserves on here who expect full powers etc as soon as they attest. Also I seriously doubt that most Reserves would have a problem with the so called 'crap jobs', as things stand we wouldn't even be allowed to do them anyway, so chance would be a fine thing. What we all find so frustrating is that there is nothing in the form of progression in place for Garda Reserves, say as an example that once you complete your two year probationary period you would receive public order powers subject to training and assessment, after three years the power to search, after five years Independent Patrol status and so on. Basically there is nothing like that in place,as things stand you have the same token powers & responsibilities from when you attest to the day you leave, this is hopelessly inadequate and badly needs to be changed. As I have said constantly it is not all about more powers, but being allowed to stand on our own two feet.

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 7:00pm

NGA wrote: »

With all due respect you are assuming that this poster doesn't know what he's talking about.......what if he is a serving PC in the UK???

Some of them problems were features in the GR....mostly gone now but the post makes sense.

Well even if he served in the specials, it is still an opinion based on his / her experiences. An opinion isn't fact and that is all I was saying. In the same way the GRA overwhelming vote to abolish the Reserve is only their opinion along with their assumsion that we are a hindrance.

Hooch · 24-04-2011 7:05pm

munster4868 wrote: »

Well even if he served in the specials, it is still an opinion based on his / her experiences. An opinion isn't fact and that is all I was saying. In the same way the GRA overwhelming vote to abolish the Reserve is only their opinion along with their assumsion that we are a hindrance.

Fair enough

On the vote.....The GRA higher executive voted against the reserve......not the GRA. I'm member of the GRA.....I got no vote.

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 7:24pm

NGA wrote: »

Fair enough

On the vote.....The GRA higher executive voted against the reserve......not the GRA. I'm member of the GRA.....I got no vote.

Thanks... Really I am not trying to get at anyone here but everything that is been but forward here is only opinions and it does annoy me that some posts are put forward as FACT and really they aren't. I do respect the original poster but must disagree with the contents.
On the GRA,
I know, my own uncle was up there and is a member of the GRA and I did mention this fact in an earlier post that this vote was carried only by the people in the room and not the overall members of both AGS and the GRA.

Living in Ireland · 24-04-2011 7:34pm

munster4868 wrote: »

Thanks... Really I am not trying to get at anyone here but everything that is been but forward here is only opinions and it does annoy me that some posts are put forward as FACT and really they aren't. I do respect the original poster but must disagree with the contents.
On the GRA,
I know, my own uncle was up there and is a member of the GRA and I did mention this fact in an earlier post that this vote was carried only by the people in the room and not the overall members of both AGS and the GRA.

The GRA are effectively venting their frustrations that the police force is being watered down. Keep the Garda Reserve but they should be used in tandem to a decently sized full-time force. Alan Shatter had been trying to reduce the force when robberies and rapes have been on the rise. I personally would pay a higher interest rate on our sovereign debt than play around in a country becoming overwhelmed by violent crime.

CaseyRyback · 24-04-2011 8:03pm

munster4868 wrote: »

Well even if he served in the specials, it is still an opinion based on his / her experiences. An opinion isn't fact and that is all I was saying. In the same way the GRA overwhelming vote to abolish the Reserve is only their opinion along with their assumsion that we are a hindrance.

Opinion based on personal experience, what more do I need to qualify to partake in your reservist debate?

I agree that the reserves need to be better integrated if they are to perform a useful function to full-time members, but as it stands now I would support the GRA call to scrap it.

It would be interesting to see a poll taken from serving full-time mules to see what the consensus is on keeping the GR.

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 8:04pm

Living in Ireland wrote: »

The GRA are effectively venting their frustrations that the police force is being watered down. Keep the Garda Reserve but they should be used in tandem to a decently sized full-time force. Alan Shatter had been trying to reduce the force when robberies and rapes have been on the rise. I personally would pay a higher interest rate on our sovereign debt than play around in a country becoming overwhelmed by violent crime.

Yea, kinda agree but with the breakdown in our economic fortunes (the banking crisis) the stats speck for themselves, crime is on the rise, so you are faced with the situation, you have no money to increase health or security personal but crime overall and the deterioration in people's health are on the increase. We as a country are broke... We need to fix the banking problem but keep the country from detereating in the area of crime and health any further... I know people have their opinions regarding burning the bond holders etc etc but the new government are elected by the people and their decision on what they do has to be respected. All I can say is thank God for community spirit cause with the Red Cross and the Garda Reserve personal and all those other organisations out there helping out, we might just have been in a worse situation than we find ourselves .

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 8:11pm

CaseyRyback wrote: »

Opinion based on personal experience, what more do I need to qualify to partake in your reservist debate?

I agree that the reserves need to be better integrated if they are to perform a useful function to full-time members, but as it stands now I would support the GRA call to scrap it.

It would be interesting to see a poll taken from serving full-time mules to see what the consensus is on keeping the GR.

As one regular member said to me, the GRA should concentrate on delivering for the ordinary member on stuff that means something to them instead of bring up the usual crap that ultimately isn't the opinion of the overall membership of the GRA, but as he said, he expects nothing else from them... He pays into it every week cause that's the way but overall he feels they are useless! Not my words or opinion but his.

CaseyRyback · 24-04-2011 8:20pm

munster4868 wrote: »

As one regular member said to me, the GRA should concentrate on delivering for the ordinary member on stuff that means something to them instead of bring up the usual crap that ultimately isn't the opinion of the overall membership of the GRA, but as he said, he expects nothing else from them... He pays into it every week cause that's the way but overall he feels they are useless! Not my words or opinion but his.

So you criticise me for giving an opinion based on personal experience and in reply quote someone else's opinion based on experience you don't have?

He pays in for the same reason everyone pays in, legal cover.

As for delivering for the ordinary member, I would suggest that in such austere times, any money (including that saved by possibly disbanding the GR) that can be pumped into frontline policing is money well spent.

ZoneAlarm · 24-04-2011 8:34pm

CaseyRyback wrote: »

So you criticise me for giving an opinion based on personal experience and in reply quote someone else's opinion based on experience you don't have?

He pays in for the same reason everyone pays in, legal cover.

As for delivering for the ordinary member, I would suggest that in such austere times, any money (including that saved by possibly disbanding the GR) that can be pumped into frontline policing is money well spent.

This is defo a full time member and NOT a member of a Uk based force and that is my opinion.

And if they did scrap the reserves what would they do then, i would love to hear this reply, for what they save as NGA has said would do NOTHING to help the full time force, they would also be down another 1,000 members, extra help regardless of powers.

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 8:55pm

CaseyRyback wrote: »

Opinion based on personal experience, what more do I need to qualify to partake in your reservist debate?

I agree that the reserves need to be better integrated if they are to perform a useful function to full-time members, but as it stands now I would support the GRA call to scrap it.

It would be interesting to see a poll taken from serving full-time mules to see what the consensus is on keeping the GR.

All I was saying is that sometimes people's posts come across as fact and let's be honest there not... It's an opinion and I do respect that and your opinion. Running polls and seeing this or that isn't going to serve any purpose only to give one side of the situation the upper hand, and that really isn't good. Like I said, the law is the law and the government is an elected body of the people and that has to be respected. I mightn't agree with everything in law but I do carry out it's function. The day will cone where the role of the reserve will be expanded so my thought is that if I was a regular member in the GRA I would like to shape that future instead of shouting it down from the outside. Only my opinion.

CaseyRyback · 24-04-2011 9:04pm

ZoneAlarm wrote: »

This is defo a full time member and NOT a member of a Uk based force and that is my opinion.

And if they did scrap the reserves what would they do then, i would love to hear this reply, for what they save as NGA has said would do NOTHING to help the full time force, they would also be down another 1,000 members, extra help regardless of powers.

If they binned the GR, and spent the dosh on taking on even a handful of regular members, that in my view would be money well spent.

As for my position or service, that's neither here nor there and I choose not to disclose that on an open forum. I am not against the concept of the GR but think it is a waste of money in its present format as it is of limited assistance to the regular force and the community in general.

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 9:07pm

CaseyRyback wrote: »

So you criticise me for giving an opinion based on personal experience and in reply quote someone else's opinion based on experience you don't have?

He pays in for the same reason everyone pays in, legal cover.

As for delivering for the ordinary member, I would suggest that in such austere times, any money (including that saved by possibly disbanding the GR) that can be pumped into frontline policing is money well spent.

I respect your opinion even though I disagree with it. I just posted someone else's opinion and never said that I researched it and it was fact... Now let's explore your opinion on scrapping the reserve. Is it as easy as one day the minister or commissioner waking up and well saying let's scrap the reserve. Can I offer a GRA member a bit of advise. Ask your GRA rep to look into how easy it would be to do that and you will find out that the knock on effect to AGS isn't going to be simple. That is a statement of FACT. Like what was said by the current minister to the GRA is that they should move on and stop calling for the scraping of the Reserve as it is very counter productive to the community spirit that a member of AGS is to be encouraging!!
As for saving monies... Well maybe the Reserve Army and Reserve navy should be scrapped as both those structures cost way way more than 3m p/a to run and I don't think we are going to war anytime soon... As for the Reserve they are contributing in hard currency in the protect and function of the state.

munster4868 · 24-04-2011 9:16pm

CaseyRyback wrote: »

If they binned the GR, and spent the dosh on taking on even a handful of regular members, that in my view would be money well spent.

As for my position or service, that's neither here nor there and I choose not to disclose that on an open forum. I am not against the concept of the GR but think it is a waste of money in its present format as it is of limited assistance to the regular force and the community in general.

Ah, limited assistance to the regular force... Well, can u imagine what the GRA would say if we had more of a role.:eek:
I don't really think the GRA will ever be happy and do you know what: that's their job: so I respect that. But my respect stops when they air in public their opinions about good members of the community. You are among a minority I believe, but as the Tayto add day's there is always one:rolleyes:
Lookit, if the GRA had there heads screwed on they would embrace that reserves and use them as a tool in getting more for their members. We are the community and even if you don't want to admit it, we carry alot of weigh in our opinions both at local level (community) and at policy level (government)
Thank anyhow for your opinion a truthfully I do respect it and hopefully one day your opinion might change towards the reserves. Maybe, one might be there for you in your hour of need and then you might appreciate it then.

Gardaí want 'mollycoddled' Reserve abolished

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