Gardaí want 'mollycoddled' Reserve abolished

msg11

First off the mark with this question, what is the figure of Garda at this event ? Is it just a few ?

Also, I don't think they would be so 'mollycoddled' if they were given some more powers. As someone said, dress them up but don't give them any real power.

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Article

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http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0412/garda.html

Rank and file gardaí have voted unanimously at their annual conference in Mayo to seek the abolition of the Garda Reserve.

Members of the gardaí say full-time members of the gardai have been 'babysitting' these part-time reservists who have to be 'mollycoddled' and looked after by 'real' gardaí.

The GRA conference was told the Garda Reserve costs €3m year, money which could be spent on the recruitment of over a hundred fulltime gardaí.

Delegates at the annual conference have also passed a motion demanding there be no more high-speed pursuits by garda drivers until the regulations are changed.

They say that members of the gardaí involved in these pursuits have found themselves under investigation by the Ombudsman Commission and before the courts for doing their job.

The GRA has also said it is concerned that most of the garda's annual budget will be spent on big policing events next month such as the visits of US President Barack Obama and Britain's Queen Elizabeth.

The association is due to seek an assurance from Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan at the association's annual conference in Mayo this afternoon that there will be funding available for necessary regular police work.

Gardaí at the conference say they are very aware of the security threat posed by international terrorists and dissident republicans to the visits of the US President and the British Queen next month.

They say that while the PSNI has been given an extra €300m to tackle the dissident republican threat this year, the budget for the Garda's Operation Anvil has been cut from €21m to €10m.

All Garda leave is expected to be cancelled and millions of euro will be spent on Garda overtime next month.

However, GRA President Damien McCarthy says the Association is worried that there will not be enough money left for regular policing once the dignitaries have left.

Delegates at the GRA conference have also reacted with dismay to the Government's announcement of further pain.

Members of the traffic corps have said that existing cutbacks are already being reflected in the increase in deaths on the roads.

Officers from the Bureau of Fraud Investigation say it is simply not possible to conduct complex financial investigations such as the one in Anglo Irish Bank with less resources.

Jeanxx

I read the Examiner article online this morning:

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/gardai-call-for-abolition-of-reserve-500943.html

My reaction as a reserve member for nearly 3 years myself is that it was a nasty article...

I joined the reserve with the hope of experiencing what a Garda experiences on the job & for it to hopefully benefit me whenever they recruit again (I'm not holding my breath...) & my experience of it has been mainly good... although I don't think it works in it's current format. I think if they don't abolish it then they should reform it because we aren't utilised enough.

The article on the Irish Examiner website however was nasty from my POV and from doing this for basically free the last three years (which I signed up to do) there is not even a thanks. I understand completely the frustration of there being no money & x, y & z is getting cut & I also understand the disillusionment that can go with it but a lot of the negative/nasty comments about the reserves comes from some petulant Guards...

I want to actually help assist & feel like I'm doing something that's beneficial for the guards that I work with, the people on the street & myself but I don't feel like I am, I don't know about other reserves but I think it's the general feeling... I do also understand like I said above that funding needs to go to a lot of other things in the organisation.

Get rid of us, fair enough if that's what the majority want... but at least a thanks for doing what we did voluntarily would be fair.

Just my two cents.

The GRA don't speak for me in wanting the Reserves done away with. Reform them for our good and their own.

TylerIE

msg11 wrote: »

First off the mark with this question, what is the figure of Garda at this event ? Is it just a few ?

Also, I don't think they would be so 'mollycoddled' if they were given some more powers. As someone said, dress them up but don't give them any real power.

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Article

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http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0412/garda.html

Rank and file gardaí have voted unanimously at their annual conference in Mayo to seek the abolition of the Garda Reserve.

Members of the gardaí say full-time members of the gardai have been 'babysitting' these part-time reservists who have to be 'mollycoddled' and looked after by 'real' gardaí.

The GRA conference was told the Garda Reserve costs €3m year, money which could be spent on the recruitment of over a hundred fulltime gardaí.
.....
The GRA has also said it is concerned that most of the garda's annual budget will be spent on big policing events next month such as the visits of US President Barack Obama and Britain's Queen Elizabeth.
.......
The association is due to seek an assurance from Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan at the association's annual conference in Mayo this afternoon that there will be funding available for necessary regular police work.
...........
Gardaí at the conference say they are very aware of the security threat posed by international terrorists and dissident republicans to the visits of the US President and the British Queen next month.
..............
All Garda leave is expected to be cancelled and millions of euro will be spent on Garda overtime next month.
..........
However, GRA President Damien McCarthy says the Association is worried that there will not be enough money left for regular policing once the dignitaries have left.
..............
Delegates at the GRA conference have also reacted with dismay to the Government's announcement of further pain.
...............
Members of the traffic corps have said that existing cutbacks are already being reflected in the increase in deaths on the roads.

100 full time Gardai for 3 million euro???? I strongly doubt it considering there would be payments during training, annual leave, night time and weekend allowances, pension costs, supervision, e tc! Maybe 150 for €3 million but thats pushing it.

And even if there were 100 more regular members, those 100 full time Gardai would give about 160 hrs a months service each.... so 16,000 hrs a month combined.

The 1400 reserve would give MINIMUM 16 hrs a month meaning a total of 22,400 hours... with many giving way over the 16 hours and each additional hour being at a cost of €0 to the taxpayer. Plus the €3million spent on the reserve includes about 3 - 5 Gardai full time working with the Reserve, plus a few admin staff.... So that leaves probably about €2.75m (at most) being spent on the Reserve... If the reserve were abolished those members would still have to be paid.

Granted 1 reserve hour is rarely as effective as one hour of a regular member but if the reserve were reformed the support given to Regular Gardai would be far in excess of the cost.

Instead of pushing against, could the GRA not push for an end to mollycoddling?

gardapa

Instead of pushing against, could the GRA not push for an end to mollycoddling?[/QUOTE]


Dead right its time the garda reserve was looked at and how it could be improved...the specials in the UK seem to be working well, it’s time the reserve went that way. If not then I agree with the gra and other members in the abolishment of the reserve. At present it is a waste of money with little or no output to the organisation or society.
I am a reserve for the last 2 years with the intention of joining fulltime. The 3million a year is being thrown down the drain atm and could be used for more important issues.
The gra, fulltime members and reserve members are the ones who truly know how badly set up the reserve is, these are the people the government should be listening to. Different people on here are going to have different views on the garda reserve; it’s all about how the garda reserves individually affects them.

audidiesel

the problem with a part time reserve is that they cannot do any major policework. if a reserve gets caught with a serious incident, they cant be expected to spend the time required to deal with it on a voluntary basis. this "mollycoddling" is because you have to have full time guards around them in case anything comes up with that they cant handle. thats an inherent waste of resources

ive no great problem with the reserves as such, but essentially they are there to make it look like there are more guards around than there are. its a government pr stunt. thats not to detract from the people in it. the vast majority's of whom's motives are good and to be commended. its just the implementation is highly flawed and unlikely to be resolved anytime soon.

in my own opinion, the reserves should be abolished

TylerIE

audidiesel wrote: »

the problem with a part time reserve is that they cannot do any major policework. if a reserve gets caught with a serious incident, they cant be expected to spend the time required to deal with it on a voluntary basis. this "mollycoddling" is because you have to have full time guards around them in case anything comes up with that they cant handle. thats an inherent waste of resources

ive no great problem with the reserves as such, but essentially they are there to make it look like there are more guards around than there are. its a government pr stunt. thats not to detract from the people in it. the vast majority's of whom's motives are good and to be commended. its just the implementation is highly flawed and unlikely to be resolved anytime soon.

in my own opinion, the reserves should be abolished

Thank you for your honest feedback.

I dont think anybody would advocate a Reserve Garda or Gardai leading a major investigation or incident. However having Reserve Gardai utilized fully for the basic everyday tasks - public order, minor traffic, shoplifting, assist with community policing, etc could free up regular Gardai to focus on the areas where their vast training could perhaps be utilized fully.

In the UK specials take on all of the above, in addition to providing "bodies in uniforms" for major events etc...

Even from an intelligence and geographic knowledge viewpoint - Special Constables in the UK are considered a resource in terms of being eyes and ears in the community. If Reserve Gardai were utilised fully we would have 1400 extra people serving in their neighbouring district - instead of Gardai from another division, normally 50+miles away with minimum local geographic knowledge, which then has to be learned.

At the moment if a rural station has a crime scene to preserve (e.g. Sudden death) on a Friday or Saturday night there could be 2 Gardai tied up there, 1 or 2 in station, and that means depending on unit size only one or two left to do notification of the family, answer emergency calls, make inquiries and the normal public order stuff, etc... Reserves are not there to take up the investigation, but could be used for many of the above roles - communications, public office, scene preservation, patrol, answering many calls, public order etc!

Would it not be great to have reserves who would be able to take the pressure off in these situations? Overtime is well and good but is that the best use of public finances??? Paying two or three Gardai 8 hours overtime to direct traffic at a local fair or rally or parade? or worse still (as does happen) having Gardai in for these mundane duties then having time owed, meaning that they are instead taken off regular duties on another date?

Iv met some of the regular members who are fundamentally anti-Reserve, but they are d*mn glad of someone watching their back when theres 10 teenagers fighting, or when they are short staffed, or to cover them in Public Office or Communications so they get their refs

Bosh

I agree that the majority of the Reserve are good people whether it's with a view to becoming a full -time member or those looking to 'do their bit'

The difficulty is, as with so many things that happened over the last few years, it was ill conceived and poorly implemented.

It was all part of Micheal McDowells reign, or perhaps personal crusade would be more accurate, which saw the unapposed introduction of the Garda Síochána Act, parts of which will yet be struck down as unconstitutional, introduction of the Ombudsman with all it's inherent flaws, the tootless Inspectorate and of course the famous 14,000.

As with everything, all policy was politically formulated & driven, all for the sound byte and media kudos.

I can only speak from personal observations, but the Reserve seem to be used soley as another yellow jacket on the street and to beef up numbers at events. They are being utilised as a stopgap for Supers budgets - why take a fulltime in on overtime when you can stick a Reserve on a point? As long as they are within view of a fulltime they see no problem with it.

I think the Reserves themselves know that things are not as they should be, but they don't seem to have a voice?

I may stand corrected on this of course.

MagicSean

We have a great reserve in our station. He is invaluable. Unfortunately we also have ones who think they are in Sarsky and Hutch. The system definitely needs some reform, especially with the recruitment and training aspect.

TylerIE

k_mac wrote: »

We have a great reserve in our station. He is invaluable. Unfortunately we also have ones who think they are in Sarsky and Hutch. The system definitely needs some reform, especially with the recruitment and training aspect.

Hi K_mac,

Just curious - and its worth asking this publicly - what makes that particular reserve so useful? Is it that he turns up regularly? does as directed? has learned to be independent in some issues or?

MagicSean

lst wrote: »

Hi K_mac,

Just curious - and its worth asking this publicly - what makes that particular reserve so useful? Is it that he turns up regularly? does as directed? has learned to be independent in some issues or?

He has a great local knowledge, more than most in the station, because he has lived and worked in the division all his life. He's never afraid to help and takes the initiative at the right time but he also knows when he should be just observing.

Old_-_School

I think the Garda Reserve should be armed. You could hardly call them mollycoddled then.
The real reason the Gardaí want the Garda Reserve abolished because it affected their overtime.

Officer Giggles

Old_-_School wrote: »

I think the Garda Reserve should be armed. You could hardly call them mollycoddled then.
The real reason the Gardaí want the Garda Reserve abolished because it affected their overtime.

most gardaí have not experienced any cut in overtime due to the presence of reserves and most gardaí think the GRA are an absolute waste of time

eroo

I would like to see what the full time members on here think of this?

Spartan09

Officer Giggles wrote: »

most gardaí have not experienced any cut in overtime due to the presence of reserves

I can only speak about my experiences in my station but the presence or absence of a reserve on shift has absolutely no bearing whatsover on the availability of overtime to the Gardai I work with. I often stay on with the member I have been walking with for the extra 3 hours OT on a Friday or Saturday night and the feedback I always get is that its good to have an extra set of hands when things kick off. The response of the Sgts to me offering to stay on is usually "great an extra set of hands to help out and it doesnt cost us anything in OT". Extra I think is the operative word, not instead of, or comparable to or as useful as.

I was talking with a member while out on the beat last weekend about the general perception of Reserves in the station and she said that it was generally positive with one or two exceptions, we agreed that the Reserves who had common sense fitted in well with their units and those that dont have it... I can categorically say that from my perspective I have been welcomed by my unit on every single day / night I have gone in and have been thanked on the way home for coming in. Yes there are ways that the Reserve could be improved, to benefit of the Reserve members and just as important the full time Members that we are there to assist.

Delancey

The new found concern for the health of AGS budget shown by the GRA is , ahem , ' touching ' but also highly disingenous.
The GRA bleat about the circa 3 million per year cost of the Reserve - fine and dandy I guess but where were the GRA when the same amount of money was being spent on using 50 or 60 Gardai as chauffeurs for ministers ?

Officer Giggles

wonder if the GRA have their free bar curtousy of their members subs again this year

Eru

eroo wrote: »

I would like to see what the full time members on here think of this?

We think the GRA should stop blaming the reserve for all our woes and start blaming themselves!

(I do thinks theres a degree of babysitting the reserves but thats because they are so limited in their powers. Reserves should be given far more power, if not full then at least the bread and butter stuff.)

gilly0512

Folks I have said this on here before and I will say it again, The Garda Reserve in its present guise serves little or no purpose. I have been a Reserve for well over three years now, and the longer I do this, the more frustrated I get at how little we can actually do. When the Garda Reserve was brought into being back in 2007, it was allegedly modelled on the English part time policing model better known as Police Specials. However there the comparison ends, as while Specials are fit for purpose Police Officers, we are this horrible watered down version that literally cannot do anything on our own. The Garda Reserve will only ever work if Reserves are allowed to stand on their own two feet and not having to be constantly babysat. By that I mean letting qualified Reserves (at least two years service) patrol on their own and giving them fit for purpose powers. Surely it would be a huge advantage to any station if you had at least two trusted Reserves who could go out on the beat on their own, man the public office, radio room etc without having to have a full time Garda with them at all times. This is the single most important point, if we are not to be trusted to do things on our own the Garda Reserve in my opinion will never make any difference to An Garda Siochana. Finally we are told that following on from the Garda Inspectorate report from last year, that there is currently a review of the Garda Reserve in progress. While I won't hold my breath, I would hope that the powers that be will finally see fit to at least make some of the changes that the Garda Reserve is crying out for, which will at least give us some chance going forward.

PS Link to the Met Specials website
http://www.met.police.uk/careers/specials/index.html

eroo

Eru wrote: »

We think the GRA should stop blaming the reserve for all our woes and start blaming themselves!

(I do thinks theres a degree of babysitting the reserves but thats because they are so limited in their powers. Reserves should be given far more power, if not full then at least the bread and butter stuff.)

If we were given the POA it would be of major benefit to our role, as well lessening the workload on Gardai with minor cases such as sec 4, 6, 8 etc. Sec 8 would be a big one for us.

WalterMitty

my mate does the reserve in uk and has full powers. He was telling me about the training they got to use mace etc. Our reserve need more powers. They can be a great asset if used properly. I think a lot of garda have fears that the reserve will eat into their OT in future etc.

audidiesel

WalterMitty wrote: »

I think a lot of garda have fears that the reserve will eat into their OT in future etc.

side point but what ot? Apart from armed operations I'm lucky to see three hours a month, and that's in Limerick city centre.

Giving reserves powers under the public order act sounds like a good idea, but then you have to account for court, possibly statement taking etc. For a part time unpaid volunteer that's an awful lot to ask for. As for traffic accidents, that's the same thing with abstracts and possible court appearances.

I just don't see how you can get a part time volunteer to do a full time job. The Garda budget is spread so thin as it is, I honestly think the reserve is an ill conceived luxury we can't afford.

For the three million you could buy about 200 patrol cars (costing each at about €15,000 as the state wouldn't be paying taxes etc). To my mind that would be a better investment.

(I'm not having a go At individual reserves here, I just think the system is flawed through no fault of theirs)

gilly0512

audidiesel wrote: »

side point but what ot? Apart from armed operations I'm lucky to see three hours a month, and that's in Limerick city centre.

Giving reserves powers under the public order act sounds like a good idea, but then you have to account for court, possibly statement taking etc. For a part time unpaid volunteer that's an awful lot to ask for. As for traffic accidents, that's the same thing with abstracts and possible court appearances.

I just don't see how you can get a part time volunteer to do a full time job. The Garda budget is spread so thin as it is, I honestly think the reserve is an ill conceived luxury we can't afford.

For the three million you could buy about 200 patrol cars (costing each at about €15,000 as the state wouldn't be paying taxes etc). To my mind that would be a better investment.

(I'm not having a go At individual reserves here, I just think the system is flawed through no fault of theirs)

Audidiesel while there is some truth in what you say, it can also be said that our equivalent in the UK does work, so why does it not work here? We see it so often in this country in that we try to copy something from the UK, yet we generally end up making a dogs dinner of it. While I may be a Reserve I am not an apologist for Reserves, however I would love to see the concept work, but fear that it never will, as there is neither the political will nor the desire from Garda Management to see it work?

Dermot Illogical

eroo wrote: »

I would like to see what the full time members on here think of this?

OK, here you go...
I think the reserves are a good idea, but they should be given more training and independence so that they are in a position to assist without requiring babysitters.
They have no impact on overtime that I can see. There isn't any, so how could they?
And in the 20+ years I've been in this job the GRA has never failed to be anything other than a complete embarrassment. They seem to exist solely to create headlines that make gardai look like gob****es. Bring back the Feds.

Timeforchange1

It's time to start an association for all members of the force with the rank of reserve garda. We have no voice. When we get a voice maybe then we will be listened to.

CO19

Looks like the GRA's demand for the Reserve to be got rid of has fallen on deaf ears again,see the 4th paragraph down on the article http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0413/garda.html

gardapa

@Giving reserves powers under the public order act sounds like a good idea, but then you have to account for court, possibly statement taking etc. For a part time unpaid volunteer that's an awful lot to ask for. As for traffic accidents, that's the same thing with abstracts and possible court appearances.

I just don't see how you can get a part time volunteer to do a full time job. The Garda budget is spread so thin as it is, I honestly think the reserve is an ill conceived luxury we can't afford.

For someone like myself waiting to join fulltime I would happily give my time to the reserves to appear in court or do more hours a month. AGS is all I want to do and anything else is a compramise. Come September I am going to decide either to continue my education or give my time to the reserve....sadly though I know I will choose education because atm Id be a fool to give the reserves my preference. It needs to be looked at sooner rather than later. If more was expected from reserves it would show who is dedicated and whos not...right now it shows nothing other than an interest shown in the job.


@It's time to start an association for all members of the force with the rank of reserve garda. We have no voice. When we get a voice maybe then we will be listened to.

There is a member on this website( Zonealarm) who has taking the steps in trying to organise an association for reserves although it is moving very slow. With the support of other reserves it could be achieved. Contact him for more details.

goldie fish

RT66 wrote: »

Bring back the Feds.

Don't mention the war :rolleyes:

goldie fish

Timeforchange1 wrote: »

It's time to start an association for all members of the force with the rank of reserve garda. We have no voice. When we get a voice maybe then we will be listened to.

Do you know how difficult it was to set up the GRA and the sarcrifices that were made to create it?

I'm not in the GR, but i'd be pretty sure there is something in your contract about membership of representative organisations, and how you are not permitted to be in one.

Even after more than 15 years, the Army Reserve Rep org are realising their objectives are futile, while the government insist on keeping them outside the Arbitration and Conciliation framework.
If the Govt decides it does not want to listen, a rep. org is pointless.

ZoneAlarm

goldie fish wrote: »

Do you know how difficult it was to set up the GRA and the sarcrifices that were made to create it?

I'm not in the GR, but i'd be pretty sure there is something in your contract about membership of representative organisations, and how you are not permitted to be in one.

Even after more than 15 years, the Army Reserve Rep org are realising their objectives are futile, while the government insist on keeping them outside the Arbitration and Conciliation framework.
If the Govt decides it does not want to listen, a rep. org is pointless.

While in theory you are correct in some parts, "BUT" not in all im pretty sure there will be something set up, it just takes time that's all, wheels turn very slowly in the system im sure you are very aware of this.

But something will be set up in some form or shape.

Officer Giggles

goldie fish wrote: »

Do you know how difficult it was to set up the GRA and the sarcrifices that were made to create it?

I'm not in the GR, but i'd be pretty sure there is something in your contract about membership of representative organisations, and how you are not permitted to be in one.

Even after more than 15 years, the Army Reserve Rep org are realising their objectives are futile, while the government insist on keeping them outside the Arbitration and Conciliation framework.
If the Govt decides it does not want to listen, a rep. org is pointless.

The only sacrifice the GRA needs to make is their egos, the local lads are great but the likes of the bearded one is an absolute waster